Back to News
Advertisement
Advertisement

⚡ Community Insights

Discussion Sentiment

56% Positive

Analyzed from 3451 words in the discussion.

Trending Topics

#europe#european#ireland#russia#where#country#more#war#intel#living

Discussion (111 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

HPsquared•about 2 hours ago
Semiconductor fabs involve a lot of hazardous chemicals, process changes and high energy consumption. Exactly the kind of thing European regulations tend to deter or slow down. Which is somewhat fine if there is nowhere else to build it, but if other places are easier, well...
l5870uoo9y•about 2 hours ago
> high energy consumption

Just to address this separately: there is effectively energy rationing in several European countries, where the government intervenes to prioritize who should receive energy first (e.g., the Netherlands and Denmark).

vovavili•about 2 hours ago
A consequence of a totally self-imposed handicap.
alephnerd•about 2 hours ago
Most fabs build their own separate power grid.

And Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan are also energy poor states that have been able to maintain capacity.

The energy excuse is true for some manufacturing processes like automotive in CEE which were pants that were built in the 1990s to 2000s and leveraged Russian ONG, but is a red herring for a lot of other manufacturing processes in Europe.

European states have a coordination problem as Draghi pointed out 2 years ago.

peri-cl•about 2 hours ago
TSMC alone uses 1/8th of Taiwan's electricity (and rising). They make it work.

https://spectrum.ieee.org/taiwan-semiconductor

https://www.datacenterdynamics.com/en/news/tsmc-could-accoun...

piltdownman•about 2 hours ago
I mean Ireland has some of the most strenuous regulations in this regard, with dozens of data centres blocked over planning and environmental impact assessments. Despite this Intel still put €30 billion in turning a 360-acre former stud farm in Kildare into a semiconductor wafer fabrication facility, powered entirely by green energy, and acting a key location for production of Intel’s 14nm process technology. They currently pull 1,677,197 MWh/year from our grid.

More to the point, from 2019 they built €17 billion new fab development which doubled the manufacturing capacity available in Ireland and enabled the production of Intel 4, the company’s most advanced process technology.

mikeyouse•about 2 hours ago
For better or worse, Ireland’s extremely lax tax rules resulted in a ton of multinational corporate cash ‘stuck’ there with companies having the option of spending there roughly tax free or repatriating back to the US at some rate higher than that. It also really helps sell the ‘of course an Irish subsidiary owns all of our IP’ tax claims if there is actual spending there, hence you got all the pharma investment and the capital projects from others like Intel and Apple.
piltdownman•about 2 hours ago
Rather the US lax rules regarding their own enforcement.

The Double Irish (& Dutch Sandwich) where Companies routed profits through two Irish-registered subsidiaries, attributing intellectual property royalties to a management seat in a tax haven like Bermuda, is closed since 2015.

Subsequent sequential mismatch structures (the "Single Malt" tool) that replaced the Double Irish for certain firms using non-EU residency loops were also banned. Finally there's a 12.5% charge on unrealized capital gains when a company moves its assets or tax residency out of Ireland.

The headline tax rate and the effective tax rate are also very different things. France's effective corporate tax rate was actually lower than Irelands - but France is an absolutely brutal place to do business in for employers and they've comparatively no english-language tech FDI to speak of.

alephnerd•about 2 hours ago
"Trapped capital" is not why Intel has doubled down on Ireland.

It's because whenever Intel asks for anything, the Taoiseach, IDA, and Invest Ireland will move mountains to do it.

Ireland is extremely business friendly because their leadership actually listens to industry.

upupupandaway•about 2 hours ago
>construction kicked off in 2019 on a €17 billion new fab development which will double

I think what the OP wanted to highlight is right here: in China or Taiwan etc. this would not have taken 7 years.

piltdownman•about 1 hour ago
I mixed up a tense or two there. It was done in 4 years, even accounting for Covid. The timeline looks like this

2019: Kick-off

2020: Construction in Ireland basically halted due to Lockdown for 18 months

Q3'2023: Fab 34 begins running a ‘First Full Loop’ of silicon

Q4'2023: Fab 34 completed. Doubles the manufacturing capacity available in Ireland, enabling the production of Intel 4 and Intel 3, some of the company’s most advanced process technologies, and the first to incorporate EUV lithography

2024: Intel sold 49% stake to Apollo GM for $11.2bn

2026: Intel buys back stake for $14.2bn

Q2'2026: Intel announce a further $5.7bn investment to upgrade existing capacity for server chips, slated for completion by late 2027

Zagitta•about 2 hours ago
Everyone loves a good race to the bottom with the environment
alephnerd•about 2 hours ago
Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, and the US all share comparable living standards to Western European states yet are able to maintain and expand semiconductor manufacturing.

The issue is with policymaking - coordination between the EU, national, and local governments is weak so high capex projects become risky.

Edit: can't reply

> Your first 3 countries are also incredibly poor comparisons for living standards as they have horrendous work/life balance.

Their hours worked are comparable to most Western European states as well now [0]. Germany is unique in Europe based on hours worked, and is why German industry is pushing to bring back the 40 hour work week.

[0] - https://www.oecd.org/en/data/indicators/hours-worked.html

Zagitta•about 1 hour ago
So now we're suddenly talking about living standards and not environmental regulation?

Your first 3 countries are also incredibly poor comparisons for living standards as they have horrendous work/life balance.

throwaway132448•about 2 hours ago
> comparable living standards

So vague as to be utterly meaningless.

And slow moving regulation literally incentivises high capex long-horizon investment.

cromka•about 2 hours ago
This is some ridiculous speculation, we do plenty of such critical manufacturing in EU. Regulations is not why we don't make highly-integrated chips here.
scotty79•about 1 hour ago
Why then?
mdp2021•about 1 hour ago
A probably non negligible weight is that decadence is bearish.

Those alive invest in long term planning, those with a dead drive get conservative in their action.

yomismoaqui•about 3 hours ago
I'm european and I would buy an ASML t-shirt, will this move the needle enough?
wvbdmp•about 2 hours ago
I would buy that Lego set.
andy_ppp•about 2 hours ago
Oh man… a whole fan would be good https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bReWaZz5Grg but the actual did it already :-)
trvz•about 2 hours ago
Best I can do is half a pair of ASML socks.
aaronbrethorst•about 2 hours ago
Very Red Hot chili peppers of you
m00dy•about 2 hours ago
I would wait for its regulation before the buy :D
Kim_Bruning•about 3 hours ago
So currently europe is exposed to russia-ukraine, us-iran, and shortly china-taiwan. This is not a great place to be in.
odiroot•about 2 hours ago
Our car industry (among others) showed we're quite capable of shooting ourselves in the foot. No need for external "big events".
mdp2021•about 1 hour ago
> We

Get out of Belgium, then - if it was you and your people.

There are clear ideological, decadent faults in the eu administration. They are responsible for the destruction of one of the main continental industries, transferring (even reduced) pollution to Africa, where decent old cars go (with again no effect on global warming), and transferring the enterprise to China.

"The swan's shriek".

Markoff•30 minutes ago
Don't forget the airlines taking the longer more expensive route!
scotty79•about 1 hour ago
It's all because of protectionism. Business got lazy.
kvgr•about 2 hours ago
Yeah, weakness and appeasement gets that.
gib444•about 2 hours ago
What would you do differently? Having to own the consequences, too, remember.
vconnor•about 2 hours ago
No, but it is in times like this that one needs to look forward and invest in the future.
HarHarVeryFunny•about 2 hours ago
European defense industry seems pretty strong
PorciiVorbesc•about 2 hours ago
Compared to who? The US?
HarHarVeryFunny•about 2 hours ago
If it comes down to European vs Russian manufacturing capacity for missiles and hi-tech weaponry, etc, I'd put my money on Europe. Europe also has the advantage of seeing 5 years of Russia throwing their best at Ukraine, having their air defenses repeatedly breached by Ukraine, even deep into Russia using slow low-tech drones - they know many of Russia's weaknesses.
cromka•about 2 hours ago
Yes. The US defense industry depends on European one. Take a look at F35 and where the components are made.
mahmoudhossam•about 2 hours ago
Ah yes, the only country that matters /s
HPsquared•about 3 hours ago
The beatings will continue until morale improves.
bilbo0s•about 3 hours ago
Not really much of a consolation, but it's pretty obvious that the standing committee is perfectly happy to sit back and chuckle while watching the rest of the world burn from that nice safe distance. So at least there won't be any china-taiwan issues.

But that's little consolation I understand. I get that when there are two elephants sitting on you, someone telling you how fortunate you are to not have a third one on top of you as well, is a little annoying.

soco•about 3 hours ago
The brainless policies continue as we speak: traditional parties keep you exposed to financial masters because money talks, and extremists keep you exposed to their masters because, again, money talks. So: money talks and Europe is still a good milking cow.
sajithdilshan•about 2 hours ago
It more due to the fact that the politicians are on a moral kow-it-all high horse than being pragmatic and putting national interest first. As an example all EU leaders absolutely refused to talk with Russia/Putin on putting an end to the war and they were hell bent on militarily defeating Russia. I remember the previous German Chancellor had a phone call with Putin to discuss it and everyone was shitting on him for doing that.

But now Trump is inviting Putin to G20 and I'm sure sure all those EU politician would be all smily and act like no war is going on and gladly talk with Putin. If you think about it the war could have ended years ago and all the Ukranian/Russian lives lost could have been avoided if EU leaders were not so arrogant.

MobiusHorizons•about 2 hours ago
> If you think about it the war could have ended years ago and all the Ukranian/Russian lives lost could have been avoided if EU leaders were not so arrogant.

How exactly is Europe to blame for Russia continuing its war in Ukraine? Russia has clearly demonstrated a lack of interest in peace on any terms that could be acceptable to Ukraine.

brokencode•about 2 hours ago
How do you think the war could have ended? With Ukraine’s surrender?

Not such an easy thing to say if you’re the one facing that threat. Nobody wants their own country to be invaded and conquered.

And Russia would take that as a green light to keep on conquering other former Soviet states. Where do you draw the line?

HarHarVeryFunny•38 minutes ago
> But now Trump is inviting Putin to G20 and I'm sure sure all those EU politician would be all smily and act like no war is going on and gladly talk with Putin

Putin is deathly afraid of being assassinated and is avoiding air travel in favor of trains, has identical offices to film in at multiple locations to hide his location. There is no chance he is getting on a plane to Florida.

> If you think about it the war could have ended years ago and all the Ukranian/Russian lives lost could have been avoided if EU leaders were not so arrogant.

How so? By Europe rolling over and not supporting Ukraine?

bpodgursky•about 2 hours ago
Sorry this is a crazy interpretation of events.

Europe has 15x the GDP of Russia. If they were "hell bent" on militarily defeating Russia, they could have made even tiny sacrifices to the social welfare system, diverted industrial production to military aid, and drowned Ukraine in help. That was a very achievable goal, and they didn't do it.

Instead, the vacillated on importing US natural gas, continued shutting down nuclear power plants, and paid Russia MORE CASH FOR OIL than they ended up giving Ukraine in military aid! They did not in fact, dedicate themselves to this war in any way shape or form.

PorciiVorbesc•about 2 hours ago
> they could have made even tiny sacrifices to the social welfare system, diverted industrial production to military aid, and drowned Ukraine in help. That was a very achievable goal, and they didn't do it.

We already did that. Welfare and funding to social services, elderly care, etc is significantly reduced and with higher bar to get than before 2022 where I live. Plus we're also paying the price in higher housing costs thanks to housing millions of Ukrainians.

It's easy to want a higher reduction on welfare services when you're not the one needing them. It's easy to write cheques that other people have to cash.

sajithdilshan•about 2 hours ago
> If they were "hell bent" on militarily defeating Russia, they could have made even tiny sacrifices to the social welfare system, diverted industrial production to military aid, and drowned Ukraine in help

Why do you think an entire continent with multiple and (sometimes even conflicting with each other) culture, priorities, national interest would do that? EU is an economic union. Not a federation like US

HarHarVeryFunny•about 2 hours ago
Europe has been stepping up a lot recently, given Trump's reluctance to push back against Putin - looks at UK/France supply of missile and anti-missile systems and IP to Ukraine, stepped up air defense based out of Lithuania (anticipating Kaliningrad as the first front of the war), etc.
kettleballroll•about 2 hours ago
That's a weird stance to take. If someone invaded a other territory next to yours and some of your unions members fear they're next, business as usual is the wrong strategy, imo
sajithdilshan•about 2 hours ago
That's why diplomacy is important. There is no scenario that Europe, let alone Ukraine can militarily defeat Russia (a country with nuclear weapons). I understand defending the territory. But what is the end game? fight forever? or mutual destruction?
HarHarVeryFunny•about 2 hours ago
The only way to stop Putin is with military force.

Europe is of course well aware that war with Russia seems increasingly inevitable, and have been preparing for it.

sajithdilshan•about 2 hours ago
> Europe is of course well aware that war with Russia seems increasingly inevitable, and have been preparing for it

What is the source for this? I have seen some news articles with this narrative, it was more on the line of fear-mongering rather than providing evidence.

skeledrew•16 minutes ago
China is where the demand is. Sell to China and stop being an ass and US's puppet.
t43562•about 2 hours ago
It seems to be "dump on Europe" day which I'm sure is popular but lets just stop for a second and ask what the sales of ASML machinery to the US would be without the CHIPS act .... a massive subsidy. Aren't subsidies supposed to be a bad European thing??? I'm confused. Are we free market proponents or planned economy proponents?
upupupandaway•about 2 hours ago
I don't think this is the main point (subsidies). ASML sold nothing in Europe because Europe is not a factor in semi manufacturing, primarily due to regulations and bureaucracy.
hn_submit•about 2 hours ago
Europe is continually complaining about its dependency on Chinese steel, cars, electronics and semiconductors yet their carmakers are buying cheap Chinese steel instead of European steel and European semiconductor manufacturers are preferring cheap Chinese semiconductor equipment over ASML gear.

The European Commission wanted to put hefty tariffs on dumped Chinese steel but the carmakers sought an exemption. They don't care about European sovereignty, only about their profits. Penny wise and pound foolish. I doubt there will still be a European car industry in two decades or so.

Europe is a lost continent.

DarkNova6•about 2 hours ago
> Europe is continually complaining about its dependency on Chinese steel, cars, electronics and semiconductors yet their carmakers are buying cheap Chinese steel instead of European steel and European semiconductor manufacturers are preferring cheap Chinese semiconductor equipment over ASML gear.

You clearly have no idea about the value creation chain. Steel is a commodity, why shoot yourself into the foot by buying expensive one. And semiconductors are not commodities.

But I guess this logic only makes sense to a country that insists on using its own overpriced steel to save a couple jobs.

hn_submit•about 1 hour ago
How are you gonna fight a war when you can't make the steel for your bullets and artillery grenades? Yes, that's the scary logic we need to take into account these days.

Steel is not a commodity, it's a basic ingredient in any industrial base.

petcat•about 2 hours ago
> Another concern is that even advanced silicon produced in Ireland or at ESMC is then shipped to other regions for packaging, meaning that European companies have largely lost their ability to produce sophisticated chips entirely in Europe. In turn, this means that, for now, there is hardly any strategic point for European authorities to create demand for chips that are 'Made in Europe' because they are either not assembled in Europe, not produced in Europe, or not developed in Europe. We have no idea whether this is eventually going to change, but there are currently no signs that it will.

This is just such a dire situation to be in. Even USA has seen the writing on the wall regarding China-Taiwan which is why it has been strategically re-homing all the most advanced chip fab technology to Arizona [1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TSMC_Arizona

alephnerd•about 2 hours ago
This was a major flaw that I and others brought up a couple years ago when the EU was consulting industry about making its own CHIPS Act.

While bleeding edge backend processes got the bulk of reporting, the major push for the American CHIPS Act was the rebuild packaging capacity in the US (Samsung is working on this in Texas).

This was also the same approach Taiwan, Malaysia, and China used to climb up the semiconductor value chain.

The EU also failed to tie design capacity together as well, as semiconductor design capacity is almost nonexistent in Europe.

piltdownman•about 2 hours ago
Semiconductor design capacity is a massive issue almost always overlooked in these conversations. Spot on.
hn_submit•34 minutes ago
There's certainly semiconductor design capacity in Europe, but it's mostly geared towards low-end semiconductors, like the ones used in automotive and industrial. NXP and ST are designing ICs in Europe but relatively commodity stuff like low-end MCUs and motor controllers.
expedition32•about 2 hours ago
The Netherlands has always put its economic chips on America and Asia.

Europe is just a geographic accident as far as the Dutch are concerned.

joinHNtheysaid•about 2 hours ago
Cultures that make, europe has lost that,imported a ton of culture that takes. Same as the us, empire might might be a ressource curse in disguise.
468854259853•about 2 hours ago
Are you saying the surgeons and phamacists practicing their trade on the streets are not an enrichment?
okokwhatever•about 3 hours ago
Amusement Park continent. And yes, I'm European and know what I'm talking about.
Tade0•about 2 hours ago
You must be living in one of those nicer parts where tourism is present.
PorciiVorbesc•about 2 hours ago
High tourism doesn't make a place more livable for teh locals.
nwatson•about 2 hours ago
Sounds interesting. Now go make me a cappuccino before my next ride.
bethekidyouwant•about 3 hours ago
What is perhaps more important from ASML's standpoint is that none of the ongoing fab projects in Europe are leading-edge fabs set to use EUV and eventually High-NA EUV lithography scanners. The tools that European fabs use today and that new facilities are set to use in the future are mature tools that cost considerably less than advanced EUV or immersion DUV scanners. This is perhaps a concern for ASML, as the company is naturally interested in selling its more sophisticated and expensive equipment.

Missing from article is where they are selling which I assume is mostly Taiwan and America.

cl42•about 3 hours ago
Bloomberg[1] has a breakdown based on ASML filings. For Q2, Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan made up 77% of ASML's orders, with China representing another 14%. Given China is on the list, I imagine this includes non-EUV tech as well given the sanctions.

The fact that Europe has incredibly limited frontier chip making capability is the issue, though. Even if they can produce other chips, its position is not at all resilient.

[1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-09-22/asml-exec...

HarHarVeryFunny•about 2 hours ago
The US isn't in a whole lot better position. We've got Intel and Micron, but otherwise dependent on TSMC (and ASML).

I guess the US chip designers could switch to Intel as a fab if they had to, but there are not even any US-made DUV machines, so far from self-sufficient.

hn_submit•30 minutes ago
Europe is mostly interested in supporting its car industry. But soon they won't have to worry about that either.

There are no companies in Europe designing high-end semiconductors because the wages are much lower than in the U.S. The best European talent is moving Stateside and raking in ten times what they can get at home without having to build up seniority first.

HarHarVeryFunny•about 3 hours ago
US is only 10-15% of ASML's sales
Advertisement
ChrisArchitect•about 2 hours ago
tehjoker•about 3 hours ago
I can't imagine it is cheap to get EUV machines these days. Maybe they don't want to get into a bidding war with America and Taiwan and are waiting for things to cool down?
Culonavirus•about 3 hours ago
They don't call us Europoors for nothing
okokwhatever•about 3 hours ago
So true it hurt mate...
rvz•about 3 hours ago
Europe has no money.
piltdownman•about 1 hour ago
The average salary (not including RSUs/Bonus) in Dublin's Silcon Docklands is north of €130k+, with sick pay, 23 days leave, and the sort of employee protections which would be an utter fantasy in the US (defined redundancy payments, mandated collective bargaining, governance processes around mass redundancy handling at state level).

This was hugely evident during the recent spate of tech layoffs - employers planning collective dismissals are obliged to hold a mandatory 30-day consultation with employee representatives and notify the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment beforehand. Issuing premature "done deal" announcements before meaningful consultation breaches Irish law.

Even at the micro level, non-collective or individual restructuring must still rely on objective selection criteria and fair procedures. Failing to do so exposes employers to Workplace Relations Commission (WRC) claims for unfair or constructive dismissal.

There's also very very strict regulations around work/life issues. A famous case this year in 2023 where a Customer Care Team Lead at the Dublin office of Israeli software company Wix was dismissed after posting comments on LinkedIn. In her posts, she described Israel as a "terrorist state" and referred to Zionism as "the root of violence" while expressing solidarity with the Palestinian people. In July 2024, the WRC ordered Wix to pay Carey €35,000 in compensation after Wix acknowledged that the dismissal was "procedurally unfair" under Irish employment law.

In short, we're not that poor and have significant societal safety-nets that make up the delta in direct wages.

prerok•about 2 hours ago
It's actually the other way around. All we have is money that we stole from the colonies.

If the car companies actually go down the drain I have no clue what products of note we would still be producing that would continue to bring money in. So, I think our goose is cooked here in Europe.

piltdownman•about 1 hour ago
I mean this is just such FUD.

In Ireland alone we manufacture:

* Cardiovascular Stents (80% of Global Supply)

* Orthopaedic Knee Implants (75% of Global Supply)

* Acute Hospital Ventilators (50% of Global Supply)

* Contact Lenses (World Leader)

19 of the world's top 20 pharmaceutical companies operate manufacturing, R&D, or biopharma facilities in Ireland; this compromises over 50% of all physical goods exported from Ireland, totaling well over €100 billion annually. Needless to say it's also the pivotal manufacturing hub for high-demand GLP-1 weight-loss and diabetes treatments (like Mounjaro).

Ireland is among the top global exporters of antisera, blood fractions, and complex cell cultures, making it indispensable to global healthcare infrastructure.

Ireland is the absolute world leader in dairy science per capita, and produces roughly 10% to 15% of the entire world's infant milk formula, with estimates indicating that roughly one in ten to one in seven babies globally consume formula manufactured in the country.

That's an Island of less than 5 million people, 1/8th the size of Texas, that was basically bypassed by the Industrial Revolution and had no colonial benefit. Now extrapolate for a second and imagine what Germany is manufacturing.

__m•about 2 hours ago
It’s all invested in American companies
yomismoaqui•about 2 hours ago
And yet, more USians move to my "poor" country than the other way around. Make of that what you will.
PorciiVorbesc•about 2 hours ago
>more USians move to my "poor" country than the other way around.

Retirees and people who already made money to outbid the locals on housing and purchasing power.

Why would they move to a more expensive country where they'd feel poor?

yomismoaqui•about 2 hours ago
Emigrating is not an easy task (even with money), think why they do it and why the don't want to live on the country they were born.

Think about it... a hint, it's not about money.

TMWNN•about 2 hours ago
That well-paid Americans like to WFH on Malaga beaches is not a testament to the Spanish economy, but to its weather and (more importantly) low cost of living.

In any case, don't be too sure about your claim. According to <https://ourworldindata.org/where-do-migrants-live-and-where-...>, 170K Spanish-born live in the US. By contrast, 69K US-born live in Spain <https://ourworldindata.org/where-do-migrants-live-and-where-...>. Given that the US (341 million) has 7.25 times Spain's population (47 million), this means that a Spaniard is 17-18 times more likely to move to the US, than an American is to move to Spain.

ar0•about 2 hours ago
This is… a mathematically correct but practically useless way to compare migration flows. Using this approach, Singaporeans are more likely to move to China than Chinese to move to Singapore. Mathematically true, and tells us much about the relative sizes of these two countries, but very, very little about relative attractiveness as a place of living.
yomismoaqui•about 2 hours ago
And healthcare, better food, better public transport, security, human relations, lifespan... and above all, happiness.

The american dream is dead, US is a country for working, not for living.

gib444•about 2 hours ago
Absolutely also a testament to escaping Trump too. I have met many all over Europe, all ages – UK, Netherlands, Spain, Portugal, Ireland etc who mentioned it. Including many previously living in California, Florida, Colorado etc with a decent climate, who were earning very good money.

Definitely a testament to each country too - presumably they have a fairly wide choice. They wouldn't go somewhere they disliked the culture that much. We know how discerning US folk are.

marky1991•about 2 hours ago
If we were to take all preceding arguments seriously, couldn't that be explained by americans going to live in a low-cost-of-living country once they've earned their living?

(Don't know your country to know if that's true or not, but it's a possibility)

yomismoaqui•about 2 hours ago
Are you looking for money or are you looking for a good life?

My country offers them both, people from lots of countries como here looking for money and also for a better way of living.

The lesson explains itself.

pb7•about 2 hours ago
The demonym is American, not whatever you wrote. Unless your poor country is New Zealand, that's not the case.
yomismoaqui•about 2 hours ago
Being pedantic America is the continent. So a chilean should be as "American" as Donald Trump.