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Discussion (62 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

iamteddabout 3 hours ago
In all these nostalgic retrospectives, I never read how the zip drive can achieve 100x or more capacity than the floppy. What is the engineering feat that allowed this? There's one paragraph in Wikipedia that says the heads fly across the disk like a hard drive. OK, how did they manage that while the disk isn't sealed? Is that all it took?

Similarly, articles just gloss right over the "click of death" without any technical explanation of what goes wrong. Why were these drives and/or media so prone to failure?

There's nothing new in this article.

masklinnabout 3 hours ago
> I never read how the zip drive can achieve 100x or more capacity than the floppy. What is the engineering feat that allowed this?

Improvement in production processes and materials (e.g. magnetic coatings) allowing smaller tracks and smaller more precisely positioned heads. The 3 1/2 floppy dates back to 1983, the high-density 1.44MB to 1986, the Zip drive was released in 1994.

A “super high density” 20 MB floppy had already been attempted in 1990, and the LS-120, which had the exact same dimensions as a 3.5” floppy (and could read those), launched in 1996, so it was not really exceptional at 6 doubling in 8 years from the 1.44MB floppy.

Also it was expensive, part of that was the lower scale and lack of competition but the increased production requirements were also a factor, Zip drives and media had tighter tolerances.

The click of death was because when the head got misaligned the drive would return it to the home position, if part of the drive had failed the head would never realign so the drive would keep trying, producing a characteristic clicking sound. HDDs can develop the same, but it’s less common than it was on Zip drives. The tighter tolerance were most likely a factor, it was more likely for a zip to age out of tolerance and develop terminal misalignment.

Tuna-Fishabout 1 hour ago
> Improvement in production processes and materials (e.g. magnetic coatings) allowing smaller tracks

Improvements in coatings improve the data per track, but no improvement was needed for increasing the amount of tracks. On a 1.44MB drive there are 100 000 bits per track, but only 80 tracks per side. Or, in other terms, the length of a single bit along the track (on the innermost track) was ~1.2µm, and the width of that same bit, sideways to the track, was ~200µm, for an aspect ratio of 166:1. As far as the media was concerned, roughly 10:1 aspect ratio would have been more than enough, or a normal 1.44MB floppy could have supported more than a 1000 tracks per side.

The limiting factor was that old floppies had no way for the head to follow the track, it was just indexed into a fixed position by the drive mechanism. This meant that the tracks had to be ridiculously wide to support all the possible misalignment on both the reader and the writer. To improve track density, what was needed was some mechanism to make the head locate the tracks and follow them as the disk rotated under them. Iomega solved this by etching shallow concentric circles for the tracks on the surface of the disc. These rings were essentially invisible for the magnetic head, but allowed a separate laser to pick the up and follow them.

wzddabout 3 hours ago
Zip disks were much less floppy than floppies. They felt more similar to a single magnetic hard disk platen. Presumably the stiffness was what enabled the head to float above the medium, while also allowing tighter read/write timing because it wasn't subject to such variation. Having a single manufacturer of the disks (at least initially) probably also helped.
aggakakeabout 3 hours ago
IIRC there's some kind of optical tracking going on.
gugagoreabout 2 hours ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floptical

A related technology with a name that already answers your question.

LeCompteSftwareabout 2 hours ago
The real question is why were 1.44mb 3 1/2" floppy drives used for so long when they were totally obsolete by 1990. I would love to read a more coherent and unified history; my understanding is that there were tons of competing higher-capacity 3 1/2" drives between ~1985 and 1995, but software developers were stuck releasing on 1.44mb because that was the only format which worked reliably across manufacturers. By the time Zip drive came out, software was distributed on CD and higher-capacity floppies were really only used for (geographically) local data transfer.

Wikipedia says there was a serious attempt to standardize a 20mb floppy in 1990 which fell apart: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floppy_disk#High-capacity It's really not the case that Zip made some great leap forward; 15 years of technology's steady march didn't fully trickle down to consumer hardware because of compatibility issues between competing manufacturers.

timbit4220 minutes ago
When Zip drives hit the market, I already had a SyQuest drive and the Zip drive didn't have much more capacity and its parallel interface was slower than my computer's SCSI interface. I assumed Zip disks would be less reliable than hard disks, as floppy disks had been.

The SyQuest had a real hard drive platter in it so you knew it was robust. The Zip platter was harder than a floppy but softer than a hard drive, so you knew it wasn't as robust.

So I had no incentive to buy into Zip. I saw a few people use them but I assumed they'd never heard of SyQuest and didn't know better. I never had anyone ask for data on a Zip disk or want to give me data on a Zip disk, so I never bothered.

Later when the click-of-death started happening, I figured it would die off and people would switch to SyQuest, but then there was Jaz, which wasn't as popular as Zip, and then CD-ROM took over, which held a lot of data, but was still slow (in spite of IDE) and still not as robust as the SyQuest products.

In 1998, at their end, SyQuest had a 4.7 GB unit, I presume to compete with DVD.

harelabout 2 hours ago
Zip drives were great while they were great. I had one and it was amazing at the time. What was even more amazing, is that Toshiba Libretto in the photo. I wanted one since the first time I saw it, and into the early 2000 as a linux/retro machine and never got one. And even though today that form factor is not that special... Still...
brycewrayabout 3 hours ago
Drives like these and the Syquest drives were essential for desktop publishing well into the early 2000s. I sent many such drives to various printing facilities --- or, sometimes (and, here, I really date myself) separate PostScript bureaus --- to obtain high-res, color-separated film for four-color commercial printing, either by local printers or magazines who would run ads for my employers of the time.
dd8601fnabout 1 hour ago
I was just trying to remember the Syquest name. I remembered their products being popular in mac labs (I was a teen at that time).

For a while I badly wanted a zip drive or the (syquest) ez 135 for personal use. But by the time I could afford that stuff I had a scsi board and cd writer… which was clearly the way.

forintiabout 2 hours ago
I bought one of these. In those days, I could keep the JDK in a box of floppies or it could fit in one Zip. Unfortunately, you had to carry your drive with you, because few people had one. So it only really made sense as backup media for me.
dtechabout 2 hours ago
It was probably very localized, where my parent worked in the late 90s every office room had at least one, so my parents also bought one for home so they could easily transfer files.

It almost dissapeares overnight once 32MB+ usb drives became common, much more convenenient.

arvid-lindabout 2 hours ago
I remember really wanting one of these but I'm not really sure for what purpose. The idea of a substantial amount of data off a HDD seemed very appealing, and it was around that time where 1.44mb floppies were no longer sufficient but most people didn't have a CD-RW drive yet. Later in the 90s as CD-RW drives replaced CD-ROM drives there wasn't really a need for Zip drives.

So it seems like to me they had an extremely short window to operate without much competition. CD-Rs being about $15 for a spindle and 6.5x the space was an easy pick.

jerfabout 2 hours ago
I'd offer an alternative take, though it's not completely incompatible with the article: They are an example of the fact that you can buy putting your product on front of lots of people, but you can't buy keeping it there. It has to be good on its own merit to survive. Or at least, it gets more and more expensive to hold it in front of people.

It was, in a lot of ways, too early. I never had one, and I never missed having one. I had other solutions to the problems when they happened. By the time I had the problem, it was not a cost-effective solution.

I know people can pop up and say that it solved some problems for them, but I think the people who it solved problems for, in proportion to the price, weren't enough of a market. By the time they were, CD burners were a much cheaper solution.

If they were 1/4 the price, it might have been a different story... but the price was pretty fundamental to the tech.

You can't buy success. You can buy initial success, but not long term success. By the standards of such products, Zip was relatively successful, because it did have some people it solved a problem for. It was just a minority of their customer base. Enough to hang on for a while, but not to take over the world.

mingus88about 2 hours ago
I worked in a university computer lab in the late 90s and these drives were very popular. Burning a CD was not a similar solution.

People needed primary portable storage and Zip drives were amazing solutions before USB drives.

The school gave each student just 15MB of storage for their email account, which was also their homedir storage for any other school project

But the labs had at least a few stations with Zip drives

The article quotes a pretty low failure rate overall but I suspect college students were seeing these fail a lot more because they just threw the disks in their bags and walked around to class all day. Having to deal with someone whose only copy of their work was on one of these triggers a traumatic response in me.

jerf25 minutes ago
Those were exactly the people I was thinking of when I said it didn't bring enough value. Yes, plenty of students saw a Zip drive bay in their school computers and bought it on the theory that if it was there the schools must know what they were doing and it was a "requirement" of one sort or another. It didn't occur to them that the Zip drives were there because Iomega probably bought their way in, rather than because they were actually a vital tool.

And students may have gotten some minimal, non-zero utility from it, but almost everything they would have been doing at the time would have fit on a floppy disk just fine. Maybe two. The Zip drive was slightly more convenient... for about $150 more. Aroud $300 inflation-adjusted.

That's not $300's worth of value, and especially not $300's worth of value for a college student. I can manage a couple of floppies and "that one time I had a really big project" for $300 as a college student.

Yes, I'm sure you have a story of that one guy who had an 80MB project that fit no other way. But think of all the people who had 96% empty drives because all their documents were tiny that don't come to mind.

You will note that there was no cohort of people coming out of college demanding Zip drives everywhere else in the world after them, because I doubt very many of your students came away with a strongly positive impression of the Zip drive, even for those for whom it worked perfectly.

swiftcoderabout 2 hours ago
Zip drives were very cool, and even cooler, my folks owned a Powerbook G3 at the time, which allowed hot swapping a Zip drive into the expansion bay (in place of floppy/CD/battery)
kennyloginz9 minutes ago
Ah, the pismo
avalysabout 1 hour ago
Magneto-optical drives are what I miss! The nearest thing we ever had to a durable and useable long-term storage media for normal users, as far as I know.
ameliusabout 2 hours ago
Speaking of backup solutions, why don't we ever see pro-sumer priced tape drives? The technology behind capable LTO drives is now more than 10 years old, shouldn't we see some reductions in price now?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_Tape-Open

traceroute66about 2 hours ago
> why don't we ever see pro-sumer priced tape drives? The technology behind capable LTO drives is now more than 10 years old, shouldn't we see some reductions in price now

First, LTO drives are conceptually simple, but if you've ever opened one up you'll know they are a feat of horribly complex engineering.

Second, they are not a commodity product. Infact thanks to the magic cloud they are even LESS of a commodity product than they were 10 years ago because lots of people have either wholesale moved to the cloud or use S3 for backup.

1 + 2 = Low volume product with lots of parts crammed into it = high manufacturing cost = high price.

The orgs who still use LTO in their infra are the sort of orgs who don't blink at the price tag. The cost of the CTO's farts is probably more than a 5k tape drive.

ameliusabout 2 hours ago
> Second, they are not a commodity product.

Are you sure, there's millions of small-to-medium businesses that could use a good and cheap backup solution for terabytes of data.

Ekaros10 minutes ago
How many of them have actual need for terabytes of storage? And I mean business continuity critical one.

Overall they are much better of buying a few external HDDs. Standard interface, sufficient capacity. Just get trusted person to carry one out every month or three months. For continuous stuff just have NAS.

mingus88about 1 hour ago
Backup to NAS is a much better solution for a SMB

My experience with tape is very out of date but I doubt much has changed due to the nature of tape

Tape software sucks. Tape restores are cumbersome. A SMB can literally but a multi TB HDD and just drag and drop, and but the drive in a safe.

A SMB will need to hire someone who wants to deal with this niche tape storage, and why would they bother if they can use a NAS for that and a dozen other things at the same time

Tapes can have a shelf life of 30 years. If you need archival storage then tape is a great solution. For everybody else it’s more trouble than it’s worth.

traceroute66about 1 hour ago
> millions of small-to-medium businesses that could use a good and cheap backup solution for terabytes of data.

Yes, and that's exactly how small-to-medium business IT used to operate.

These days sadly most small-to-medium businesses are drinking the cloud koolaid.

You would be hard pushed to find a small-biz with a comms room these days, when back in the day every half-decent small-biz office would have a comms room with cab and a few servers in it.

Now most small-biz are on Microsoft or Gmail for mail and their office is full of laptops on WiFi.... nobody has any respect for good old-fashioned structured cabling these days either, sadly. ;(

It is what it is, sadly.

Hence only governments, enterprises and, ironically (if rumours are correct) the cloud providers (for their archival S3 products) are still buying tape.

fractallyteabout 2 hours ago
VHS video cassettes could be used as tape drives!

There was this, from the same era: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArVid

And I have this for my Amiga, also same era: http://www.hugolyppens.com/VBS.html

pjmlpabout 1 hour ago
I still have the original one with parallel port connector and a couple of Zip disks.

Nowadays probably would need an USB converter, assuming everything still works.

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bandramiabout 1 hour ago
I remember back in the late 90s we had a war between the ZIP and JAZ drive advocates, but I can't remember what the virtues of each were.
konartabout 3 hours ago
I'm sure this is the second time I even read about them.

I don't even think I've seen a single on here in Russia in the 90s.

5.25 in my fathers company? Sure. 3.5 everywhere else? Da. CDs at some point.

Hell, even minidisc was there (also almost non-existent, I think I know only two people who actually owned a minidisc player).

No sing of Zip.

maximinus_thraxabout 3 hours ago
> I don't even think I've seen a single on here in Russia in the 90s.

I'm not surprised, considering they were expensive. That doesn't mean they weren't popular in the west.

konartabout 2 hours ago
CDs where not cheap either, mind you. Yet CDs replaced cassettes rather quickly.
cyanydeezabout 2 hours ago
They were like a 3-4 year fad while also CD burners were coming online so they did not really provide a significant storage medium because if you wanted large sizes, you typically just needed readonly CDs.

Needing large and Read-Write was the niche than CD-R and CD-RW did much better. Along with CDs in general, they just didn't do much more than span a small temporal gap in value proposition.

T

inglor_czabout 3 hours ago
ZIP drives were too expensive for freshly post-Communist Czechia. A FDD would cost about USD 40-50, much more affordable than the ZIP drive with its 200 USD price tag. And the media were much cheaper, especially if you bought no-name diskettes for, say, USD 2-3. This way, you could discard a bad medium without feeling the economic pinch too much. Discarding a 20 USD ZIP medium would be quite painful.

I think I only saw two computers with ZIP drives in the wild, so to say. Which created its own anti-network effects: if there is no expectation of the other party having a compatible drive, you will either have to do with floppies, or maybe carry an external HDD with you, but you won't use an exotic and expensive format. Pretty much the only plausible use was backup.

I still believe that with a more aggressive price policy, ZIPs could have conquered a lot of territory in the 1990s. But 200/20 USD was just too much money to spend. Not just in the post-Soviet bloc, but almost everywhere in Asia, too. Big markets lost because of the cost, and therefore a chance to entrench the standard worldwide.

inatreecrown2about 3 hours ago
I used a Zip drive with an Akai MPC 2000 over SCSI to store all my songs and sounds. Loved it! Never had a problem with it, and I didn't exactly look after it well. The MPC itself still had the builtin floppy drive, and the zip just blew the floppy away in speed and capacity.
voxadamabout 2 hours ago
That me reminds me of installing a SCSI Zip drive into my roommate's Akai S5000 or S6000 sampler. He and I repeatedly debated whether or not hardware samplers would eventually lose out to software solutions. He was absolutely convinced that there was no way in hell that the precision of hardware solutions would ever lose out to the flexibility of software. In the end, I was right, I'm pretty sure the S5000 and S6000 were some of the last truly hardware samplers of the era. Still, that Akai was a sexy bit of kit back then. As sure as I was that software would eventually win out it was sad to see the amazing engineering and precision of the hardware that was finally overtaken.
TipsForCanoesabout 2 hours ago
> Why Zip drives dominated the 90s, then vanished almost overnight

This is such an odd take to me.

I sold and supported computers in the 1990s. Outside of a few industries, such as desktop publishing, Zip was not popular. The vast majority of computer owners never owned a Zip drive, unlike a floppy or soon to be CDROM.

In fact, I sold far more QIC-80 tape drives for backups than Zip drives.

Zip also didn't vanish overnight, it simple never caught on with most people. However, in the industries that used them, they hung on for a while.

bananaflagabout 3 hours ago
There was also the issue that one would also need a reader. Why would I buy a zip reader if no one else has one (network effect)? (Btw I never saw in my life a zip reader or a zip disk.)

Whereas with USB sticks all one needed was a USB port. I immediately wanted a stick.

michaelbuckbeeabout 2 hours ago
Partially this was solved by the ZipDrive being designed for portability as well (I'm not even sure if there was ever a built in model). So if you needed to copy a large file and take it to a friends house you just took the drive with you.
acranoxabout 3 hours ago
Most of us were using Zip drives to backup our files and then put the disks on shelf. There was no cloud backup, and 100MB was often enough for all your personal files.
masklinnabout 3 hours ago
It was also used by professional who needed to transfer large (for the times) amounts of data but not so much or without the technical background that high density tapes or routinely swapping hard drives was sensible (or possible): images, document scans, …
dd82about 3 hours ago
this. IIRC the internal drive plus two disks being significantly cheaper than an external hard drive of similar capacity
ben_wabout 3 hours ago
Before the first iMac arrived with only USB ports and thereby forced peripheral makers to support USB, USB just wasn't all that common even in the Windows world: why would a 1997 manufacturer bother with USB when all the machines already had all the other ports we here in 2026 find subsumed into USB?

But only a few years later, as you say, USB thumb drives were making Zip drives irrelevant.

acdhaabout 3 hours ago
USB was slooooooow in comparison to SCSI or later FireWire, though, so that took a hardware generations to really catch on.

I think the network effect was more a question of who had tons of data: for example, all of the graphic design shops had Zip or Jazz drives because they needed to schlep client deliverables around so you could just assume they had the hardware. Most people weren’t generating that much data before digital cameras became common.

sublinearabout 2 hours ago
Was it really the iMac that did it? I don't think I remember anyone saying that until recent years. Around the time of the first iMac, just about every home PC already had a pair of USB 1.1 ports because of Windows 98 and a lot more plug and play support.

What I recall being sold for Mac were FireWire peripherals back in the late 90s and most of the 2000s. By 2000, USB 2.0 was too good to ignore and addressed all the pain points manufacturers had with USB 1.1 being too slow. That's when I remember USB drives finally being practical and mainstream.

swiftcoderabout 2 hours ago
The iMac certainly accelerated the adoption curve. There were USB ports on other PCs, but since they also had normal (at the time) ports, no PC users were going out and buying all-new USB peripherals.

Apple's decision to leave out all the other ports meant that a bunch of folks were forced to buy new USB peripherals (and/or adapters), and gave peripheral manufacturers a dedicated market for USB

ndgoldabout 3 hours ago
I loved my zip drive it was loud but I loved that it had my stuff on it and there was no need to compromise on what I would keep or trash, which itself was part of the attachment to this new thing
ndr42about 3 hours ago
Interesting that in that time all kind of external storage solutions emerged: I used Zip drives, the follow-up "Jaz drive" (1GB) and Syquest disks (270 MB?). The latter two chained together with thick SCSI cables to a PowerMac 7200.

Edit: Today I use just 2.5" SSDs in the same way. There's a small sata to usb-c adapter where I plug them in without any further enclosure.

nubinetworkabout 2 hours ago
Jaz was really where the technology excelled, but it also had its own problems, and after dealing with zip failures, iomega was basically dead.
5555624about 1 hour ago
We got a number of these to replace our Iomega Bernoulli Boxes. We skipped the Jaz and went to CDs.
perbuabout 3 hours ago
We had a SCSI zip-drive at our uni and it was a brilliant way to drag megabytes of content home. Even though I had amazing internet (2Mbit shared by 100+ ppl), the zip drive would still be a good way of getting stuff home.

Then I got to experience the click of death and the internet connection was bumped to 100Mbit and I didn't need to replace my zip drive.

lizknopeabout 2 hours ago
TL ; DR

Floppy disks were tiny and slow

Zip drives in 1995 were around $200 and 100MB disk for about $20

CD-R burners in 1995 were $1000 and blank CD-R were about $15 each

By 1999 CD-R burners were around $125 and blank discs were around $1 and dropping fast. I remember when they were $0.10 for a 700MB disc in the 2000s

bombcarabout 1 hour ago
That was exactly the experience I had - there was a very narrow window where ZIP drives were the best option, but once you had some they hung around into the early 2000s.
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TRiG_Irelandabout 2 hours ago
I remember using one only once, while working on computerising the school library. (I did that as a summer job, between school years.)
comrade1234about 3 hours ago
"The problem was estimated by Iomega to affect around 0.5% of Zip drives,..."

I guess I was just majorly unlucky. clickclickclickclick*...

ramses0about 3 hours ago
The other "has been" technology of the era was the "LS-120 SuperDisk". It was backwards compatible with standard 1.44MB 3.5" disks but you could buy special disks with 120MB capacity, and you didn't need to take up two slots on your front bays for both floppy and zip (and could write back to standard 1.44MB disks when taking some files to campus or sharing with "normal" computers). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SuperDisk

...in retrospect as the article states: swept away by CD-rw and USB sticks, but a great technology! There really was a critical gap in "I need to back up _all_ my files or coursework for the semester" or "Wouldn't it be great to be able to fit TEN games on a floppy instead of ONE game on ten floppies?"

It really was a different era!

TacticalCoderabout 2 hours ago
I was there in the mid- to late nineties writing computer books and doing the typesetting myself on QuarkXPress (in the prehistoric era before InDesign existed), back in an era where you'd enter a bookshop and 95%+ of the book and magazines were typeset on QuarkXPress on a Mac.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QuarkXPress

And we'd all have Zip drives and even internal Zip drives reader/writer in our G3. Can be seen on the picture here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Macintosh_G3

They were big indeed and I'd say huge in the publishing industry. Then the CD writers and then DVD writers began to rule to earth.