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Discussion (183 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews
who is going to pay back the money nVidia invests in AI labs, AI datacenter companies if the models are being served dirt cheap.
the Chinese are not the only competitor - Amazon with their Trainium, Google with their TPUs etc.
Nvidia might have a moat on training but on serving it's gonna be a blood bath.
But for now they're capturing 80% of all the AI spend so they gonna keep making money.
The fallacy I see repeatedly is someone spots a legitimate issue that could hurt Nvidia and by the time they have stood up the challenge to pull that off, Nvidia has pivoted and addressed it. Or more recently, they just acquired it like Groq.
For your premise to hold, you're asserting Nvidia is blind to inference. And yet his public positioning suggests otherwise.
https://qz.com/nvidia-gtc-2026-jensen-huang-keynote-takeaway...
What makes you think they've hit some sort of metaphorical iceberg and all they'll do before they sink is rearrange deck chairs?
the bet is against the high margins in inference - when other capable players have entered the market as models become commoditized and the inference serving chips as well. Cerebrus ai etc are already showing custom silicon can make a dent while being served cheaper & faster.
That is, revenues may be unusually cyclically high.
It's going to be hard for frontier labs to keep spending at this rate without starting to make money. And even if they do, lower cost alternatives will likely impact at least to -some- extent how much of that revenue nv gets.
And this is why the stock remains high. This hasn't even started to make a dent in Nvidia's bottom line yet.
These comparisons to Enron are absurd when Nvidia is generating this much cash flow.
Let's see the other alternatives come online and start taking away sales.
What is this?
Demand functions (price as a function of quantity demanded) take all kinds of shapes. Veblen goods are the silly example of wrong-sloped demand [1]. The in-vogue example of sigmoid demand, however, is hot water–make hot water (or lighting, for that matter, as another comment today pointed out for LEDs) cheaper and there is a limit to the things we want hot water for. Halving the cost of hot water doesn't induce much new hot-water demand, it increases demand for other goods and services.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good
Not everything is an Enron
Kind of reminds me of the current lack of supply of GPUs and ram to consumers.
You could make an argument that maybe this is similar to oracle (I think?) in the com bubble financing networking gear to customers.
I still think that misses the mark since the customers using hardware are have demand for computer by their customers.
In particular, the "circular financing" agreements look very structurally similar to things like the Merrill Lynch barges. They're not exactly the same, but Nvidia's statements in the source article make me more rather than less concerned; does it just so happen to be the case that their investment targets all want to spend lots of money on Nvidia products, or does an Nvidia investment come with implicit and unaccounted guarantees that the target will spend lots of money on Nvidia products?
Nvidia's financing is disclosed. Enron lied about its schemes.
I've also seen zero evidence that Nvidia is extending this credit to related parties to put in sham orders–that was part of Enron's shtick, too.
There is nothing illicit or illegal in anyway about what NVidia is doing. It's reasonable business practice, and people on HN are simply ignorant to think otherwise.
NVidia is very aware of the risks it entails, but has the money to cover those risks.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vendor_finance
[2] https://archive.is/mOIfg
Eh, I think it's an open question whether OpenAI and Anthropic would be buying GPUs like they are with or without Nvidia's financing. Financing customers' purchases isn't proof per se of demand creation versus demand inducement. Anyone who claims they've seen a certain fact in these financings is deluded or lying.
If you haven’t read “Smartest guys in the room” it’s important reading now as it’s scary similar to what’s going on now across AI. Nobody has alleged anything illegal but the net effect on building a house of cards in the AI bubble can be the same.
And that gap in where people are watching (AI company press releases or the creative accounting going on) explains why those watching this are saying “oh no, we’ve seen this movie before” when others are blinding all rah rah about the AI bubble going on forever.
Which is a fundamental difference. When Apple extends me credit to buy an iPhone, that isn't circular financing in a problematic way. I was buying the phone anyway, the financing just made it easier.
Have you bothered to look at the finances of Nvidia's AI clients?
None of them are making any money. They're borrowing money they don't have in oder to buy from Nvidia. And now some of this money is coming from Nvidia itself.
In a round about way, Nvidia is buying it's own product.
It's pretty clear that this sort of thing can't continue indefinitely --- just like any Ponzi scheme.
Who are you thinking of? Because yes, I have, and they're not in line with the YouTube influencer consensus.
The amount of money Nvidia has put into the ecosystem is much, much less than money coming into the ecosystem from actual customers who are willing to pay for the products!
The idea that somehow Nvidia is financing the entire AI industry is laughable. The numbers do not add up at all if you look at the numbers of people paying for Google cloud GPU compute, AWS GPUs, Azure GPUs, Nebius, Coreweave, etc, not even including companies like Fireworks, BaseTen, Together AI, etc .
The reality is this, enterprise companies are spending HUGE amounts of their money on AI products because they are gaining value from them. This money (which doesn't originate from Nvidia) is flowing into the ecosystem. The money being spent by enterprises combined is far, far more than Nvidia puts in.
NVDA hasn't sold any stock to the public since 1999. If they want to trade shovels for ownership stake in the mines - good for them.
They have issued billions corporate bonds, but buyers like Goldman Sachs and J.P. Morgan have armies of analysis and lawyers.
If this isn't a house of cards, AI companies' customers. The companies and individauls ponying up for a Claude subscription or compute through OpenRouter.
Customer financing isn't inherently fucked. It's just highly suspect at the scale Nvidia's doing it. There was another thread where I noted that Nvidia's investments are literally monetarily significant, to the point that I expect them to start being directly referenced in the Fed's beige book [1].
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49673871
As I understand it they are risking that even if the major AI labs fail all the compute capacity that's been built out will remain in demand at sufficiently high prices.
Companies who pay 99$ to make >99$ in return. I am not saying it works in all cases but that's the idea when a company spends money.
> Because it seems like so far everybody is losing money with no reversal of this trend in sight
I am not sure what you are seeing: Anthropic (as one of only two major companies that do just AI) is starting to return profits, while demand for AI is accelerating and, clearly, compute is maxed out. And I mean: On the entire planet. They are turning profits despite everything being in full buildout mode.
You, when their circular financing scheme fails and you're the one left holding the bag as your government says "they're too important to let them fail".
So for example if you invest $100 in a farm and get a return of 10%, where does that come from? The nutrients in the soil, the effort expended by the workers, and the power of the sun to turn seeds into food. All value comes either from finite resources in the ground (nuclear, oil, ...), from solar power, or from human effort (work, innovations, etc.)
So can you trace back Nvidia's incredible 10000% return on investment to any of these sources? Which ones?
Value also comes from technology which you seem to suspiciously remove
And I'd argue the timer started in 2023.
Trust me, there are many other people like me in the world and the enterprises are spending even more.
There is more money flowing into the overall AI ecosystem (by far) than the money Nvidia puts in.
The idea that Nvidia is artificially creating the whole demand is laughable and doesn't add up.
We're already seeing signs of this strategy from Open AI and Anthropic warning about the dangers of AI and the need for safety regulations. None of that stuff matters if China is not also on board with it.
You could say that about any historically inflated valuation all the way back to the tulip mania. Either the expected profit materializes or it doesn't.
> We're already seeing signs of this strategy from Open AI and Anthropic warning about the dangers of AI and the need for safety regulations
I would read this as a desire to pause training to be able to present a profit in anticipation of the IPO. The major AI labs mad scramble to IPO is if anything a sign that they aren't at all confident in the valuation. If they were they would be no hurry to cash out.
No, it's very unlikely at this point every $1 Nvidia invests brings back $100. Stating something like that is almost a red flag that things are overheating.
seems no one is reading the article..
That's great leverage.
As long as it really is true and continues to hold true for all the big players involved then things should be OK.
Though it does imply that there's got to be a long-term source of returns which is 100x richer than Nvidia is now, and that source is willing & able to give up 100x what Nvidia can afford to spend now, or where else is the return actually going to come from?
OTOH if the leverage turns out to be unsustainable, or never was quite as extreme as estimated, then adjustments will have to occur, whether that amounts to carefully planned compensation for any shortcomings, or more abrupt developments which relieve undue pressure.
But still, it seems that billionaires are lying left and right. It isn't just Elon.
So, in one aspect, like the Matrix, they're not lying: they litterally see that on the paper they're reading from.
But like in the matrix, they just need to be unplugged from the bullshit machine to recognize that this money doesn't exist in the real world.
Scientists, particularly the ones who get ragged on, you know, social scientists, are now well aware that no matter how well any given social goal works in the lab; no matter how much pscyhology they evaluate, depend on, etc, what matters is real world implementation.
Thier sheets of cash raining in from some future valuation simply do not exist in a vacuum, but they want to pretend it does.
So we're litterally watching capitalists look at their piece of meat inside the matrix, and telling us: they do not care that it doesn't actually exists, because on the Capitalism ledger, it feels like real meat.
We are not at the top of this trend yet so I do not see this as over investment.
I remember the criticism Microsoft got for investing in Facebook/Meta that gave them a whooping $15B valuation and getting 1.7% in 2007. Not all deals will turn out that prescient but a few will and make up for any duds. This is a real market.
No, it's a high risk gamble.
If the market grows enough they will win the bet, but if the market doesn't or we get a recession that dries up capital they will be holding the bag.
So for this to become true there are some number of jobs that that pay $N salary are replaced completely by LLMs that do the job for $N-0.01?
Is that what you mean by "market grows enough"
Even in a recession I think the shift towards AI would just accelerate since it is usually cheaper than humans.
The real risk I feel if what if AI is too successful and there is a lack of human demand because of dropping wages/employment?
(Then I wonder if sentient robot demand will make up for it? Although I realize that veers into science fiction futures.)
What else should they be buying? US bonds, housing?
as long as things go up people conveniently ignore the lessons from the past.
we are long overdue for a correction and given the fear mongering oligopoly shenanigans we must be very close.
And then the following trend will be humanoids and similar and they are barely getting started.
Its a mighty fine deal for Nvidia
https://www.marginalia.nu/junk/financing.png
What I came up with was Nvidia is maybe slightly overpriced currently, but a bad stock to buy or hold onto because the risk of it shrinking is significantly higher than the risk of it ever doubling again (and it trades at a tech/growth multiple). The case is far worse for Anthropic/OpenAI who, at current pricing, capture such a tiny slice of the pie it's hard to see how they will stay in business long term.
From the article:
> I put in one, and a hundred comes back.”
> The figure was rhetorical, not a disclosed 100-times investment return.
There's a lot more words in there, but it doesn't seem to say anything else.
But the wealth, or value if you will, remains unaffected.
Money isn't wealth. It's just a representation. It used to be wealth back in the days before paper money, when a coin actually had the value it said it had.
Nvidia is investing in their customers by buying their stock. Nvidia is directly buying compute from their customers. Nvidia is making "if you can't find a customer, we'll take all of your capacity" deals. Nvidia is making a ton of fake huge-number deals which are supposed to be realized over time but most likely never will.
They are doing everything they can to make that customer look like a healthy and valuable business which everyone should invest in and loan money to - which in turn flows directly back to Nvidia to buy GPUs and boost their revenue. They are essentially creating sockpuppets to keep external money flowing in so they can keep the money printer running.
And what about the purported "AI frontier slowdown" - if frontier labs stop pushing better and better models, the main way to grow the pie is more users and that will eventually stop, too. Then providers would probably stop buying new hardware hand-over-fist and move to a slower depreciation-based replacement.
But its quite obvious that while there are some similarities its simply not the same. Most analysis, so it seems, are quite surface.
Are there any deeper finical analysis on the investments of Nvidia and how they are financed?
given the stakes, we'd better hope it starts showing up soon.
Is it really that? AI is still heavily subsidized.
When I zoom out to 5 years, it does not look like "keeps falling".
Yes, it seems very possible to me that Nvidia makes a lot of money. They are literally the largest company in the world.
Who pays? Only all the companies, desperately raising as much capital as possible, issuing new stock to do it, going for unprecedented investment rounds, burning cash reserves to fund the largest data centre rollout in history.
Who builds the things that go into said datacenters? The thing that has also raised in price dramatically in recent years?
From sub million to hundreds of millions I could theoretically see. Even tens of millions to billions. And even then I would be extremely skeptical.
But with Nvidia we are talking somewhere in the scale at tens or hundreds of billions. And that is actually very large sums of money. Even if it often does not look like it.
They are also talking out of their asses, as they are massively overselling their capacity, and everyone is on a 5 to 10 year backlog.
Isn't this a contradiction?
--- Bernie Madoff
My name is Charles Ponzi and I approve of this message.
Your salaries if AI works (and takes your jobs), and your taxes if it doesn’t (bubble bursts, your taxes bail them out Becasue it’s too big to fail).
If they put all of their money in the chip business they'd have major problem once someone else makes good enough chips in volume. And Chinese are obviously going to do that very soon.
But if NVidia owns comapnies who buy chips it's winning no matter who they buy the chips from.
With what NVidia is doing, it's making the ride better for themselves and provide a soft cushion for when it ends.
The only way for NVidia to lose is for AI to fail utterly. Which is pretty impossible.
Mega eyeroll
God heavens. It's worse than 2000/2001!
Gotta start selling my portfolio