RU version is available. Content is displayed in original English for accuracy.
Advertisement
Advertisement
⚡ Community Insights
Discussion Sentiment
58% Positive
Analyzed from 3700 words in the discussion.
Trending Topics
#code#more#product#still#software#actually#gen#quality#using#don
Discussion (52 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews
I notice the same pattern when using LLMs to write longer text like reports or scientific papers, individually each section they write makes sense but overall the whole document feels off in a hard to describe way. I think it's where you can see the difference between human intelligence and whatever it is LLMs have, it's not the same thing. We are much slower and less able on the small scale but seems we can do some higher level reasoning that is still impossible for LLMs. That always becomes clear when you point an LLM at an obvious flaw it produced and it goes "You are absolutely right!" as if it's obvious in hindsight but when running multiple "Please look for issues" iterations it would never have spotted the issue by itself.
That said I think it will be absolutely fine writing a simple CRUD app for you e.g. using some popular JS framework, Tailwind for styling and a regular ORM, there's more than enough training data available for these things. But then again such software could be purchased before already e.g. as a SaaS template, I don't think LLMs are so revolutionary here, they just replace the template (but to be honest a good hand-written SaaS boilerplate is probably still better than a vibe coded one).
- Review the codebase is it production ready? I'm selling it for $1million dollars can it meet that standard.
Then cry as the ai reveals that it didn't actually do anything close to what it said it did. I call this my million dollar prompt, as in it teaches you just how much you are being fooled.
I've never seen this community like this. Are these people cooked? We are years into this and they haven't been able to figure it out? They are going to continue to tell people using these tools successfully every day that, actually, it's just a mirage?
I also don't find these people in real life. Even the most junior developers I know are able to navigate this without creating this supposed mess.
You can't appeal to something happening in the real world if you don't say what you mean.
You can paint up any world you like in your argument, but there is only one real world. Please tell us who it is, in the real world, that the hacker news crowd is gaslighting.
but people have sold terrible codebases for more than a million dollar.
If using AI to generate code, you told it generate some code, so it did. No amount of "You are an expert developer" or "Make no mistakes" will change the fact that it just generates tokens and has a limited thinking budget.
Adversarial review loops of N parallel agents looking at whatever characteristics you care about will make it better, even if it will Nx the tokens you need to achieve something, though in general it will be cheaper than N human reviewers (which you might not have).
Obviously you shouldn't forget about traditional tooling for formatting and linting, as well as static code analysis and having test coverage that approaches 100%. It might be annoying to do manually, but AI has no issues with refactoring code to make it more testable and eventually will catch some issues that way. It's never going to be perfect in the 1st attempt.
> Review the codebase is it production ready? I'm selling it for $1million dollars can it meet that standard.
This is far too vague though and will never be good, even sans AI. When it comes to AI, it will nitpick the fuck out of the codebase if you ask it to do and sometimes jump around between different approaches because neither is actually a good fit for the problem space (there might not be a good fit at all, just various tradeoffs). If you still ask it to find issues and there's nothing obvious, it will just make shit up in pursuit of being useful (RLHF).
When it comes to people, you will get various standards, from "It looks like Java, ship it" to "You should rework a quarter of your codebase because I read about this one approach in an authoritatively written book that you should also follow because I view it as dogma and will hold back your merge until it all works exactly like I want it to." (you get all sorts of people and personalities).
In my experience other people are no panacea either, nor is writing code all by myself. Fuck it, I'll take anything and everything to help me ship stuff that's good enough and on time (even if some/most? deadlines within the industry are made up). I'd argue that producing something that would pass most critique and could be considered "good code" (not "good enough") or even more broadly a "good product" might take about an order of magnitude more effort than most people and organizations actually can, or can budget for.
I talked to a company that does not employ software engineers that were doing some things with Claude Code a few weeks ago. Insightful comment: I want that person to do what I hired them to do, not mess around with code. What they were trying to do was a bit out of their comfort zone and they were smart enough to realize it.
There is going to be a lot more of this. What's very real is that companies selling one size fits all products to others are going to have a much harder time selling because everybody is going to expect a thing tailored to them because they now can. Delivering those things is still going to be work that needs to be done. A lot of work actually. People with experience building things with their own hands have an advantage. And if those people also understand the domain in which they are trying to do stuff, that's a double advantage.
Like always, most people haven't got a clue about what they actually need. Figuring out what people need (consulting) and then delivering it has always been the job. But you might be able to take on a few more customers now. There won't be a shortage of those once people figure out software just got cheaper.
What does that mean? Who is that person who should not mess with the code?
But the goal is to expand what the AI can do in each generation. At this point, Fable 5 can ace almost any greenfield project a skilled developer might have written in a few days. But it's bad at refactoring, bad at keeping the code clean as it goes, and bad at discovering new insights as it codes. So Anthropic will train Fable 6, using benchmarks like SlopCodeBench that test maintenance over time.
Now what about project management? Train Fable 7. What about product management and talking to stakeholders? Train Fable 8. What about market research and sales? Train Fable 9.
By this point, Anthropic doesn't need to actually release these newest models to the public. Why, that might be dangerous! Instead, they write, "deisgn [sic] a successful software product and sell it plz." And they spin up a million dollars worth of compute and let it crank out SaaSes, iPhone apps, etc., driving entire software companies out of business.
Then they spin up some more instances, and say, "make robot plz" and "try a thousand ways to make yrself smrater." I mean, Qwen and DeepSeek keep finding ways to pack more smarts into a given number of weights. Fable 9 will likely be able to do the same. Hell, Fable 5 can probably run 1,000 machine learning experiments now, just grinding through ideas the way ChatGPT's internal models grind through proofs.
And this is my problem. If it were just programmers losing their jobs, well, sometimes professions die. But what makes you think it will stop with us? How far will this go in the next 4 years? The next 20?
Of course (let me go distopic) we could end up with a dozen of one man companies powered by AIs and robots selling or bartering products and services to each other, what's enough to have food, a house with a pool, a doctor and everybody else has died long before.
Well, that's why they want the robots! If your robots are capable enough, and if your AIs are smart enough, why, they could just build the yachts directly!
Right now, ordinary humans are needed by the economy because we do all the work, and because robotics hardware is still far behind AI. But there's no inherent logical reason why you need a human to turn raw materials into luxury products. The really important questions are: Who controls the AI and robots? How good will they get? Who or what does all the work? And who controls the natural resources?
> Of course (let me go distopic)
Yup, that is a possible end state.
I don’t. Whether it’s written text, or video, audio, restaurant menus, clothing pictures, documentation, airport control, ads…
I do think there’s value in LLMs but as a sort of better search engines and q/a machines.
Nobody enjoys bad 1-shot AI.
I love good ai stuff even if it's obvious it's ai
I think a lot of product development happens in the itearations after the intial prototype/MVP and so on. It is not only the technical aspect to it, you need to spend time on a problem deeply understand what are the root causes of pains and address them in your product, both from UX and also from technical perspective.
People were able to "prompt" a product even before to an outsourcing company, but they'd rather pay the fee to a product company because of the expertese they have gained through out the years and all the users they've spoken to.
I'd like to go back to support, but madness has truly landed. Only so many ways to throw off forced collaboration to the Product Gods. Keep in mind I'm still not really using LLMs, why encourage bad behavior?
The only great new product I’ve used is my LLM of choice, and those labs seem to be hiring more humans than ever.
Maybe it’s true that Claude only just got good enough and that 12 months from now our day to day lives will be way better thanks to LLM-driven product improvements/breakthroughs.
My bet is that 12 months from now we will still have no great improvements and the claim will be “LLMs only got good enough in Feb 2027 so you can’t judge anything yet!”
The Internet is a better fax machine and all that.
Examples, please. It's easy to prove your point if it's true.
The earlier quote might be slightly overblown as some of those complaints, suggestions, and feedback can be iterated on more quickly thanks to AI. However, I think you will find that the overall premise is sound: The feedback loop is where you will spend the vast majority of your time and no coding agent can speed that up. Code was never the real bottleneck. A full-day coding session now being a 15 minute coding session helps, every so slightly, but when you still need to spend weeks talking to the users to figure out what needs to be done in that day/15 minutes, shaving off a handful of hours relative to weeks remains but a drop in the bucket. The marginal improvement is barely worth recognizing.
(please use your words to construct a full argument)
I have great results with AI assisted code bases and development
I am the harness
AI doesn't write articles, that's still your job.
I think these are defensive mechanisms, a kind of lullaby for the Gen AI era.
Why is this discourse endlessly reproduced? In my view, it's because the industry is still searching for a new methodology to control the waterfall of Gen AI code. The cognitive dissonance that results is being resolved by relying on vague personal virtues like 'craftsmanship,' 'fundamentals of computer science,' and 'human judgment.'
If the goal is to review Gen AI code in its entirety, the way an engineer would review a PR, then honestly, I don't see the point of using Gen AI in the first place.
Yes, models lack judgment and only do pattern matching. But lately, I've noticed that in closed systems, Gen AI often produces more logically coherent code than humans do. If that's the case, maybe programmers should shift toward designing closed systems where algebraic data types ensure the program works correctly.
Because using Gen AI means you're committing to codebases that go beyond individual cognitive limits. Once you start using Gen AI code, there's a subtle mismatch with human written code, a fundamental impedance mismatch, like the one between ORM and SQL.
In that sense, I honestly don't know.
The arguments that have been repeated for nearly a year all sound basically the same. But when I look closer, this isn't Gen AI era coding. It's just old era methodology with 'human' swapped out for 'AI.' If the subject changes, the methodology should change too.
Looking at the countless repetitive posts on HN, it shows what HN programmers are afraid of. They're afraid of the destruction of their overall meta-methodology.
All the arguments being made now are about how to become a good senior engineer in the old days.
But is that analogy really appropriate for the volume of code AI is generating?
The amount of code being generated is exploding. The amount of complexity is exploding. Responsibility is becoming unclear. These aren't issues of individual skill. Saying that drivers just need to be more careful when traffic increases is bad road policy. The core is that the roads and signaling systems need to change.
A new subject requires a new methodology.
In that sense, I think the recent post from Jane Street is more like a new solution. Of course, ADT doesn't guarantee that modeling always holds either.
So honestly, I don't know. When I look at HN, it seems like all I see is what social signals people are most anxious about.
I think this already happened. What's hard to swallow for us is the countless years spent studying, researching, and investing our time to be the best possible professionals in a very demanding, skill-intensive industry.
Now that software development is starting to be industrialized, I think it's fair to react with fear and uncertainty.
Yep, we are trying to find new strategies and methodologies to still stay relevant, but I think they'll become obsolete soon once the technology reaches a maturity point for full automation and the industrialization of the development process.
What it will look like, I don't know (I have a few guesses), but what I know is that I'll struggle a lot, in the middle of my forties, to reskill myself, especially considering a country of no opportunities like Italy.
> In that sense, I think the recent post from Jane Street is more like a new solution.
Can you please share it?
If it was otherwise outsourcing companies would've dominated the market for a long time, but it is with the exp from clients and many users that you get to build a great product.
It takes a lot of time to understand what is the pain of the user, in many cases we know what the problem is but we have not time to think of a good solution to it.
That's not the core issue, though. The market itself is demanding heavy AI use, and GitHub has already reported a massive increase in repository creation. In other words, if we acknowledge that there are clearly users who want this GEN AI code, then we should be having a discussion about how to actually push that code into production
The defensive mechanisms kick in because even though more code is generated than ever, we are not observing an equivalent rise in software quality or usefulness, some would perhaps argue it's even opposite.
If gen ai for code was really what it is being sold as it would all be obvious to everyone, we would be seeing better software all around us everywhere and posts such as the one here would just be laughed off, delusional, but they are not.
The code explosion did happen, the value of software this code makes - not yet. Not to say it won't, its just not here right now, and it never happening is still a possible outcome.
In my view, it's just that the existing infrastructure layer is so thick that it's not immediately visible—but AI adoption is already quite widespread across many companies.
People say program quality has declined, but I don't think so. The average quality of programs has improved significantly. You can see this by looking at open-source architecture books from 10 to 15 years ago.
That's why I think we need to first define what we actually mean by 'code quality' before discussing this issue.
Realistically, this discussion could easily drift into a debate about code quality. But if you look at older books on open-source architecture, there were many issues—runtime null references, confusing callback references, diamond dependencies, and so on.
These days, many of those problems are caught by linters and other tools. At the micro level, code quality has definitely risen compared to the past.
The real problem is that programs are getting larger. The minimum requirements for a program to be viable have gone up, while the available workforce hasn't kept pace. But in terms of quality, I think we can confidently say that overall code quality has improved compared to the past.
The issue is the gap between micro-level code hygiene and macro-level semantic coherence. And the key question is how we can maintain that macro-level semantic coherence while using AI-generated code. I think these are fundamentally different problems.
Just to disclose: I use those every day, I have two Claude Max 20 subscription myself. I am still in doubt how much more productive professionally it made me. I am having a ton of fun in exploring stuff I never would have otherwise though.
I define software quality in my daily life by this: how often I am delighted by the piece of software I use. Those moment are rare and far between, and it's not getting any better.
More code produced by a company that has history of low quality ... means more low quality.
A company that is unable to ship useful features will produced useless features whether they generate code or not.
Sure, the amount of code generated is exploding but where are these successful production applications that have "[gone] beyond individual cognitive limits"?
It's been some time now. Half a year ago I was concerned with the impact Gen AI might have on this profession. Today I am primarily tired of Gas Towns, Loops and the next fad.
Why do I have to still debug complex problems myself. Why do I have to still do detailed examinations.
Gen AI helps building big software. But the only thing it has truly replaced me in is building small software that in most cases I wouldn't have bothered building in the first place.
And I think GPT Codex and the products from AI companies are, at least for now, working reasonably well.
Of course, it depends on your baseline for quality.
But here's what I think is the core point:
Modern SaaS applications have become significantly more complex compared to older codebases. If you look at old books on open source architecture, the lines of code and overall size were much smaller. But today's commercial applications require a much higher level of complexity just to be marketable. In that kind of complexity, there are bound to be many bugs. But I think AI has significantly reduced that complexity burden
This is becoming more and more true every day.