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Discussion (183 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews
Yeah, that tracks.
> Camera data is owned by the police department and permanently deleted after 30 days.
I assume this means that the police department deletes one local copy?
There's so much going on in that sentence! What a thing of pure PR beauty.
What does "owned" mean in this sentence? Probably fairly little.
What data does it even refer to? Just the actual video footage? Does the statement include derived data like license plate reads or ML models?
And surely if data is flagged as relevant to an investigation it is not deleted, so is there an implicit "*unless retained"?
(1) https://www.malwarebytes.com/blog/privacy/2026/02/flock-came...
If questioned, I can already imagine someone defending that sort of agreement as a standard consumer, contractual terms and practices of the time.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/police-used-flocks-lice...
Applying group statistics to judge individual people is almost never proper, and lies at the root of an awful lot of inhumanity. I hope and imagine the women in question are capable of thinking (and judging) for themselves.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence_in_lesbian_r...
[1] https://www.cawc.org/news/socioeconomic-risk-factors-for-dom...
[2] https://bjs.ojp.gov/violent-victimization-race-or-hispanic-o...
[3] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10087409/#hsc14028-...
I don't see any difference between what you just said and "13-85".
Not making any moral judgements, if I used violence professionally I’d expect myself to be more violent in general.
https://digitalcommons.usf.edu/etd/1862/
https://academic.oup.com/policing/article-abstract/6/4/418/1...
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S13591...
Seems like that might be indicative of a problem?
https://measuredcollective.com/flocks-ai-surveillance-camera...
> For an unknown period, at least 60 AI-powered surveillance cameras manufactured by Flock Safety were accessible to anyone on the internet.
Past tense.
Trying to parse what that sentence means is useless. It isnt designed to mean anything. Their various mouth pieces have claimed every manner of excuse.
Semantic games are for everyone else to play and lose. Corporations always win.
What, you don’t like “sharing”? It would be selfish not to “share”!
Truly the move from “send a copy to” to “share” is one of the great linguistic dirty tricks the social-media-era firms have pulled on our civic discourse.
Especially here, where what’s being “shared” is, in a meaningful sense, operational control and enforcement prerogative.
And don’t get me started on the minimizing distraction “third-party companies and federal agencies”…
I think you’re being a little too generous here.
> Flock Safety cameras are automated license plate readers
Like Ring is a door chime.
Ben Jordan got ahold of one of them and proved that they even had footage from the f'n factory they were made in! Flock is lying to cities and/or cities are lying to us
License to use but responsible for loss
Nope, Flock bills out the ass for replacement cost right to the taxpayer. The grift continues!
Alternatively, "defunding the police" by way of smashing Flocks is another view point, from what I've heard.
https://www.ycombinator.com/library/N0-unpopular-ideas-that-...
None of that justifies the massive invasion of privacy that these cameras represent. You don't have a right to not be individually surveiled in public, but that doesn't mean it's OK for the government to warrantlessly track everyone everywhere they go 24x7. The potential for abuse is just too high, and we've seen many cases of that too.
edit: to be clear, I dont think Tan is capable of "enlightening" anyone. I was responding to the lazy comment above...
*Garry Tan has been characterized as a True Believer, in that he sincerely believes Flock's vision will reduce crime and not be misused. on the flip side they don't invest in Palantir, Anduril, Applied Intuition, etc. or other defense stuff. so it's very exceptional for them.
https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/industry/defense
And beyond this there are a number of defense-dependent companies like ProvenMetal (whose value proposition largely depends on a customer’s deep need to do onshore manyfacturing)
It makes sense. From 2000-2015 it was pretty difficult for anyone to really break into defense and really own a brand. Breakout companies like EOTech were really rare. Generally founders would be at the mercy/grace of the major defense incumbents, getting scraps from the table.
That’s changed lately. For a wide variety of reasons (domestic political, technical, and geopolitical) there’s a lot more room for startups to really own their own slice of the industry and build some moats of their own.
9 Mothers.
https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/9-mothers-corporation
https://www.christianitytoday.com/2025/08/michelle-stephens-... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trae_Stephens
It's hard for me to understand how any of this is very Christian.
Disappointing to see this is the future they are trying to invest in.
I can understand the benefit of being able to track coming and going and criminal activity etc but there is no oversight and it is already being abused.
Keeping this data within the municipality and requiring bureaucracy to coordinate with others might be the best solution I've heard, since it prevents dragnets and builds in auditing as part of the process.
See also this article about hiding usage of flock https://www.404media.co/do-not-mention-alpr-usage-how-cops-a...
When my community banned them, the police were only able to offer a single vehicle theft case as positive evidence, but the data was being sent to police stations and locally unpopular federal agencies clear across the country. We could have spent the municipal budget on giving the victims a new car with far fewer privacy concerns and still saved money.
If you live in a community that can't police, then sure, flock is your answer. Everyone is under surveillance now. Except you are innocent until proven guilty. Video evidence is becoming less and less credible due to AI. It's a slippery slope. I would rather police be trained to look for clues and do actual police work than wait for a "ping" on some automated system that they check from their computer desk.
https://deflock.org/foia
https://www.muckrock.com/search/?q=Winona+Flock
Only if they replace them...
Moreover, the quote was about budget - it only hits the budget if they replace them. Likewise, if someone steals your car, it only hits your budget if you replace it or otherwise incur other expenses (taxi, etc). If you shrug because you have 4 other cars, or just walk and bike most of the time, its not really hitting your budget.
The city is basically leasing the cameras, and responsible for their cost.
This is actually the distinction in many EU countries, i.e. it’s allowed to record a movie if the operator is present, but doing the same thing remotely requires permission from a special authority/agency (that’s not in cahoots with the police).
And the equivalence you're drawing is that the fundamental nature of someone recording a video with their phone is the same as a digital panopticon.
> Are you against people taking videos in public on their cell phones?
That's literally not what's happening, though. And any suggestion that it is comes from either ignorance or lies.
I'll let you in on a little secret: there are things you and I can do that the government cannot do, and the police are the government.
I'll forgive you for thinking that the police are just private citizens.
This because Texas has a hard on for trying to prosecute women who have abortions.
Pretty sure "search" includes "building a panopticon from which all citizens can be viewed at all times", but explain why you disagree.
All eight cameras were taken Aug. 1, according to the Winona Police Department. A patrol officer first noticed the cameras had not sent any alerts in 24 hours. When officers checked the locations, they found the cameras had been cut from their poles and taken. The poles were left behind.
Two additional Flock cameras on the Mississippi River Bridge, owned by Buffalo County, were also stolen in the same manner.
Each camera is valued at approximately $3,000, putting the total loss at roughly $24,000. That cost falls directly on the Winona Police Department’s budget.
The eight WPD cameras were positioned at key highway entry and exit points throughout the city: near Highway 61 and Bundy Boulevard, Highway 43 and Homer Road, Highway 14 and Knapp Valley Drive, and Highway 61 and Highway 14. Two cameras were stationed at each location.
Flock Safety cameras are automated license plate readers that capture images of plates along with a vehicle’s make, model and color. Police use the technology to investigate crimes such as hit-and-runs and to locate missing persons. Camera data is owned by the police department and permanently deleted after 30 days.
The thefts are part of a broader national trend. Flock cameras have been vandalized and cut down in communities across the country. The technology has drawn criticism from civil liberties advocates who argue the cameras expand government surveillance and raise concerns about data being shared with third-party companies or federal agencies.
No suspects have been identified. The investigation is ongoing. Anyone with information is asked to contact the Winona Police Department.
Disgusting copy. We all know that's not their primary function.
Who would include "Anyone with information is asked to contact the Winona Police Department." in a HN comment?
If you clicked the link and read the article, you'd quickly realize that they copy/pasted the article into a comment.
;-)
https://www.anarchistfederation.net/new-zine-birds-of-a-feat...
People don't want Big Brother. Politicians unironically trying to positively refer to them as an enhanced Big Brother is completely tone deaf.
And we know that police departments were working with ICE during Metro Surge:
> But the Star Tribune found law enforcement agencies around the country searched several Twin Cities suburbs’ camera data and labeled their queries as civil immigration enforcement — a mechanism used to detain those in the country illegally who have not committed other crimes. A vast majority of the searches were run on Fridley’s Flock Safety cameras as it had looser restrictions on its data than other agencies.
https://www.startribune.com/twin-cities-suburbs-license-plat...
This dozen even get into the dozens of documented instances of officers using the system to stalk people... couple that with Stingray devices. It's not hyperbole to say we're existing under the thumb of Big Brother.
Resistance to or acceptance of Flock/Axon is going to be a big tipping point in an already over-surveilled country.
Also: Don't sell the World Cup to Private Equity.
Of course, until the revenue knob needs a little tweak, and they start hashing the human data....
Does Winona Police Department actually own these cameras? Or is this heading technically deceptive.
Wow. Those must be some really nice cameras...
Sawzall, 1m 15s, circular saw 1m, circular saw like 20s.
https://youtube.com/shorts/aAc3Kq0bFPs
Yet to see anyone describe what to do once they are down. They for sure have all manners of wicked battery backed up trackers etc, I'm sure.
(This would be highly illegal to do and you should not do it, even to evil surveillance cameras that hoover up our lives to terrifying central databases, even if these are ragingly unpopular.)
Manual pole cutters have existed for at least 100 years. No batteries. Almost zero noise.
You put one on the pole, walk around the pole once, and it's cut. They were used a lot in the 1970's when people were rebelling against parking meters.
I believe it's part of the opening scene of the film Cool Hand Luke.
I discovered that with my Sony Ericsson k700i with a laser pointer when trying to take a picture of the laser.
I thought flocked owned the hardware?
this is not how you affect political change no matter how noble
over $1000 in damage so felony
and if they went from location to location with a smartphone pinging, all cops have to do is find out what phone was at all those locations
In many 3rd World places you must conceal/hide surveillance cameras because they are a valuable asset worth stealing.
not really. the word has evolved enough that dictionaries and wikipedia acknowledge the common-day usage of "underdeveloped"
Maybe if police weren't using Flock cameras to stalk their ex-wives [1][2].
There's an interesting angle to the Flock issue I heard recently. Some predominantly black communities prefer Flock cameras because they're over-policed, black men in particular are more likely to be pulled over on "routine" traffic stops and those stops have a skewed chance of ending in violence of death. As a reminder, US law enforcement kills over 1000 civilians every single year. Over half of those are black men and black men are only ~6% of the population.
But that's really a lesser evil type situation because the police simply shouldn't be killing so many people.
[1]: https://www.firstalert4.com/2026/08/03/brentwood-officer-acc...
[2]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2026/08/02/how-pol...
This is at least as likely to be theft as much as civic action. There are far easier ways one might permanently inhibit these cameras than cutting them down and taking them away.
Like what? Setting them on fire or shooting them might be easier, but it's more dangerous.
Wow so they did all 8 in in 24 hours. That's quite impressive