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Discussion (77 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews
Love this. There’s been past discussion on HN re how OSS maintainers are treated, and this is such a wry sentence. I really appreciate the tone / attitude to the problem.
I've just finished creating a WASM 1.0 implementation (simple JIT on x86 and x86_64) for plugin usage and I'm looking on how to support more languages beyond C (for which I have "micro-libc" to create really small binaries). In particular C++ and Rust so the article contains useful info for that. C++ that would be more problematic I think, would have to resort to full Emscripten or something... I've tried to compile standalone C++ stdlib but wasn't much sucessful yet.
BTW, I see in the screenshots you also test Firefox, I think it would make sense to test the latest two ESR versions (these are often used by Linux distributions).
Personally I don’t understand where this confusion comes from - it’s a simple economic tactic. Yes the large scale scrapers won’t run out of compute but putting anubis in front of a website demonstrably reduces the amount of crawling and that is the entire goal.
After 1 solve, you get a cookie and can load tons of pages with it. Scrapers and user agents alike will need to spend the compute only once to get a valid session for themselves
Seems to be working so far though. Fwiw, lots of silly things stop bots until someone puts their mind (or tokens) to bypassing it, and then the blocking mechanism has to adapt. We'll see how it plays out, for now it's a lot better than begging big brother (cloudflare, google, or amazon captcha) for access, so I'm quite appreciative of what Techaro is doing
last difficulty 5 nonce 645376 in 9 ms (101.6MH/s, avx512-x16)
This takes many minutes to solve on a cellphone, 9 milliseconds on a cheap VPS. It’s not stopping anyone.
You could just spend 30 seconds googling instead of confidently asserting nonsense. There are plenty of people demonstrating that Anubis reduces bot traffic.
Which doesn't hold. A 1s delay, despite being inperceptible is still a cost to human users. After all, 3600 x 1s delay adds up to an hour. Worse yet, the typical human visitor will always have to solve a challenge, because chances are it's the first time they're visiting your blog or whatever. Someone scraping reuse a valid session for at least a few more pages.
There's also the problem of time. It might be tempting to think the cost of a challenge is 1M cpu cycles or whatever, but the cost is better modeled as two parts, a time cost (for the human) and a cpu cost (for the computer). A scraper might have to pay the cpu cost, but not the time cost, because they can have their scraper solve challenges in their sleep. Unless the user is utterly destitute, their time is worth far more than whatever the compute cost is.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49491791 ("Creepy Crawlies (kernel.org)")
https://people.kernel.org/monsieuricon/creepy-crawlies
I was particularly struck by the ASIC estimates 'semiquaver shared.
If against all odds it turns out that skiddies (or agents or AI billionaires or what have you) are willing to burn inordinate amounts of RAM and CPU just to scrape autogenerated cgit pages that are of approximately zero value to them to begin with then I guess we'll just have to cross that bridge when we come to it.
And then regular users: who now can't really browse your site.
And then smart bots - anyone with even a moderate amount of funding in the AI space, who aren't even slightly slowed down.
The solution basically makes the favored customer well funded AI scrapers, not users.
I have a Mac from 2014 running Yosemite that I occasionally use to test for backwards compatibility in my own frontend code (for fun!). But IMO the best way to ensure compatibility is to use period-correct toolchains or toolchains where the pace of change is slower, like ClojureScript.
I feel like Anubis is ironically speedrunning a lot of discoveries the crypto folks have already made several years ago...
We could link it to a site, you generate for HN, I for Reddit, but it so happens that you visited Reddit more and I HN, so we depleted our Anubis POW, so we could exchange some Reddit Anubis with some HN Anubis.
The git host example is probably the one which Anubis is the dumbest defense for: the main reason to have those links is for easy machine interaction. So that's dead when you implement it.
So why even host the links? It's a git repo: send them a local got client and let them clone the repo in browser or something.
I don't understand the units here, wouldn't a bit versus nibble difference make the multiplier 16, instead of 1024?
On https://wasm-feature-detect.surma.technology it shows that I don't have 3 of all these features but I'm not sure if Anubis needs any of them to not kick me back to the pure JS solution
Which would apparently be bad because
> The WebAssembly that's shipped with this flow is ridiculously performant. This may mean you need to adjust the difficulty [upward, to avoid that bots solve it trivially when they support wasm, I assume this means]
combined with
> The wasm2js flow doesn't currently have a way to update the progress bar [so you have no clue about remaining time]
(wouldn't be the first time that I gave up on a page because it was stuck on 0 hashes per second)
- https://techaro.lol/robots.txt
- https://anubis.techaro.lol/robots.txt
and the latter (at least) is Anubis protected. It could be just an omission. But if it's intentional, I am just curious why so that as a bot author I can be well-behaved.
…<img not found/>…
I don’t know what this picture was supposed to be, but a 404 demonstrates your point perfectly well.
https://github.com/eternal-flame-AD/pow-buster - Browser extension that already used WASM to accelerate the anubis solver, among others.
https://github.com/kasper93/anubis_webgpu - Browser extension that uses webgpu, for another order-of-magnitude speedup (depending on your GPU of course).
That would defeat the purpose. The goal is to make scraping costly, not profitable.
But, in this world, the website owner would receive tokens that they can then use to do whatever they want, including paying for servers and bandwidth. This is the sense in which the cycles aren’t wasted: the website owner now has cash to spend.
Effectively, both scrapers and ordinary users would be paying for the privilege of getting website bytes.
This also solves the problem of having to wait for your phone to solve the challenge while you’re browsing: you can buy or mine some tokens ahead of time and pay them as soon as challenged. So can the scrapers, but because they’re accessing enormous numbers of pages it’s hopefully prohibitively expensive for them.
> This makes Anubis challenges use a memory-hard proof of work function (argon2id) instead of just a CPU hard one. It also means that the "hey Claude vibeslop me a CUDA Anubis solver" route is on its way to being fundamentally dead.
Nice.
Lmao yeah no. I don't think a little argon2 is going to change shit all.
I mean the thesis of Anubis itself is "scrappers are compute limited (in ways that consumer devices are not)" which has its own massive flaws.