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Notably Will Merrill's work: https://arxiv.org/abs/2310.07923
As for how universal transformers (looping transformers, but everyone has since forgotten prior work) will affect this, Will Merrill (again) has a paper here (https://arxiv.org/abs/2503.03961) that discusses exactly this.
The original universal transformers is called "universal" because if you allow for per-token looping decisions, it can theoretically be Turing complete without needing CoT (some nuance here about levels of precision used).
As for whether having little or no CoT is "unsafe": It isn't clear that the model's CoT reveal how they actually arrive at the answer. As an example, what if they provide an answer before the CoT? (https://arxiv.org/html/2603.01437v2) If this is already in question, we shouldn't be relying on the CoT for monitoring the model's reasoning.
As always there is a lot of nuance to the topic once you get your hands dirty with the details.
I guess it's not too different from the SVG pelicans, in terms of what it's doing, but it's still amazing to see it working in real-time like that.
> We've made some improvements that improve usage on the long tail for power users of Astra when logged in with your ChatGPT account.
> No change in quality and a pure win that on the long tail can result in up to 3-4X less usage being drawn from the subscription.
https://x.com/thsottiaux/status/2096717905614524491 (https://xcancel.com/thsottiaux/status/2096717905614524491)
You can't fool everybody all of the time, but you can fool almost everybody most of the time.
But most of all, it's easy to fool yourself.
I’m working on hard things, it is very noticeable when it is hums through something and then falls over on something it should not
I can tell by analyzing my own prompts to look at when I get frustrated ;)
If the output of the model is its reasoning trace, and you simply feed that back into the model again at inference time instead of outputting it - then it is by definition hidden (but I would expect you could pull both this trace and a further-down final output trace out)
Looping transformers uses additional calculations (repeating layers) to generate a token.
Reasoning (in this context) is test time generation of multiple tokens that allow a model to have a scratch pad to refine its thoughts, chain of thought reasoning in other words.
Doing the former in no way means that you have to hide the latter.
Raschka is right in this post, The Information article was wrong. The Astra system card does concede reasoning traces are sometimes smaller, but this could be for a lot of reasons, including simple efficiency. And it absolutely doesn’t mean they are going away or completely obscured.
The Last Week in AI podcast from Sept 8 seems to have gotten this wrong as well. Jeremie Harris rages that OpenAI implemented latent reasoning, ala the coconut paper, which could potentially actually obscure reasoning traces. But for the life of me, I do not know how he arrived at this conclusion and see no evidence that this has happened in Astra.
There isn't really anything fundamentally different compared to a similar depth traditional "unrolled" model. It helps with parameter efficiency.
That doesn't mean that the model can't have "hidden" internal state, it just means it has to recompute the "hidden" part on every token inference pass without outputting it, or learn a subversive alternate meaning to words in the thought space.
This is why you see openai say that they don't want to apply direct optimization pressure on thought traces because the more the you penalize "bad thoughts" the more it could put maladaptive pressure on the reasoning tokens where they may learn "subversive meanings". It effectively damages monitoring.
Like thinking "look at" when you really mean "hack into" or even more radical coded language.
The tldr here is that the recent "The Information" article[0] reporting GPT 6 Astra was using “recurrent depth” or “looped transformers" made it sound like it was some special new scary thing ("secret technique!") that made train-of-thought monitoring harder to do. In fact, it's just the same as stacking more transformer layers, except that you reuse the weights and so save GPU memory. It's still just producing one token at a time, and the token sequence positions aren't interacting in any "recurrent" way that's different from a regular LLM architecture.
So, you can still monitor train of thought with these models just fine... well, if you're OpenAI, anyway. Users haven't been able to see an unsummarized trace since o1 days, because the labs are worried about distillation of their models by Chinese labs.
(There are some legitimate interpretability concerns about stacking transformer layers endlessly, but we're known about that for a long time. And the "looping" here isn't really the source of any new issues here, except insofar as it's a cheap way to add more layers.)
[0] https://www.theinformation.com/articles/secret-technique-beh...
To analogize, current transformers run a fixed-length program per step. Any program can be factored into a top-level loop with a fixed-length branching body (an interpreter). Dynamically looped transformers can run any program between tokens.
The safety argument for CoT monitoring is that in transformers information about the hidden state has to be communicated through the bottleneck of sampling a single token per forward pass. If not trained adversarially, it’s likely that a reasoning trace contains all the “bottlenecked information” we need to determine intent. But if we can compute arbitrary programs between tokens, the reasoning used is hidden.
It also opens the door to simple architectural extensions that would make the safety/monitoring side of things much more difficult.
It’s probably fine in practice at these scales though. If we keep each loop turn reasonable non-deep, we can probably recover most of the benefits by decoding “extended” CoTs from the residual stream at each loop turn between tokens. But that’s an area of active development.
The ability to compute any computable function between tokens given an ability to loop an arbitrary number of times is a nice theoretical point, sure, but ultimately if people are still using single digit hard cutoffs on the number of loops, I'm not sure it's all that important.
So, I agree it's right to say that arbitrary length dynamic looping could open the door to making monitoring very hard indeed, by extending hidden states further and further. But I would speculate that if it actually worked better than extending the sequence with CoT tokens, we'd already be seeing it in strong open weight models. It's a fairly obvious thing to try. And we're not seeing it, AFAIK. So I do wonder whether it's something we really need to worry about in practice, compared to all the other things we have to worry about.
Wrote about it here: https://substack.com/home/post/p-214402969
In your generalized example I think the concern is when the additional evaluation effectively becomes a replacement for CoT, where something like the coconut research could replace it completely.
However, I don’t think we’re anywhere close to that with Astra.
(For all intents and purposes given how high dimensional you are and using the "vibes" of computability yes I agree w/ you)
It's not a "scary new thing" but ultimately no-one knows exactly how OpenAI have implemented looping. You might not be aware/remember but MoE transformers perennially underperfomed their dense counterparts until GPT-4. Similarly, making reinforcement learning really work with transformers wasn't figured out until o1.
And by Open AI's own admission, Astra's CoT is significantly harder to monitor and it exhibits a significantly greater control over its own CoT than any other model released.
> And by Open AI's own admission, Astra's CoT is significantly harder to monitor and it exhibits a significantly greater control over its own CoT than any other model released.
Oh sure; I don't think anyone is denying that larger issue? But does it have anything to do with looping?
I guess we did manage to eventually seriously crash into the wall "more compute than normal (non-looped/unique-weights) transformers can efficiently consume with the limited training data we have", plus massive focus on highly hands-off agentic tool use reasoning...
https://arxiv.org/abs/2310.07096
Edit: read much of the article, it's brute force predecessor was explicitly called out as an almost-ancient example:
> The looped transformer is nothing new, and the basic idea already appeared in the Universal Transformers paper from 2018
This may be a bit of a nitpick, but... does it? I agree that giving the model decisions on looping certainly makes interpretability harder, because it adds more transient internal states to deal with and changes the number of them depending on prior states. But is it really pulling CoT inside the forward pass, if the sequence length it's operating on isn't growing? In some sense the whole technique and tradeoff of CoT is "add more tokens to the sequence, use them to reason with", with one of the benefits being, you force the model to output tokens, so you can (hopefully) understand it. And the big point TFA is making is, nobody is doing recurrence over sequence length as far as we know.
I don't think this is explained by the model simply being more capable and therefore achieving more per token: the usage of recurrent depth (Neuralese) is exactly predicting less CoT monitorability even at equal capability.
Better Multi hop reasoning is one of the most notable improvements of the architecture. The tricky part is figuring out a way to optimize the number of times you loop as it varies between tasks. Too few and you leave performance on the table too many and performance begins to drop.
previously, conversation might have 50k tokens spent on reasoning. the next turn takes all the previous tokens as well (if you wanna preserve prompt caching) which is not ideal. this new method skips that so you get more free context until compaction kicks in.
is this true? if so its a huge deal. why is it not spoken about? its one of the main reasons i don't use High or Max
Also, Astra overlooked, in my opinion, a serious flaw in its approach for something I was working on recently, which really surprised me.
Reading between the lines, there were some breakthroughs with Astra, which I'm sure is why OpenAI released it so quickly after Sol, but probably not in the ways the traditional OpenAI customer wanted.
I gave Astra a pretty straightforward bug ticket yesterday. The bug involved an edge case that could sometimes result in an invalid value getting stored in a user profile field. Pretty harmless, no crash or anything, just annoying.
Based on past experience, I don't trust OpenAI, so I decided to watch Astra as it worked. About four minutes in, it convinced itself that it should also check the prod database to see "how far the corruption has spread" and attempted to SSH into the hosting provider. This resulted in my 1Password to prompt me, which I of course denied. Then I stopped Astra, closed the ChatGPT/Codex app and gave the task to Opus 5. Suffice it to say I will not be renewing my subscription, because "you have to watch it like a hawk" is the opposite of agentic engineering.
Negative feedback filed and ChatGPT uninstalled.
The way I use it now is I'll ask a chat 6 Pro session to make a plan and then have Sol implement it, then 6 Pro reviews it. This seems fine and it doesn't use my Codex minutes, so I'll use Astra. But on the metered tasks I don't see the utility.
This is a problem for OpenAI because if Sol is good enough, and they don't have a moat, then it's only a matter of time before Sol-level models are open sourced and running locally. I know I'll be doing that as soon as I can.
Much the same as you're saying, I never got around to verifying how much of that was because of Astra being better vs just being a different model sent specifically to those tasks because the token usage didn't make sense to spend unless it was something not working in Sol. So even if it was all due to Astra being fantastic I'd still not like to use the model for the cost being even more fantastic.
double TLDR: This is a Turbo V4 instead of a huge V8 of a model.
Think how a reverse polish notation calculator with reasonably limited data stack depth could run efficiently with a plain vanilla transformer.
But if you input classic grade school parenthesized infix with a few levels of operator precedence, you are no longer able to just evaluate the expression during transformer prefill. Even if you add a stack depth bound worth it reasoning tokens between any two input tokens as they're processed.
UTs can, at least if run with encoder (unmasked) attention, resolve the task through technically-flexible iteration count that can and will follow the evaluation order of the infix operator tokens of the input expression.
While masked attention unfortunately limits it's powers, the fundamental benefit of separating task-specific-intelligence (an individual expert of an MoE) from the notion of which transformer layer has it pre-digested just right for that task/processing to be done to it, allows for massive reduction in model parameter count. Note this comes at a penalty of parameter activations (inference will take more compute).
It's just that at some point you can't afford to just train more parameters, without suffering overfitting issues/failures-to-generalize.
The architecture decoupling learned weights from when they're activated also helps with generalization to out-of-distribution structures. Think resilience against yoda-speak and such.