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Discussion (293 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews
We'll be keeping an eye on open models (of which we already make good use of). I think that's the way forward. Actually it would be great if everybody would put more focus on open models, perhaps we can come up with something like the "linux/postgres/git/http/etc" of the LLMs: something we all can benefit from while it not being monopolized by a single billionarie company. Wouldn't it be nice if we don't need to pay for tokens? Paying for infra (servers, electricity) is already expensive enough
One of two main reasons why I'm wary of LLMs. The other is fear of skill atrophy. These two problems compound. Skill atrophy is less bad if the replacement for the previous skill does not depend on a potentially less-than-friendly party.
It was an experiment to see if I could enter a mature codebase I had zero knowledge of, look at it entirely through an AI, and come to understand it.
And it worked! Even though I've only worked on the codebase through Claude, whenever I pick up a ticket nowadays I know what file I'll be editing and how it relates to the rest of the code. If anything, I have a significantly better understanding of the codebase than I would without AI at this point in my onboarding.
I've worked with people who will look at code they don't understand, say "llm says this", and express zero intention of learning something. Might even push back. Be proud of their ignorance.
It's like, why even review that PR in the first place if you don't even know what you're working with?
A good dev would've read deeper into the concern and maybe noticed potential flaws, and if he had his own doubts about what the concern was about, would have asked for more clarification. Not just feed a concern into AI and fling it back. Like please, in this day and age of AI, have the benefit of the doubt that someone with a concern would have checked with AI himself if he had any doubts of his own concern...
We have gone multi cloud disaster recovery on our infrastructure. Something I would not have done yet, had we not had LLMs.
I am learning at an incredible rate with LLMs.
But I’m so much more detached of the code, I don’t feel that ‘deep neural connection’ from actual spending days in locked in a refactor or debugging a really complex issue.
I don’t know how a feel about it.
That’s product atrophy, not skill atrophy.
What an interesting paradox-like situation.
And not even just understanding, but verifying that they’ve implemented the optimal solution.
I don't believe it. Having something else do the work for you is not learning, no matter how much you tell yourself it is.
Could you do it again without the help of an LLM?
If no, then can you really claim to have learned anything?
When future humans rediscover mathematics.
I fear that this may not be feasible in the long term. The open-model free ride is not guaranteed to continue forever; some labs offer them for free for publicity after receiving millions in VC grants now, but that's not a sustainable business model. Models cost millions/billions in infrastructure to train. It's not like open-source software where people can just volunteer their time for free; here we are talking about spending real money upfront, for something that will get obsolete in months.
Current AI model "production" is more akin to an industrial endeavor than open-source arrangements we saw in the past. Until we see some breakthrough, I'm bearish on "open models will eventually save us from reliance on big companies".
It’s like saying clothing manufacturers are paying the “loom tax” tax when they could have been weaving by hand…
Where producing 2x the t-shirts will get you ~2x the revenue, it's quite unlikely that 10x the code will get you even close to 2x revenue.
With how much of this industry operates on 'Vendor Lock-in' there's a very real chance the multiplier ends up 0x. AI doesn't add anything when you can already 10x the prices on the grounds of "Fuck you. What are you gonna do about it?"
Open source libraries and projects together with open source AI is the only way to avoid the existential risks of closed source AI.
Frontier labs are incentivized to keep it that way, and they're investing billions to make AI = API the default. But that's a business model, not a technical inevitability.
But it requires that one does not do something stupid.
Eg. For recurring tasks: keep the task specification in the source code and just ask Claude to execute it.
The same with all documentation, etc.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, local models are "there" in terms of true productive usage for complex coding tasks. Like, for real, there.
The issue right now is that buying the compute to run the top end local models is absurdly unaffordable. Both in general but also because you're outbidding LLM companies for limited hardware resources.
You have a $10K budget, you can legit run last year's SOTA agentic models locally and do hard things well. But most people don't or won't, nor does it make cost effective sense Vs. currently subsidized API costs.
Early last year or late last year?
opus 4.5 was quite a leap
Google just released Gemma 4, perhaps that'd be worth a try?
I'm still surprised top CS schools are not investing in having their students build models, I know some are, but like, when's the last time we talked about a model not made by some company, versus a model made by some college or university, which is maintained by the university and useful for all.
It's disgusting that OpenAI still calls itself "Open AI" when they aren't truly open.
1. Opencode
2. Fireworks AI: GLM 5.1
And it is SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than Claude. I'm waiting eagerly for something new from Deepseek. They are going to really show us magic.
My manager doesn't even want us to use copilot locally. Now we are supposed to only use the GitHub copilot cloud agent. One shot from prompt to PR. With people like that selling vendor lock in for them these companies like GitHub, OpenAI, Anthropic etc don't even need sales and marketing departments!
Training and inference costs so we would have to pay for them.
I hit my 5 hour limit within 2 hours yesterday, initially I was trying the batched mode for a refactor but cancelled after seeing it take 30% of the limit within 5 minutes. Had to cancel and try a serial approach, consumed less (took ~50 minutes, xhigh effort, ~60% of the remaining allocation IIRC), but still very clearly consumed much faster than with 4.6.
It feels like every exchange takes ~5% of the 5 hour limit now, when it used to be maybe ~1-2%. For reference I'm on the Max 5x plan.
For now I can tolerate it since I still have plenty of headroom in my limits (used ~5% of my weekly, I don't use claude heavily every day so this is OK), but I hope they either offer more clarity on this or improve the situation. The effort setting is still a bit too opaque to really help.
Here is a comparison for 4.5, 4.6 and 4.7 (Output Tokens section):
https://artificialanalysis.ai/?models=claude-opus-4-7%2Cclau...
4.7 comes out slightly cheaper than 4.6. But 4.5 is about half the cost:
https://artificialanalysis.ai/?models=claude-opus-4-7%2Cclau...
Notably the cost of reasoning has been cut almost in half from 4.6 to 4.7.
I'm not sure what that looks like for most people's workloads, i.e. what the cost breakdown looks like for Claude Code. I expect it's heavy on both input and reasoning, so I don't know how that balances out, now that input is more expensive and reasoning is cheaper.
On reasoning-heavy tasks, it might be cheaper. On tasks which don't require much reasoning, it's probably more expensive. (But for those, I would use Codex anyway ;)
After a few basic operations (retrospective look at the flow of recent reviews, product discussions) I would expect this to act like a senior member of the team, while 4.6 was good, but far more likely to be a foot-gun.
https://artificialanalysis.ai/?intelligence-efficiency=intel...
Looking at their cost breakdown, while input cost rose by $800, output cost dropped by $1400. Granted whether output offsets input will be very use-case dependent, and I imagine the delta is a lot closer at lower effort levels.
Tokenizer changes are one piece to understand for sure, but as you say, you need to evaluate $/task not $/token or #tokens/task alone.
I’ve noticed 4.7 cycling a lot more on basic tasks. Though, it also seems a bit better at holding long running context.
Though, from my limited testing, the new model is far more token hungry overall
And even then... why can't they write a novel? Or lowering the bar, let's say a novella like Death in Venice, Candide, The Metamorphosis, Breakfast at Tiffany's...?
Every book's in the training corpus...
Is it just a matter of someone not having spent a hundred grand in tokens to do it?
There's a lot of bad writing out there, I can't imagine nobody has used an LLM to write a bad novella.
I provide four examples in my comment...
The "small subset" argument is profoundly unconvincing, and inconsistent with both neurobiology of the human brain and the actual performance of LLMs.
The transformer architecture is incredibly universal and highly expressive. Transformers power LLMs, video generator models, audio generator models, SLAM models, entire VLAs and more. It not a 1:1 copy of human brain, but that doesn't mean that it's incapable of reaching functional equivalence. Human brain isn't the only way to implement general intelligence - just the one that was the easiest for evolution to put together out of what it had.
LeCun's arguments about "LLMs can't do X" keep being proven wrong empirically. Even on ARC-AGI-3, which is a benchmark specifically designed to be adversarial to LLMs and target the weakest capabilities of off the shelf LLMs, there is no AI class that beats LLMs.
The human brain is not a pretrained system. It's objectively more flexible than than transformers and capable of self-modulation in ways that no ML architecture can replicate (that I'm aware of).
I've seen plenty of wacky test-time training things used in ML nowadays, which is probably the closest to how the human brain learns. None are stable enough to go into the frontier LLMs, where in-context learning still reigns supreme. In-context learning is a "good enough" continuous learning approximatation, it seems.
And yes, Claude models are generally more fun to use than GPT/Codex. They have a personality. They have an intuition for design/aesthetics. Vibe-coding with them feels like playing a video game. But the result is almost always some version of cutting corners: tests removed to make the suite pass, duplicate code everywhere, wrong abstraction, type safety disabled, hard requirements ignored, etc.
These issues are not resolved in 4.7, no matter what the benchmarks say, and I don't think there is any interest in resolving them.
It seems that they got a grip on the "coding LLM" market and now they're starting to seek actual profit. I predict we'll keep seeing 40%+ more expensive models for a marginal performance gain from now on.
This part of the above comment strikes me as uncharitable and overconfident. And, to be blunt, presumptuous. To claim to know a company's strategy as an outsider is messy stuff.
My prior: it is 10X to 20X more likely Anthropic has done something other than shift to a short-term squeeze their customers strategy (which I think is only around ~5%)
What do I mean by "something other"? (1) One possibility is they are having capacity and/or infrastructure problems so the model performance is degraded. (2) Another possibility is that they are not as tuned to to what customers want relative to what their engineers want. (3) It is also possible they have slowed down their models down due to safety concerns. To be more specific, they are erring on the side of caution (which would be consistent with their press releases about safety concerns of Mythos). Also, the above three possibilities are not mutually exclusive.
I don't expect us (readers here) to agree on the probabilities down to the ±5% level, but I would think a large chunk of informed and reasonable people can probably converge to something close to ±20%. At the very least, can we agree all of these factors are strong contenders: each covers maybe at least 10% to 30% of the probability space?
How short-sighted, dumb, or back-against-the-wall would Anthropic have to be to shift to a "let's make our new models intentionally _worse_ than our previous ones?" strategy? Think on this. I'm not necessarily "pro" Anthropic. They could lose standing with me over time, for sure. I'm willing to think it through. What would the world have to look like for this to be the case.
There are other factors that push back against claims of a "short-term greedy strategy" argument. Most importantly, they aren't stupid; they know customers care about quality. They are playing a longer game than that.
Yes, I understand that Opus 4.7 is not impressing people or worse. I feel similarly based on my "feels", but I also know I haven't run benchmarks nor have I used it very long.
I think most people viewed Opus 4.6 as a big step forward. People are somewhat conditioned to expect a newer model to be better, and Opus 4.7 doesn't match that expectation. I also know that I've been asking Claude to help me with Bayesian probabilistic modeling techniques that are well outside what I was doing a few weeks ago (detailed research and systems / software development), so it is just as likely that I'm pushing it outside its expertise.
I said "it seems like". Obviously, I have no idea whether this is an intentional strategy or not and it could as well be a side effect of those things that you mentioned.
Models being "worse" is the perceived effect for the end user (subjectively, it seems like the price to achieve the same results on similar tasks with Opus has been steadily increasing). I am claiming that there is no incentive for Anthropic to address this issue because of their business model (maximize the amount of tokens spent and price per token).
My workflow is to give the agent pretty fine-grained instructions, and I'm always fighting agents that insist on doing too much. Opus 4.5 is the best out of all agents I've tried at following the guidance to do only-what-is-needed-and-no-more.
Opus 4.6 takes longer, overthinks things and changes too much; the high-powered GPTs are similarly flawed. Other models such as Sonnet aren't nearly as good at discerning my intentions from less-than-perfectly-crafted prompts as Opus.
Eventually, I quit experimenting and just started using Opus 4.5 exclusively knowing this would all be different in a few months anyway. Opus cost more, but the value was there.
But now I see that 4.7 is going to replace both 4.5 and 4.6 in VSCode Copilot, and with a 7.5x modifier. Based on the description, this is going to be a price hike for slower performance — and if the 4.5 to 4.6 change is any guide, more overthinking targeted at long-running tasks, rather than fine-grained. For me, that seems like a step backwards.
After just ~4 prompts I blew past my daily limit. Another ~7 more prompts & I blew past my weekly limit.
The entire HTMl/CSS/JS was less than 300 lines of code.
I was shocked how fast it exhausted my usage limits.
With enterprise subscription, the bill gets bigger but it's not like VP can easily send a memo to all its staff that a migration is coming.
Individuals may end their subscription, that would appease the DC usage, and turn profits up.
Sticking with codex. Also GPT 5.5 is set to come next week.
If tech companies convince Congress that AI is an existential issue (in defense or even just productivity), then these companies will get subsidies forever.
And shafting your customers too hard is bad for business, so I expect only moderate shafting. (Kind of surprised at what I've been seeing lately.)
If I can have Claude write up the plan, and the other models actually execute it, I'd get the best of both worlds.
(Amusingly, I think Codex tolerates being invoked by Claude (de facto tolerated ToS violation), but not the other way around.)
You could nonetheless have Codex write up the plan to an .md file for Claude (perhaps Sonnet or even Haiku?) to execute.
I think people aren’t reading the system cards when they come out. They explicitly explain your workflow needs to change. They added more levels of effort and I see no mention of that in this post.
Did y’all forget Opus 4? That was not that long ago that Claude was essentially unusable then. We are peak wizardry right now and no one is talking positively. It’s all doom and gloom around here these days.
I'm surprised that it's 45%. Might go down (?) with longer context answers but still surprising. It can be more than 2x for small prompts.
Our default topology is a two-agent pair: one implementer and one reviewer. In practice, that usually means Opus writing code and Codex reviewing it.
I just finished a 10-hour run with 5 of these teams in parallel, plus a Codex run manager. Total swarm: 5 Opus 4.7 agents and 6 Codex/GPT-5.4 agents.
Opus was launched with:
`export CLAUDE_AUTOCOMPACT_PCT_OVERRIDE=35 claude --dangerously-skip-permissions --model 'claude-opus-4-7[1M]' --effort high --thinking-display summarized`
Codex was launched with:
`codex --dangerously-bypass-approvals-and-sandbox --profile gpt-5-4-high`
What surprised me was usage: after 10 hours, both my Claude Code account and my Codex account had consumed 28% of their weekly capacity from that single run.
I expected Claude Code usage to be much higher. Instead, on these settings and for this workload, both platforms burned the same share of weekly budget.
So from this datapoint alone, I do not see an obvious usage-efficiency advantage in switching from Opus 4.7 to Codex/GPT-5.4.
To me this seems more that it's trained to be concise by default which I guess can be countered with preference instructions if required.
What's interesting to me is that they're using a new tokeniser. Does it mean they trained a new model from scratch? Used an existing model and further trained it with a swapped out tokeniser?
The looped model research / speculation is also quite interesting - if done right there's significant speed up / resource savings.
Plenty of OSS models being released as of late, with GLM and Kimi arguably being the most interesting for the near-SOTA case ("give these companies a run for their money"). Of course, actually running them locally for anything other than very slow Q&A is hard.
This gives me hope that even if future versions of Opus continue to target long-running tasks and get more and more expensive while being less-and-less appropriate for my style, that a competitor can build a model akin to Opus 4.5 which is suitable for my workflow, optimizing for other factors like cost.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47792764
Is Opus 4.7 that significantly different in quality that it should use that much more in tokens?
I like Claude and Anthropic a lot, and hope it's just some weird quirk in their tokenizer or whatnot, just seems like something changed in the last few weeks and may be going in a less-value-for-money direction, with not much being said about it. But again, could just be some technical glitch.
Maybe I missed it, but it doesn’t tell you if it’s more successful for less overall cost?
I can easily make Sonnet 4.6 cost way more than any Opus model because while it’s cheaper per prompt it might take 10x more rounds (or never) solve a problem.
It was on the higher end of Anthropics range - closer to 30-40% more tokens
https://www.claudecodecamp.com/p/i-measured-claude-4-7-s-new...
It's going to be a very expensive game, and the masses will be left with subpar local versions. It would be like if we reversed the democratization of compilers and coding tooling, done in the 90s and 00s, and the polished more capable tools are again all proprietary.
So over time older models will be less valuable, but new models will only be slightly better. Frontier players, therefore, are in a losing business. They need to charge high margins to recoup their high training costs. But latecomers can simply train for a fraction of the cost.
Since performance is asymptomatic, eventually the first-mover advantage is entirely negligible and LLMs become simple commodity.
The only moat I can see is data, but distillation proves that this is easy to subvert.
There will probably be a window though where insiders get very wealthy by offloading onto retail investors, who will be left with the bag.
Oh well
OpenAI was built as you say. Google had a corporate motto of "Don't be evil" which they removed so they could, um, do evil stuff without cognitive dissonance, I guess.
This is the other kind of enshitification where the businesses turn into power accumulators.
You could call it a rug pull, but they may just be doing the math and realize this is where pricing needs to shift to before going public.
That's an incentive difficult to reconcile with the user's benefit.
To keep this business running they do need to invest to make the best model, period.
It happens to be exactly what Anthropic's strategy is. That and great tooling.
The difference here is Opus 4.7 has a new tokenizer which converts the same input text to a higher number of tokens. (But it costs the same per token?)
> Claude Opus 4.7 uses a new tokenizer, contributing to its improved performance on a wide range of tasks. This new tokenizer may use roughly 1x to 1.35x as many tokens when processing text compared to previous models (up to ~35% more, varying by content), and /v1/messages/count_tokens will return a different number of tokens for Claude Opus 4.7 than it did for Claude Opus 4.6.
> Pricing remains the same as Opus 4.6: $5 per million input tokens and $25 per million output tokens.
ArtificialAnalysis reports 4.7 significantly reduced output tokens though, and overall ~10% cheaper to run the evals.
I don't know how well that translates to Claude Code usage though, which I think is extremely input heavy.
If the models don't get to a higher level of 'intelligence' and still struggle with certain basic tasks at the SOTA while also getting more expensive, then the pitch is misleading and unlikely to happen.
So yes, I expect the price to go down.
What I've been doing is running a dual-model setup — use the cheaper/faster model for the heavy lifting where quality variance doesn't matter much, and only route to the expensive one when the output is customer-facing and quality is non-negotiable. Cuts costs significantly without the user noticing any difference.
The real risk is that pricing like this pushes smaller builders toward open models or Chinese labs like Qwen, which I suspect isn't what Anthropic wants long term.
There are 2 things to consider:
You're balancing the 2, hoping that you win the time to market, making the second point obsolete from a cost perspective, or you have money to pivot to DIY.A smaller builder might reconsider (re)acquiring relevant skills and applying them. We don't suddenly lose the ability to program (or hire someone to do it) just because an inference provider is available.
This is going to be blunt, but this business model is fundamentally unsustainable and "founders" don't get to complain their prospecting costs went up. These businesses are setting themselves up to get Sherlocked.
The only realistic exit for these kinds of businesses is to score a couple gold nuggets, sell them to the highest bidder, and leave.
The whole magic of (pre-nerfed) 4.6 was how it magically seemed to understand what I wanted, regardless of how perfectly I articulated it.
Now, Anth says that needing to explicitly define instructions are as a "feature"?!
Having a taste of unnerfed Opus 4.6 I think that they have a conflict of interest - if they let models give the right answer first time, person will spend less time with it, spend less money, but if they make model artificially dumber (progressive reasoning if you will), people get frustrated but will spend more money.
It is likely happening because economics doesn't work. Running comparable model at comparable speed for an individual is prohibitively expensive. Now scale that to millions of users - something gotta give.
To be clear, I'm not saying that it's a good thing, but it does seem to be going in this direction.
And junior devs have never added much value. The first two years of any engineer’s career is essentially an apprenticeship. There’s no value add from have a perpetually junior “employee”.
Under the hood, what was happening is that older models needed reminders, while 4.7 no longer needs it. When we showed these reminders to 4.7 it tended to over-fixate on them. The fix was to stop adding cyber reminders.
More here: https://x.com/ClaudeDevs/status/2045238786339299431
https://x.com/LechMazur/status/2044945702682309086
latest claude still fails the car wash test
In my opinion, we've reached some ceiling where more tokens lead only to incremental improvements. A conspiracy seems unlikely given all providers are still competing for customers and a 50% token drives infra costs up dramatically too.
Claude design on the other hand seemed to eat through (its own separate usage limit) very fast. Hit the limit this morning in about 45 mins on a max plan. I assume they are going to end up spinning that product off as a separate service.