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#music#notation#theory#century#piano#same#https#makes#written#playing

Discussion (39 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

ultrasounderabout 3 hours ago
https://musictheory.pugetsound.edu/ link takes you to the homeworks/assignments and everything else for a self-study/auto-didact to follow along. Neat!
tantalorabout 1 hour ago
Very cool but what does this have to do with "21st-Century Classroom"? Is that just a meaningless phrase to make it sound modern, not old-fashioned?
colonwqbang5 minutes ago
If you subtract the "meaningless phrase", the title of the book is just "Music Theory". Do this for every book written about music, art, mathematics and you'll just have a lot of books with identical and quite dull titles.
bwanababout 1 hour ago
Could just be because it is the 21st century and this was written for classroom use.
gowldabout 1 hour ago
It's a new presentation, an online hypertext, and uses YouTube publications of 21st Century music as example.

https://musictheory.pugetsound.edu/mt21c/frontmatter-5.html

larodi34 minutes ago
Music theory for the 21st century with notation from several centuries earlier. Hmm.... sorry but tracker's table-like views are much easier. And so are most DAWs gantt-like editors. 100 times easier to comprehend than notation having the same not written in three different ways, and then some.
dfltr6 minutes ago
The English language is messy as hell, and yet, here we are using it because it's a shared set of rules and symbols that pretty much everyone who wants to join in on this conversation already knows.

Same with staff notation: If you want to communicate music to other people, learning the slightly clunky but universally-known written language is generally the way to go.

odyssey76 minutes ago
I’m sympathetic to this viewpoint, but most music students in the classroom will be playing instruments or singing rather than working in DAWs.

The instruments, music, and notation all evolved together in a shared tradition that make them well-suited for one another.

cbondurantabout 1 hour ago
I was hoping to see if by "21st-Century" it meant "music theory that is applicable to the way modern music is generally written and interacted with". With details on things like microtonal music, increased focus on rhythmic theory, an increased appreciation for the role that timbre plays in the sound of music, the theoretical frameworks that underpin long standing musical traditions of other cultures and contrasting what makes each musical theory unique as a way of better understanding both western theories of music as well as the breadth of musical expression....

Nope! Just the same old, well beaten, rotting corpse of a horse in the form of a musical theory that entirely exists to prop up schenkerian analysis. The one that that racist, elitist music programs have been teaching since well before the 21st-Century. (The way you can tell is because it includes figured bass, which is totally irrelevant to any discussion that isn't about the harmonic style of 18th century european musicians.)

God forbid I want to, oh I don't know, make music that's similar to the kind that I actually listen to on a regular basis? Better understand its underpinnings and what makes it work in the ways that it does? No. Figured bass.

xcf_seetanabout 1 hour ago
Happy to see serialism covered! thanks
chrisjj29 minutes ago
> On the piano there are 88 notes.

88 keys (usually) and unlimited notes.

waffletowerabout 1 hour ago
How can this be fairly labelled "for the 21st-Century Classroom" when even 20th-century techniques aren't adequately represented? Electronic and computer music techniques are conspicuously absent. Microtonality has a rich history as well which is not even footnoted here.
aanetabout 4 hours ago
Book: Music Theory for the 21st-Century Classroom

by Robert Hutchinson

IvanK_netabout 2 hours ago
Am I the only one who thinks that the classic music notation is 3x harder to learn than the basic music theory (without the rules of notation)?

I think that you can learn music theory (to play an instrument or to compose music e.g. in a "piano roll tool" / MIDI editor) much faster if you skip the classic notation. And I think that it is even better to learn the notation AFTER you understand the music theory.

I even made my own guide to music :D https://www.jampea.com/learn

Hunpeterabout 2 hours ago
This is a bit off topic, but since you mentioned your guide: I hope this doesn't come off as hostile, but the guide you linked contains a number of inaccuracies and oversimplifications - it's kind of naive in an endearing way, but also leaves the reader with the impression that it covers all there is to music. I guess what I'm saying is it's fine to restrict yourself in what you include in the guide, or even simplify things, but it should be clear that the topic (i.e. music) is far richer and more complex.
tracnarabout 2 hours ago
To give an example, this it of course not true:

> Only a limited set of frequencies is used in music. All these frequencies (that exist in music) can be played by a piano.

PaulDavisThe1stabout 1 hour ago
You're saying its not possible to tune a piano to an arbitrary set of 88 pitches?
kianabout 1 hour ago
It's all about the integers modulo 12. Classical notation obscures that (while making it easier to figure out which of the integers modulo 12 you're using, minus being able to assign them to integers in an obvious way).
BigTTYGothGF35 minutes ago
> It's all about the integers modulo 12.

Only in 12TET.

kian4 minutes ago
24, 128, approach infinity -- I know there are microtonal systems, but if you want to understand them, choose the nearest multiple-of-twelve (or really, choose whatever TET contains the closest approximations to the exact notes) TET and look where their intervals land with respect to the symmetries (factors) within that TET, and where those symmetries are broken by a note moving by a perceptual 'slide' (one note 'moves' into the other position) rather than sounding like a new distinct voice.
bonziniabout 2 hours ago
https://youtu.be/Eq3bUFgEcb4 explains why music notation is the way it is. There are very good reasons for it.

The parts that are really weird (like the C clef) have mostly been obsoleted, unless you play the viola I guess.

jerfabout 1 hour ago
It kind of reminds me of the periodic declaration someone makes on HN that textual programming sucks and we all need to switch to something else, usually visual programming in this case.

If someone takes time to deeply understand the advantages of the textual approach and then builds an alternative, I'll listen.

But at this point, anyone who is doing this and their criticism of the original approach is shallow and uninsightful, where it's basically just "it's old and it must therefore suck", is unlikely to produce a good answer.

I think that applies to the music notation case too. "Conventional" music notation isn't just a staff and a couple of types of notes. By the time you handle all the use cases that conventional notation handles, or even just a solid subset of it, your brand new notation is probably a lot less elegant than it started out as in someone's head.

jaggirs16 minutes ago
Have a look at https://terpstrakeyboard.com/about/ and the janko keyboard

I know neither is about music notation per se (but about fixing the piano), but it is analogous: Music notation has exactly the same problem as the piano -> it defaults to C, which makes everything else relative to C and overly complicated.

For the record, I don't think this means we should switch to a new system, but it is usefull to recognize that it is suboptimal, if only to be able to accept it and continue (because nobody is going to translate everything to some new notation)

TheOtherHobbes41 minutes ago
Exactly. Music theory is a programming language for musical composition and performance.

Unlike most languages it's inherently two dimensional because music includes both horizontal (time, rhythm) and vertical pitches (chords/colours, harmony) information.

And - especially important - melody is an element that needs both.

You can't represent the same information with text without losing a lot of important content, which is why toys like Sonic Pi are more limited than they seem.

You can kinda sorta represent the same information on a piano roll, but it's not any easier to read than dots - in some ways harder, because you're not going to see the relationship between a bass line and chords as clearly.

Is it a good programming language? It's quite dense, but not denser than some code idioms. The 2D element is unique, and hard to represent in other ways.

The learning curve is steep, but it's probably as good as it can be given the requirements and constraints.

song_synthabout 2 hours ago
love that video, it made me lol so hard the first time I saw it :D

Classical composer and software engineer here. One of my goals is to help update score notation. I use something called "harmonic coloring" which is like a reduced MIDI notation: You color a note by its functional role (harmonic value) rather than an arbitrary hue in 0-11.

What this view shares with MIDI: Long rectangles representing the applied durations. How it is different: Occupies a minimal amount vertical space.

The color palette I'm using is intended to support people with colorblindness. The shades/hues of a color encodes the functional harmony. The root key signature (origin) is always the same color; and chords some distance r away on the circle of fifths is the shade/hue at that offset r.

There is a similar concept described in the Tantacruel video towards the end.

You can explore it here on Monic Theory. (mobile view should be fixed within 48 hours)

https://monictheory.com/project-templates

PaulDavisThe1stabout 1 hour ago
Note that in historical Byzantine musical culture, there are no absolute pitches at all. Their notational form is entirely intervals from some arbitrary root note.

Similarly, in Carnatic and Hindustani classical traditions, the note names (Sa, Re, Pa etc) do not denote pitches - Sa is always the root, whatever it is, and the rest have a somewhat well defined intervallic relationship to it.

I personally would not use "harmonic value" to describe this, since it occurs in music that (broadly speaking) lacks harmony. The key point, IMO, is that what matters are sets of intervals (ratios, if you prefer) rather than actual pitches (as frequencies).

jaggirsabout 2 hours ago
I suppose it makes historical sense, and even ingeniously designed.

But it, and the piano black keys with it, are definitely not optimal. It makes playing in C easy, and playing in anything else hard. I've picked up a new instrument since ~2 months, and 1 month in I could already play all scales by by deliberately staying away from music notation, learning the raw distances/steps that make up a scale and how to play them, rather than the 'delta from C', which is how classical training taught me to think. (Same story for chords etc)

BalinKing18 minutes ago
> But it, and the piano black keys with it, are definitely not optimal. It makes playing in C easy, and playing in anything else hard.

I don't think this is true—I was under the impression that, at least on piano, keys other than C major are sometimes chosen specifically to make things easier on the fingers.

PaulDavisThe1stabout 1 hour ago
I have some great news: you're a nerd ! :))

... or is it geek, i can never remember the difference ...

Eduardabout 2 hours ago
didn't find a single audio file; only links to unaffiliated YouTube videos which want me to watch ads first.

“Writing about music is like dancing about architecture.”

mcbuilderabout 2 hours ago
I feel that quote more likely is pointed at "music appreciation" as a written work, versus understanding the theory. I know a few musicians who are happy to use terminology from theory, "I love to write songs with diminished and sustained chords".

This seems like a great resource to me, a classically trained pianist who is now playing different types of music.

aanetabout 1 hour ago
There are several music samples in there...

Example: https://musictheory.pugetsound.edu/mt21c/DiatonicChordsInMaj...

rc5150about 2 hours ago
skill issue.