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It reminds me of one of my favorite parts of How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie, where he tells a story about complimenting someone, and a student asks what he was hoping to gain from offering the compliment. Carnegie is incensed:
> I was waiting in line to register a letter in the Post Office at Thirty-Third Street and Eighth Avenue in New York. I noticed that the registry clerk was bored with his job[...] So while he was weighing my envelope, I remarked with enthusiasm: “I certainly wish I had your head of hair.”
> He looked up, half-startled, his face beaming with smiles. “Well, it isn’t as good as it used to be,” he said modestly. I assured him that although it might have lost some of its pristine glory, nevertheless it was still magnificent. He was immensely pleased. We carried on a pleasant little conversation, and the last thing he said to me was: “Many people have admired my hair.”
> I told this story once in public; and a man asked me afterwards: “What did you want to get out of him?”
> What was I trying to get out of him!!! What was I trying to get out of him!!!
> If we are so contemptibly selfish that we can’t radiate a little happiness and pass on a bit of honest appreciation without trying to screw something out of the other person in return—if our souls are no bigger than sour crab apples, we shall meet with the failure we so richly deserve.
> Oh yes, I did want something out of that chap. I wanted something priceless. And I got it. I got the feeling that I had done something for him without his being able to do anything whatever in return for me. That is a feeling that glows and sings in your memory long after the incident is passed.
Your comment made me consider reading it. This rant about radiating happiness towards people without expecting something in return gives me a different insight on his reasons for writing the book.
I might give it a shot. Thank you
FWIW this book came out in the 1930s, long before "red pilling" was a thing. I've read it before and it's not about manipulating people unless you consider being a genuinely sincere person to be manipulative in some way. It's a good book, if a little outdated, and, if I could summarize it in one glib sentence, its lesson is "If you want people to like you, then be nice to them, be genuine, and show enthusiasm and interest in what they show enthusiasm and interest in."
Bill & Ted said it most pithily: be excellent to each other.
Personally, salespeople have randomly complimented me and repeated my name over and over, and on the receiving end it weirded me out. So the problem is that in certain situations there is an overarching "what did you want to get out of that person?". Don't be those people.
Strike up conversations because you enjoy people and their stories.
Even they said that he seemed to be a pretty alright guy who was genuinely nice to people in his personal life, not just in his public persona.
I need to read it again, I think about it a few handful of times a year, many years later.
but long after The Prince was a thing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prince
Like, I don't even disagree with what he wrote, but most of the stuff just felt a little out of place and intruding on people who generally want to be left alone or keep it to small talk on a different level.
This is the big one. People like to talk about themselves, and often use others' stories to segue it into something about themselves.
I realized at some point if you can avoid doing that, and instead commit yourself to investing in a person's story - ask questions, make comments, etc, they'll think the world of you and often won't even realize why.
The trouble with this book for me was that it often recommends deferring to the other persons sense of self over your own.
There are times this is right, and there are times where it is very shallow. In fact, it can even be very inauthentic & fail to develop your own internal tools.
I think if it helps you start something, great! But for me personally at the youthful age I read the book - it was negative. Today I'm sure I could read it and only take the positive. Mostly it depends on whether you think you "must" behave in those ways, or if you "could, sometimes, by choice"
If being friendly with people is manipulation then I don't really know what to say. I'm more likely to help someone if they are not being a jerk and vice versa.
Well, that's basically the point.
I can confirm it's really good. It's not manipulative at all. The book can large be summed up as "if you want other people to care about you and your desires, you need to care about them and theirs and SHOW them that this is the case: here's how."
Isn't this highly manipulative?
Yeah, I don't think you'll find it a red-pill kind of book at all. I know what you mean about books like The 48 Laws of Power feeling like the world is 100% zero sum, so everything is about dominating or outplaying people.
How to Win Friends and Influence People is very much focused on win-win. There is an agenda to make friends and influence people, as you'd guess from the title, but the strategies are about taking a genuine interest in people and making them feel good.
It's almost 100 years old, so the style is kind of hokey, and only about half the advice resonated with me, but there are 3-4 lessons that had a major impact on me.
"... and Influence People" makes it sound like that's the purpose of befriending someone, i.e. getting them to do what you want, or to do something for you.
I read it though thinking "I'll bulwark myself against manipulators by understanding their tactics" whilst the "Influencing People" book just sounded like manipulative self-interest.
You've changed my mind; I'm going to read it right away.
> This rant about radiating happiness towards people without expecting something in return...
This was one of my main takeaways from the book. I would argue that you do get some things in return: richer relationships with the people you already know, pleasant encounters with people you may not know well, and increased enthusiasm for your own interests compounded by hearing someone else explain how enthusiastic they are about their interests.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-to-win-friends-and...
This is not an unfair view of the book IMO. While OPs excerpt is lovely, the core of the book is all about getting people to say yes and do things you want them to do.
Carnegie is just so good at this, he's even managed to convince you that he has your best interests at heart by trying to teach you how to do this to people.
[0]: I am not formally neurodivergent, but I wouldn't be surprised if I was mildly so.
With my unusual nervous system my expectation was "I know if I tried taking an interest in people all hell would break lose" and it would.
I think Covey's 7 Habits of Highly Effective People [1] covers similar ground and is more complete and more specific.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_7_Habits_of_Highly_Effecti...
A college program required I re-read it. That time, I read it as genuine suggestions of good faith actions. In that light, it was fantastic. Almost 30 years later, I still quote from it.
Your admirable openness to reconsideration reminds me of, "I could be wrong. I often am. Let's examine the facts."
It's two sides of the same coin. Many techniques in that book are things that both genuinely kind people and manipulators do, the difference is intent. In that sense the idea of the book is a bit of a Rorschach test, although the way the author goes about it makes it pretty clear it wasn't meant to teach manipulation.
When I read the book over a decade ago, it did not feel like a red pilled book, it felt like a guide for well-intentioned people to learn how to express that more effectively. On the spectrum between "people orientation" and "task orientation", I was a task oriented person learning how to navigate personal and professional relationships more like a well-adjusted person would, and I suspect I and everyone around me was happier for it.
Makes me think that anything taken too far can be a bad thing. Pity in its raw form is an incredibly empathetic side of our human nature and can be extraordinary.
However, if pity is made a reward system for the people receiving the empathy, it can be used manipulatively. I believe CS Lewis called it "a passion for pity" (I could be wrong).
People are forgetting how to socialize but being social is more or less a straightforward formula. Sometimes people need a guide. It's not evil or manipulative.
The title is unfortunate, and doesn't really reflect the book IMO.
It sounds like a seedy way to manipulate people and get what you want.
I think a more appropriate title would be "Treat people with kindness and decency and your life will probably be better as a result." Or "A manual for interacting with fellow humans".
I need to reread it actually.
Edit: It has been decades since I read it, but that is my recollection of it at least.
Well, it's called "... and influence people", so I see where you were coming from in your assumption.
However, How to Win Friends was written in an era where self-help didn’t have those connotations at all.
There is probably some deeper relationship with current reading trends and contemporary winner-takes-all society, but my impression was that the book was more about middle class aspirations e.g. being charming at a dinner party. Not some kind of Machiavellian social maneuvering like 48 laws of power (“crush your enemies completely”).
In my early adulthood I was deep into MLMs and internet marketing and this book was the Bible, but it was a bit tautological because it was assumed that everyone respected and venerated that book, so all the marketing materials (that we had to purchase of course!) referred to the book.
Indeed, the best way to get rich quick is to sell get rich quick schemes.
On another note, an equally good book that is also used for manipulation is How to argue and win every time by late lawyer Gerry Spence. The book does what it says on the tin but it's more on persuasion methods and framing, which of course can be used for nefarious purposes.
An interesting result of reading those books is one starts to recognize when one is being manipulated.
Just the other day a door-to-door salesman appeared at my door, and he tried a number of classic sales techniques on me. He lacked, however, some accouterments that a legitimate salesman would have, so I had to be pretty firm in saying no.
I've never read this book but have learned through cultural osmosis that this practice largely originated from it. I always found it rather stilted and ever since discovering where it came from I view it with a degree of suspicion. A contrasting, more generous reading is that the people who read the book and do this are trying to do more of the "win friends" part than "influence people." I'm also notoriously bad with names so I can't really blame somebody for perhaps trying to use mine verbally to commit it to memory :-).
(I also view the ability to influence people as independent from morality. It's like learning MMA or hacking or something. They're not inherently "good" or "bad" skills - your morality determines how you'll use them)
Ultimately I think it's great and I recommend it. It's certainly cheap enough! I'm sure there are a zillion copies on eBay for like two bucks.
"What do you care what other people think?"
which should be read after
"Surely, You're Joking Mr Feynman"
Completely unrelated books about curiosity not people skills, but still lots of fun.
"The title made it seem shady and underhanded and manipulative. But then I read it and it just says to be a genuinely nice person with no agenda. Everyone likes to be friends with that kind of person."
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-to-win-friends-and...
Guess I'm reading it too this weekend.
Maybe a lot of the books do cover some of the same content, but that’s probably because human nature hasn’t changed much since the 30s, when Carnegie published his book
That's stretching the definition of manipulation a bit. That's more like having (or emulating) charisma, which isn't a bad thing.
The book may as well be called “how to be a cool person that is well liked and people respect”
The idea that the teachings could be misused frankly says more about the cynicism of the book's critics than the actual content of the book.
I would think a "red pilled" book would focus on resisting manipulation, specifically emotional manipulation.
Changing peoples behaviours isn't always the negative form of manipulation.
I don't think a red pilled book would teach you how to manipulate people. I think it would be an attempt to manipulate you towards a specific (red pilled) view of the world.
This rant about radiating happiness towards people without expecting something in return...
The narrator explicitly says he gets something in return though. I think it's important to understand that seemingly charitable acts are never 100% altruistic, and while that's not necessarily a moral judgement, it is still important to understand people's motivations for doing things.
If you go deep enough, you can convince yourself of that, but you lose what Carnegie talks about. You create your own experience of other people by carrying assumptions like that.
And the ‘how’ generally revolves around just being nice to people - being kind, taking care, noticing, being generous and observant and engaging. The whole idea is that you are good to them, which means they’ll be good to you.
All of which I was already intimately familiar with - I actually don’t think I read anything new in that book, it all seemed like pretty standard stuff… but then again there will always be stuff that seems obvious to you, and it a revelation to others.
I certainly think you could do much worse than treating others according to how that book instructs.
Affecting influence is subtle manipulation. A compliment about someone’s hair is great if you genuinely admire their hair.
But if you read a book about influencing people and suddenly start complimenting people’s hair, time for some introspection.
Strongly disagree with this sentiment. Influence can have a lot of sources, from institutional authority to simply being persuasive, which is distinct from manipulation.
In this context influence and persuasion are being used interchangeably, but persuasion is the act of winning someone over to your point of view, so they understand the topic as you do. It respects their autonomy and acknowledges that people can change their mind when presented with different perspectives. Oftentimes, being likeable (or at least respectable) is a prerequisite for getting someone to listen to you in the first place, so it's a central pillar to being influential.
Manipulation on the other hand, doesn't respect someone's autonomy. It might involve deception, threats, coercion, etc, but it ultimately aims to make someone do something that they don't want to do.
If you're getting a little kid to eat his dinner for instance, persuasion might appeal to his motivations (e.g. having more energy to run faster), while manipulation might look like saying not eating would make his mom sad (guilt tripping), or that he wouldn't get to play with his favorite toy (threat).
The book's also apparently about winning friends, as well. And the excerpt above seems to be about getting better at being nice to people without an agenda.
This is exactly what he’s talking about.
The premise of the book is essentially, “what if you were a generally nice person who deserved friends”.
The whole “you could only possibly pretend to care about other people” response to the book is vaguely psychopathic.
I mean, the title really really implies something potentially dark. But it's just solid, simple stuff through and though.
For me it really hits home that ideas don't have to be new or fresh or amazing to be important. We just need reminders of like, kindergarten ethics.
This is a very important part of learning how to have real conversations with people.
There is too much bad advice about using tricks or hacks to try to start friendly conversations with people. It’s refreshing to see someone learning that a key to healthy conversation is having selfless motives.
Something surprising about How to Win Friends and Influence People is that it’s not as manipulative as the title suggests. A key theme of the book is that you need to be genuine in your interactions. You can’t pretend to be interested in what other people say, you have to actually approach the conversation with interest.
People will see through hidden agendas and ulterior motives. The bad social advice tries to use too many tricks and hacks to formulate a set of interactions that sound good when you’re reading about them but have the wrong effect when you go into the world and interact with other people with a hidden agenda.
This is why I caution against all of the conversation hacks that are recommended, like coming up with excuses to ask someone for a favor (that you don’t really need) as a way to get them into a conversation or pretending to be interested in their life story when you’re only interested in getting someone to talk to you. Others will recognize when there are hidden agendas. It doesn’t set you up for success.
In that sense, trying tricks in order to have a "successful conversation" will always fail so long as you are emotionally invested in advance in the conversation being "successful".
It's far better to be genuine and accept that you have only so much control over how things will go.
If a stranger is light and friendly and asks to hang out, no problem. If they start getting subtly frustrated about your response, your spider sense goes off.
But there are people who will flatter purely for gain. I think being aware of which is which is very useful.
Also who is giving the compliment will factor into how I receive it.
Reading this books was a huge turning point for me as someone with diagnosed mild Autism. I think a lot of the things in this books are fairly obvious to non neuro-divergent folks. But for me, it was like a manual on how to handle myself in social situations, a thing that was mysterious and frustrating to me before. I wouldn't say I am now some sort of socialite, but I am far from the days of being being excluded from basically every social group I attempted to be part of.
I highly recommend the book The Charisma Myth, it covers a lot of the same topics, including very good exercises, to help understand and develop human interactions in general
Personally, it helped me be able to get into, the situations that the first book assumes the reader is already in, or comfortable with (like talking to strangers)
There are societies where talking to strangers all over the place is normal, without any hidden agenda.
Or even dancing with random people at the club, many times never to be seen again. Just to give a more intim kind of example.
While in other cultures, seems that unless there is something to gain from the effort, people don't even try.
It takes some effort to be good at doing this, if people aren't used to getting any kind of compliment then it can land as super awkward.
(hint: avoid commenting on peoples physical appearance directly, always clothing, or hair, make-up, jewellery/watches -- or ideally how they handle themselves)
The "trick" is confidence, knowing in yourself that you mean well and, if challenged doubling down with a broad genuine smile, don't try to half-ass the smile because it makes things awkward-er.
The other thing is that compliments can be broad, but criticisms have to be very specific.
Once you get the hang of it you can make peoples days genuinely better effortlessly, by just saying the positive thing that you're thinking.
"How are you today" → "Better, now you're here" -- Isn't cheesy, if you mean it.
> "How are you today" → "Better, now you're here" -- Isn't cheesy, if you mean it.
To me that's super creepy. It's like a cheap pickup line. It's only something I'd say to someone I'd been dating a while.
> avoid commenting on peoples physical appearance directly
Gym bros love compliments on their muscles. It has to come across as "bro to bro" and not with a "broad genuine smile" (as a gay guy, you'd come across pretty gay IMHO lol)
Maybe the trick is not caring if it comes across as creepy.
If you take my genuine happiness to see you as creepy, maybe thats a you problem.
>> "How are you today" → "Better, now you're here" -- Isn't cheesy, if you mean it.
> To me that's super creepy. It's like a cheap pickup line. It's only something I'd say to someone I'd been dating a while.
Really, if the person actually means it? I think that's the key point.
I think that particular line would come off as creepy pickup line if it came from a stranger, who couldn't possibly mean it except in the most superficial way. I don't think it would come off that way if your relationship with the person is such that it's plausibly true and they don't overuse it.
On that last point, if you actually want to do something like this, I feel like you'd have to have familiar and confidence to use hundreds of phrases like that, for different situations. I'm reminded of an anecdote I read about Ronald Reagan: he was apparently known as being good with little quips and jokes. He apparently spent a huge amount of time working on them so he'd have something ready at any given time.
Full disclosure: I'm bad at complements and do none of this stuff.
Sure, there may be cultures where making comments of people out of the blue might not be seen as normal, but almost everywhere I've gone in this world allows for comments like these.
If anything, modern social interaction has diverged from what is good for us and what we really want.
IMHO that is as fake as a car salesman. Mature, cultured people will say thank you and think "what a nuisance". I prefer being open about my motives. Smart people appreciate truth over compliments. And if the dumb/immature get offended, good riddance.
I used to be a big fan of HtWFaIP, but eventually I realized it's not healthy.
It seems like the word you're looking for is "conceited", and it's a great candidate for traits one should attempt to extinguish in themselves.
If your true motives aren't kind and aren't requested, then those are great candidates to be kept inside, especially during random interactions in third-spaces
Let's expand on it a bit. Is the world a mirror to street salespeople? Is the world a mirror to stalkers? To sociopaths?
How to Win Friends and Influence People: Unrevised Version
https://socialskillswisdom.com/
The funny thing is that I make a habit of doing what Carnegie describes here, and for the same reasons.
As I've gotten older -- I'm 56 -- I also realize I look like the archetypal middle-aged straight white dude, and my cohort doesn't have a GREAT reputation across the board, so I feel like I should be even MORE careful about the energy I put out into the world. And nothing lifts _my_ mood better than being nice to somebody else.
Wanting that priceless glowing and singing feeling is an agenda.
What's next, do you think parents providing for their children is an agenda, merely so the parents can feel good about that glowing feeling about being a good parent?
As a society, we have a certain tendency to feel sorry for ourselves. If we have “social anxiety”, we like to give it a quasi-medical diagnosis. We rarely suspect that we may actually have something bad in our intentions. Many forms of anxiety are actually rooted in impure motives, especially when there is another part of us that conflicts with that motive. The conflict may result from a shred of conscience that enters into a tug-of-war with our impure motives. It could be rooted in a cognitive denial of those motives, as denial of truth can manifest in subconscious turbulence and nervous expressions of emotional energy. Perhaps we want to indulge those impure motives, but lack the chutzpah to do so, creating internal tension (the chutzpah would produce its own psychic anguish). Perhaps we’re selfish, but fail to recognize it. These sorts of things cause turmoil in the soul that can create anxiety.
Think of the “nice guy”. “Nice Guys” are some of the biggest assholes around. They’re two-faced schemers. A “Nice Guy’s niceness” is instrumental; he will be “nice” to a woman he finds attractive, because he has already imagined in his head that this will ingratiate him with her. He has already created a ledger in his mind: “if I am nice to this woman, then she is in my debt and now owes me the desired approval in return”. But the moment this woman fails to conform to the expectations of this “Nice Guy” is the moment his comes for his pound of flesh. You see the mask drop and his nastiness surface. The anxiety is rooted, among other things, in a failure to recognize the humanity and rights of this woman. For him, her meaning and her being are totally exhausted by his sexual desire, perhaps because he sees his own meaning exhausted by her approval, hence the apparent magnitude and terrific importance of her judgement. He wants to dominate by force or by manipulation rather than allow a woman to choose to surrender voluntarily, because she has determined this is good.
Magnanimity is one of the high virtues of classical virtue ethics - a sort of crowning culmination of them - and one of the features of magnanimous people is that they are at ease around others. It is well worth returning to this virtue ethics, because it does enlighten us about the nature of moral excellence.
Love is willing the genuine good of the other, unselfishly. There is no fear in someone of perfect love.
You're right, telling someone bald that they have a great head of hair is not going to work well.
Fortunately, virtually everyone has something you can compliment them about. Even if they're a surly old frumpy shopkeeper, maybe they keep their store super clean and organized. Maybe you're impressed by their loyalty to serving the community for so many decades.
Never say anything that isn't genuine. Fortunately, most people have qualities you can be genuine about.
If I was interested in praising people I would task myself to look at people when I am out in the field and find some kind of praise I could give them. Maybe I give them this praise maybe I don't. Doing this over time I will find it bubbles out of me, the desire to give praise and the words to say comes more and more frequently and quickly and it will come out increasingly. Whether the feeling comes spontaneously or whether you consciously plant a seed and let it grow, it comes across better than if it forced.
Lately I've been practicing deep and rapid synchronization when situations are favorable and I'd say I favor listening and observation over praise except in cases where my feeling is very strong, such as somebody really helped me. There is a long list of language patterns that somebody might read as "somebody is trying to butter me up" and in this mode I avoid them almost entirely. It is important to stay in a "I'm OK, you're OK" [1] frame no matter what happens and to have control of your microexpressions (one wince can set you back permanently) which comes not from an act of suppression but rather going into a situation feeling full and practicing radical acceptance.
[1] see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Berne
1. Be on a quest. Yes a quest. I was trying to buy an old metal key as a gift for a friend. I wanted to find someone who sold sheep's milk (for making cheese). If you are on a quest it gives a context for an interaction. You both have something to talk about and it you both have an out: the answer. People almost always help you with a quest. And this ties with #2
2. Need help. I am lost. I am trying to get to the airport and I don't have much money. I trying to find a good book store. My car won't start. etc. I don't speak English.
3. Humor. Not telling jokes, just have a sense of humor about yourself, your common situation, the world in general.
I especially like being on a quest. Once I asked someone about the key, they sent me another place, they sent me another place and finally I found one. It was a blast. Everyone was helpful. I ended up telling people how I got there, why I was searching etc.
This is unbelievably true.
I did a scavenger hunt (challenge hunt?) in Seattle (hosted by a friend of a friend). Many of the challenges involved interacting with other humans (dance with a stranger, buy someone you don't know a shot, give someone you don't know a rose, etc)
It was so fun. I've never met so many people before. But it struck me how excited everyone was to help out on my quest. Eager, even. I was so nervous to talk to people, but suddenly, having a sheet of paper gave me super powers.
Highly recommend having a quest. People love a quest.
Having some obvious goal like "I'm a tourist and I'm lost" immediately cuts past the "Is this person a scammer/beggar?" you normally think when a stranger walks up to you.
Basically - in "Long Way Round" Ewan and Charlie take two motorcycles and they ride them from the UK east, going through Russia and finishing in the States. But even though they have support crew of two cars following them with extra equipment, it doesn't change the fact that back when it was filmed, they didn't have internet connected phones with them. The maps of Syberia were innacurate, they didn't speak any Russian, they were driving through really difficult terrain and you could "feel" that they were far from civilization - contact with family was infrequent,they relied on kindness of strangers a lot because there was no other way to continue. There was a lot of communicating with hand signs and pointing.
Compare that to their later "Long way up" where they rode up through South America - at that point they both had mobile phones with maps and instant translators - they were never lost, and even in the middle of absolute nowhere they would walk up to a local and just use their phone to translate. They had video calls with their families practically every night. Even though they were in some places no less remote than Syberian roads, it didn't feel remote in the same way.
And yes, I know there are YT travellers who try to artificially follow the same kind of philosophy - no translators, no maps, just going in raw so to speak. But the world has changed. Even if they don't use phones, the locals do even in the middle of the amazonian jungle. And it is amazing how connected humanity is, but there is certainly an era that has ended for all of us.
I really recommend this video, whether you have seen Charlie's and Ewan's adventures or not:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjV3tkrCYIY
So being on a quest is a great approach! You often need help and are in a discovery phase where you need to interact with people. Even if the interactions don’t go anywhere most of the time.
But reflecting on it now, it's because he was always on a quest.
I think talking to the elderly is a great way to learn how society has shaped people's lives over many decades.
"Why don't you just google it yourself?"
Later I went for random people in the street and that was quite awkward. There was simply not much I could work with (what I thought at the time).
This turned out to become a low stake effort to improve my social anxiety. Helped me build humour around it and eventually become comfortable
Fast forward to today, I can literally talk about anything to anyone. The main pattern I follow is to break the pattern and make a joke, be sarcastic respectfully or give a compliment. No permission just something they don't expect. Almost works all the time. It helps with confidence and also makes you realise its all in your head.
And it is fun indeed
“Hi, How are you?”
“Well I woke up this morning and stepped on my dog’s tail by accident. He was not happy with me, but we’re all good now - how about you?”
Your suggestion would work when both people are in the same place for some time, e.g., waiting in line for a coffee, or for a meeting to start or for a lift (elevator) to arrive, etc.
I sometimes go to concerts by myself and like to arrive early to catch the support act. There’s usually a gap of at least half an hour before the main act comes on stage and I make a point of looking around for other people who aren’t on their phone so I can start a conversation. In that situation, I already know we have something in common.
And you know what everyone else is feeling how?
It is like a crabs in bucket mentality mixed with in-group machiavellian politics.
> thinking they're the live of the party, while everyone else is just silently annoyed by them.
Not saying this is you, but my impression is that people who lean into silent annoyance also depend on passive aggression, fueling it with resentment that they aren't as outgoing (or whatever) and deserve the attention instead, and those who are especially anxious and/or neurotic imagine that everyone else shares the apparent negative feelings, effectively acting as they imagine everyone else wants them to act. People have a hard time letting themselves just vibe and roll with it if they think it might make them less appealing by association. Maybe they are the life of the party, since it's not much of one if people can't pump some life into it
I don't doubt people that are, exist, but I highly doubt it's a high percentage and certainly very far from "everyone else".
You also never know what you might experience from talking to someone. You may make a life-long friend. Or learn about something you didn't know.
It doesn't mean blab about things you shouldn't, being insensitive, etc - but isolation is not the answer.
That detail is probably unnecessary.
I'm having to learn this about online dating too. My online dates traditionally don't go anywhere because typically they've been about just exchanging information, which is frankly boring to both parties.
You have to (gently) riff and tease a bit or it's not going to go anywhere. If you're talking about your jobs, nothing is going to happen. Establishing that rapport is everything.
That reminds me of when I first moved out of California and away from the tech scene after being immersed in it for some 10-odd years. People just don't talk about their jobs! They'd much rather talk about their interests, hobbies, friends and family, ... literally anything else. Their job is just not an important part of their identity. Was quite the change in perspective and honestly and took some getting used to.
This has been my big blocker keeping me from talking to most people. I feel quite adept socially once I get going, but I can usually only get to that point through mutual interests or a solid conversation topic to kick off from.
I seem to usually psyche myself out because most starters feels too fake or unsubstantive. Compliments make sense, but could you elaborate on "break the pattern and make a joke, be sarcastic respectfully"?
I started wearing hats outdoors to keep the sun off my balding head (I've had a sunburn up there, and I don't want another one), and the hat I had around to wear was from when I went as Ash Ketchum for Halloween. Or even just looking at my hat and smiling...
Nearly everywhere I go with that hat, I'll get someone saying nice hat, or professing their love for Pokemon, or asking me if I've caught them all.
This provides an opportunity for conversation and a shared interest. I can ask them if they're into the show, the books, the card game, the video games. How did they get started? What Pokemon is their favorite? Who's the best trainer? When did they start liking Jesse and James? Do they like old stuff or new stuff (I've got the OG hat from season 1).
It takes almost no effort to wear a hat and it helps me use my social skills when I'm out and about. And keeps the sun off my face a bit, and is handy for napping at conventions. You don't have to be Ash Ketchum, any character hat will do.
Also, bonus secret. When I'm sleep deprived, I get chatty... You may or may not, but if you do, use it for practice when it happens... and if you say something embarassing, you can always blame the lack of sleep. I was just at First Robotics worlds and the setup is harsh for sleep hygiene, but I had a ton of nice conversations with random robot people. Shared interest, opportunities and sleep deprivation combined. Otoh, much fewer notices of my hat at the convention center than I expected.
- Waiting for an elevator that never comes with two strangers. What I may say: I guess we'd be camping here tonight. Do you have your tent with you?
- Embarrassing moment: I hit my head lightly to something in front of 5 people: Act funny saying Oh can someone call an ambulance.
- Someone dropping yogurt from their spoon on their shirt and locking eye to eye with me realising I've been watching the moment: I would have an empathetic look and then act with an imaginary spoon picking from my own shirt and eating it.
Basically the kind of mild jokes/acts you would do and say to close people would work on strangers as well
For example, I was in the elevator with a neighbour and they were carrying a lot of mugs. I said "that's a lot of mugs" and we ended up having a quick conversation.
In my case at least the conversation starters are all there in my head, but I'm discarding them hunting for the "perfect" one which obviously never comes and the moment passes.
> try to talk to someone > run out of things to talk about > feel awkward or dumb
is not really a bad outcome, physically speaking.
IMO ost people's anxiety about things X is not "fear of X" but rather "fear of fear" or "fear of embarrassment": they'll avoid something because it could go wrong and then... what? what if it goes wrong? nothing physically bad happens except that you're uncomfortable for a moment. But it's your subsequent reaction to the discomfort that is the actual source of the issue, not the discomfort itself. Which is why a lot of progress on anxiety can be made by focusing on the response: find ways of practicing being in the situation and being uncomfortable to a survivable degree such that you can learn to not be averse to the situation and can thus start adapting to it.
"Do you like that bag? I've been meaning to get a new one, I'm so tired of this one." -
"Now see, if we were as good looking/rich/smart as him we could have figured that out." -
"Is that thing broken again? I'm telling you, we're in the wrong business man." -
"Nothing to do with talent, it's a money and equipment problem, we're awesome at this." -
I've used each one of these in the past week with complete strangers, in neutral-to-unfamiliar surroundings, in passing, and the most hostile reaction I've gotten is "hahaha, I know right?" :)
When I still had a personal Reddit account, I would be on the dating and relationship subs and promote the idea to do something every week where you see the same people. even better do two or three such things every week. That's what I did, and I quickly went from zero local friends to dozens.
The gym is a fine place to do that but only if you're doing classes where there's an expectation that people will be socializing. I made some of my best friends in such gym classes including my current best friend. She indirectly introduced me to my fiancé because she suggested I join a running club to train.
Try me!
Though it is a social skill indeed. But there are some people who are always weird, so I don't buy into the "I can talk to anyone" claim.
For me it is easiest to talk to people who are like the dude in the big lebowski. People who rarely upset about anything. The true hipsters.
What I want is to have a laugh or an interesting intellectual conversation.
Most people don’t mind someone initiating a casual conversation in a non threatening manner. Most will enjoy it, at least sometimes.
I’m happy for the author here, especially that he was able to shrug off these awkward interactions and move on.
For me, one of the main motivations is suspicion of ulterior motives. If it really is just "hey I like your hat okay bye" that's one thing, and is generally harmless. But usually when someone approaches me they want something, either they're selling me something, or asking me to sign something. It's not that the initial comment is necessarily an issue, it's guarding against people pretending to have an innocent interaction as a foot-in-the-door technique.
World is not your amusement park, people are entitle to NOT wanting to talk to you as much as you feel entitled to talk with everyone.
If I may toss out another recommendation: Volunteering is one of the best ways I have found to meet people.
A food pantry, house of worship, the library, a community theater, a political group, an environmental service group, local writers group, homeless shelter, women's center, whatever - there are so many things to choose from.
I found several advantages to making friends this way:
1. no/low stress because you are doing them a favor showing up. Any volunteer-based organization NEEDS people. YOU are people. They NEED you. Don't be stressed because you might not know what's going on. They will be GLAD to see you.
2. Volunteer onboarding processes force other humans to be nice to you and get to know you in order to place you in a service group or provide you an assignment. The people that most organizations have doing this are outgoing and friendly. I'm generalizing, but having served with a bunch of volunteer organizations, I have found this to be the rule. I was often one of them.
3. If you are volunteering for something that you care about / believe in / are passionate for, then you INSTANTLY know that you are meeting people with something in common. This gives you both something to talk about or bond over.
Source: I met my wife and many friends volunteering in different organizations.
I was at a Gurudwara (Sikh house of Worship) yesterday for a wake and everyone who enters the cafeteria perform shevas, that is, you take a turn serving everyone else food. It was very nice to do.
Fair enough if an introvert just wants to be left alone; we should obviously never force our company on anyone (nor do the mentally healthy among us have any desire to do so, because we have empathy). However, people like that will let us know that they don't want to talk when we approach them, either directly or via body language and the nature of their replies. For many others, they're starving for social interaction, and it might make their day for you to reach out. This is what makes outreach worth it, in the end, despite the risk.
Like you alluded to, the terminally online people who post the most tend to be those with neuroticism, isolation, severe anxiety, etc. There's a famous Reddit post about this I can't seem to find - "Everyone Online Is Insane" or something.
I really think this is why the past decade+ of American culture, politics, and society has been so off-the-wall insane. The Overton Window - another overused Redditism - of society has shifted towards the opinions of the neurotic and anxious. Those are the people whose words fill the comment sections and posts that we all read, which then infuse our minds to expect these thoughts as the baseline/median opinion of society.
https://old.reddit.com/r/redscarepod/comments/1kkey4d/every_...
> Doesn't matter who you ask on this site. The incel, the rad fem, the regular liberal, the happily married person, the casanova; they will all tell you some variety to stay in your own lane and shut up. They will all use different language, but the meanings will always be the same: they live a life of constant loneliness and have found kinship with others who agree that to ever do something to counter that loneliness is beyond abhorrent behaviour.
Explains the rise of various political leaders very well.
I find it funny that even the people who comment on the "Everyone Online Is Insane" post sound obsessive or outside the norm.
I find it messes with my mental health when I read too many comments. In the real world I normally find people to be nice and kind. But then I go online and the world is totally different - I have to keep in perspective that its just a small outsized fraction.
Well, yeah. I agree with the statement that "everyone online is insane", while also recognizing that I myself am online a lot, and think and behave differently from societal norms.
I think that's part of what is needed. There's absolutely nothing wrong with thinking and behaving differently from other people. What's abnormal is when people become absorbed in the internet, to the point that they fail to recognize that people in real life, people outside their Internet echo chambers, think and behave very differently.
They disappear to you, but not to all of the other people who you share a society with who are still staring at their little boxes. And, for better or worse, you still have to live in a world with and share elections with those people too.
I agree, completely, that it's good to get offline. But the pervasive societal effects of extremely online psychology can't be solved simply by opting oneself out of the game.
https://old.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/1o87cy4/oc...
Redditors want you to cut contact with all your loved ones so you can spend more time on reddit, telling people to cut contact with their loved ones. It's like a cult.
Why should anyone entertain this theory? You’re a comment box.
Edit: Thirty years ago us online freaks would just interact with other online freaks. Because normal people had real hobbies.
But now that we are all doomscrollers: why would normal people be interested in the comment boxes of online freaks? They’ve got YouTube shorts and whatever to watch.
That things like 4Chan has had an outsized effect is a different matter. It’s all mediated through twenty layers. It’s not normal people reading 4Chan and other freaks directly.
You can find legions of people, particularly women, who do not want to be hit on unless they already find the other person attractive. Being hit on by an unattractive person may even quality for them as something akin to danger, already along the spectrum towards stalking or assault. Has nothing to do with being terminally online and has been reported since long before there was ever an internet.
> For many others, they're starving for social interaction
HN is an international forum, and while people are reporting increased loneliness in many countries, that doesn’t necessarily mean that they want attention from strangers. Where I live, a total stranger talking to you in public is annoying; it is strongly associated with foreigners who haven’t learned yet how to behave acceptably within the local culture. What people might be starving for are serious, long-term social bonds, of the kind that used to be common through large extended families, the parish church, team sports, and school friends who stay put and don’t move away. A mere friendly stranger in public could lead to such real bonds only rarely, so rarely that it’s not even worth considering.
Oftentimes, a stranger coming up to you on the street spells danger, it has nothing to do with how attractive or unattractive they are.
It's hard to explain if you've never been in a woman's shoes, but you feel like prey. A chance conversation can quickly turn into a decades-long stalking event, one never knows. Unwanted attention for women can feel really dangerous, I have often been catcalled/followed when not with my husband (which is infuriating as an adult woman), and have been followed/catcalled on the street from the moment I turned 14, which you can imagine makes strangers coming up to on the street feel loaded.
Tough luck, cupcake. Often you don’t know if she is into you til you approach. Often they are shy. If you keep overthinking this and afraid of being cringe, being filmed or being judged, then your genes will die out and your bloodline will end. But hey, at least you never made anyone awkward and lived a “safe” life. This will sit right with you at deathbed I’m sure.
Just trying to initiate a conversation with someone simply is not stalking nor assault, even if it is perceived that way. Their "perception" is mistaken in this case.
> HN is an international forum, and while people are reporting increased loneliness in many countries, that doesn’t necessarily mean that they want attention from strangers. Where I live, a total stranger talking to you in public is annoying; it is strongly associated with foreigners who haven’t learned yet how to behave acceptably within the local culture.
I don't know what country you are from, but it is highly probable that even in your culture, public conversations significantly decreased in the past 30 years. Which means that the amount of interactions was higher than it is now, even within the same culture.
> A mere friendly stranger in public could lead to such real bonds only rarely, so rarely that it’s not even worth considering.
The gym example of this article points in the opposite direction, or do you think that gyms in your culture work differently?
It’s their right to decide how they perceive being approached by a stranger. And most of society is going to empathize with them and their feeling of unsafety, not with the stranger approaching them.
> even in your culture, public conversations significantly decreased in the past 30 years
The culture in my country never really had many “public conversations” from one stranger to another. This is something that has been noted by foreign travelers for generations now, at least back to the nineteenth or eighteenth centuries. What has changed are that the substantial family and institutional bonds I mentioned earlier have declined.
> do you think that gyms in your culture work differently?
They definitely do. This has already been mentioned by various people from different countries in this thread.
So if there is a cultural pathology it takes way more than what socializing entrepeneurs seem to think.
> Fair enough if an introvert just wants to be left alone; we should obviously never force our company on anyone (nor do the mentally healthy among us have any desire to do so, because we have empathy). However, people like that will let us know that they don't want to talk when we approach them, either directly or via body language and the nature of their replies. For many others, they're starving for social interaction, and it might make their day for you to reach out. This is what makes outreach worth it, in the end, despite the risk.
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> However, people like that will let us know that they don't want to talk when we approach them, either directly or via body language and the nature of their replies. For many others, they're starving for social interaction, and it might make their day for you to reach out. This is what makes outreach worth it, in the end, despite the risk.
Nope.
Normal people—not freaks like me—in my culture will fume in private. Yes: any slight by a stranger will be relegated to complaints to your friends. Much more likely than sending any bad vibes. We’re cowards like that.
I’m reminded of some anecdote about Westerners being struck by how helpful Japanese people are. (This is from memory and may be wrong.) The context is that they are tourists. Well, apparently Japanese people have very strict social norms about being polite and helpful. This is amazing for tourists: they get all of the social upsides while not having to pay anything in return (because they are oblivious to it).
If not, I will not let you know. I will just fume, blame and judge you for some time after.
That takes less than 10 seconds to say, let's you protect your time and peace of mind, and as a bonus there's no need for fuming, blaming, and judging that the other person won't ever even know about.
Not even close.
Also it's kind of odd how nowadays everyone goes to the gym. Growing up as a late-stage millenial, gym goers were a niche subculture. Now it marketed to everyone everywhere as this integral part of modern daily life.
As opposed to what, our ancient hunter gatherer lifestyle? Going to the gym and talking to strangers at the gym isn't an "artificial replacement", it's a genuine activity lots of people do.
> "You try to form friendships with strangers because your daily routine lacks real and fulfilling interactions with other people."
How do you think people make friends? They make friends by interacting with people at shared spaces and activities.
I guess the point is that lots of people before didn't need gyms for staying fit. Gyms in certain countries used to be viewed as a place where athletes go to train, and in many places people still view gyms as that
I don't have the numbers to back this up, but in places where you don't need a car to get around, like Amsterdam, lots of people stay fit by just driving their bicycle to work, school and so on
Gardening, building things, maintenance, walking to the market etc.
I used to go to the gym but now I have a house and stuff to do it feels insane that I used my muscles to do useless work for so long.
Not that your's isn't valid, some people (like me) have a big surplus of energy that needs to go somewhere and sometimes the best available outlet is lifting weights.
I have a house and stuff, and still go to the gym at 5:30 every morning, as a supplement to my running and cycling.
I guess my cycling is an artificial substitute for riding a horse? ;)
Let's not make it a generalisation. The US and UK are big into the gym thing, not every country is. I remember seeing some data that ~25% of people in the UK (maybe a slice of population, eg 18-30yo, can't remember) were regular gym-goers against 8% in France.
GenX here and I feel the same way. To me, "The Gym" has always been a place where bodybuilders and muscle heads go. In my mind, it will always be a niche hobby like autocross racing or horseback riding. And I know that I'm wrong! Everyone and their mom seems to go to The Gym now! But, it's hard to change the culture and learnings that you grew up with.
I wonder if all the instructional content on Youtube makes training with weights and weight machines more accessible than ever. I was intimidated by weights and figured it would be boring. A guy I knew was talking about his weight training and I asked if he plans things out with friends/workout buddies and he said he learns about it on YouTube. So when I finally pushed myself to try weights, I found a video. It was a petite woman (I'm a dude) and I thought, ok she looks better than I do and this routine is a nice start. And I went from there, in my forties.
My funniest theory is that dating has been getting more competitive and strength-training is good for confidence.
You are right, but the reason it's so prevalent is also because it is better for capitalism. Going to the gym isn't just a 1-off activity, it's an entire lifestyle & it doesn't necessarily come cheap. You need a membership, specialized gear, lessons, switch your consumption habits to high protein foods ... etc
Now you look like a bit odd if you ask for directions since everyone has a smart phone now. So you have to go create artificial scenarios to socialize.
Compared to what? Even the ancient Greeks and Romans spent a significant amount of time in gymnasiums. Or are you comparing modern times to cavemen?
Compared to a life rhythm that was intrinsically social: recurring gatherings of your community (which used to mean proximity, not hobby) at a building, being invited to others' houses, a social expectation to be social and host things, recurring interaction with the same people due to a smaller circle. Contrast: today we're expected to leave a group of people to go to school, leave those people to move to a job, leave those people for hobbies and romance, and to never let those circle overlap.
Gym wise: compared to life being heavy, and relatively full of physical effort. (Even just working on a car/wood/metal/house/farm with hand tools for example). Cycling to work has done wonders to bridge this gap for me. I think also the current beauty/attraction aesthetic is hard to approach without dedicated weight training. At the top end of lean muscle mass modern life just isn't heavy enough to stimulate enough muscle growth, and in preferred proportions, unless you're willing to do tons and tons of reps which is exceedingly painful compared to banging out 5-15 of a rep range appropriate weight.
Aerobics classes have been a thing for decades. Pumping Iron came out in 1977. When I was in college (UVA, 95-99), there were several good gyms, plus they built a fancy new one about mid-way through my degree.
I suspect you just happened to be in a time/place where gym use was lower than average.
crossfit became popular as a side effect of "bootcamp" style workouts in the 2000s-2010s, like the Spartan Run, Tough Mudder, Rucking, etc.
mark rippetoe, creator of Starting Strength, was heavily involved in crossfit. between that and him franchising his Starting Strength practice, powerlifting became more widely practiced. once Instagram started building lifestyle brands around this (gymshark, alphalete, nobull, darcsport, etc.), it was a lock.
Crossfit is just the name for HIIT training that's pumped as a new branded workout. Note that already it's now Hyrox. It will be something else in a few years.
CrossFit is functional fitness, meaning the goal is to build a broad foundation of athleticism - strength, speed, agility, endurance.
So, while HIIT is prominent in the WOD (workout of the day), so are Olympic lifts, running, climbing, and mobility.
Karl Marx' coined the term "Alienation" for describing most of the negative societal/human consequences of this principle, leading to isolation of humans "from themselves" (their natural will to construct something whole meaningful, not just complete a task in a process, but also isolation between humans themselves)
Source: Karl Marx
*just paraphrasing a famous quote
Maybe it might not fail if the “favor” isn’t really a favor at all but instead something almost completely effortless like asking for the time or directions to the bathroom.
However when someone is at the gym and another stranger asks them to stop and do a favor that takes time out of their gym visit it’s just annoying, not a friendship starter.
I've personally done this twice this year (I genuinely wanted to learn, I'm not using it as a strategy) and it worked very well. I suppose culture plays a role but I'm in one of those countries where people don't usually socialize with strangers and it still works.
What I don’t enjoy is when someone ropes me into doing something for them when it becomes clear that they had other intentions for the request. It’s the ulterior motive part that can have the opposite of the intended effect.
When you realize someone asked the favor not really because they needed it but because they thought it would be an opening to get you into conversation, you start wondering what their real motive is. In this case it may be benign enough, but it’s not a great way to start a conversation
"Hi, can I ask you for a spot?" - hard to argue w/premise of ask and many people would be happy to assist you and see you achieve whatever goal you have for that lift.
"Hey man, can you spot me?" Is a pretty universal request, and frequently honored. Once you are done with your set, offer to spot them, and while you are both resting after your respective sets, start up some small talk. If small talk works, continue to bigger conversations.
That’s not what I was talking about. The part that fails is when someone asks for a favor but then it becomes apparent that they didn’t actually need the favor, they were just trying to find a way to talk to you. Like when someone requests a spot and then you come over and realize the weight they’re lifting is so light that there is no reason they needed a spot other than as a conversation starter.
If you actually need help then asking is fine.
If you don’t need help but you’re coming up with reasons to trick someone into giving you help so you can talk to them, that’s a situation with an ulterior motive. People are good at identifying ulterior motives and it doesn’t set you up for conversational success.
If someone just wants to talk, I don’t recommend playing these mind games. Just learn how to strike up conversation. The honesty will be appreciated and it won’t trigger other people’s ulterior motive detectors.
At least that's what I do. If someone I don't know at all asks me for a spot and then starts immediately hitting me with a bunch of questions/chitchat I'm suspicious. The last time this happened it turned out to be a guy who fancied himself a powerlifting coach and was looking for new clients.
: After astrophotography, before cycling
Might be the place you live; this is not my experience at all. I ask randos to spot me every week. People love to help out. Sometimes they'll even keep an eye on you in case you have another set and come offering.
If you’re just asking for advice or a legitimate assistance and then moving on then there is absolutely no problem with that because it’s honest from beginning to end.
My point is don’t go out of your way to seek favors from people because you think it’s a hack to trick them into being more friendly with you.
Just be honest.
Counterpoint: I have seen it succeed in person. Asking for a little help is a great ice breaker.
Personally I would read this as a weak, but noticeable signal of being a person who is okay with taking advantage of others. Most people are too embarrassed to ask complete strangers for actual favours.
It’s simple. If you want, approach. It’s not dangerous, you won’t get cancer. If they don’t want to talk, you will stop talking with them and talk with someone else.
"I am deeply afraid of irritating someone or being in awkward situations." - anyone who thinks like this is suffering from abused dog syndrome and unironically has lost at life.
Also, why is he talking about “friends” and “strangers”? We all know he means “women". And there is LITERALLY no problem politely engaging conversation with a strange woman at the gym even if she has earpods on. It’s not a crime, just be normal. You are forgetting that other people are shy too and often want someone to take initiative since in 2026 nobody does.
Does he? It seems like he socialised mainly with men in the documented interactions. Perhaps he really was just lonely in the general sense.
You don't get that with the high intensity training like Crossfit where you spend maybe 70% of the time working out and 30% of the time dying.
The gym is not inherently social unless you are actively spotting / alternating uses of a single machine. You either join that group of gym rats (who in my experience spend 80% of their time talking) or you put your headphones on and crack on solo.
Its a great space to meet new people, there are inherent breaks in the activity, shared problems to work on, and its a non-competitive space. Everyone just wants everyone else to send hard.
I had like 20 years of social anxiety and it’s actually very anti-climactic when you can have a normal short conversation with a stranger. Not dramatic and no one’s traumatized
- new climbers asks you for advise
- you can ask a new climber if they'd like some technique tips
- you finally top your project and someone commends you for it
- someone tops your project and you ask them for advise
- you're trying to top a boulder on a new set and are solving it with others
- you're _constantly_ in the gym so staff starts talking to you
A lot of people on their own have earbuds in too,and clearly don't want to be spoken to.
I had one time where I asked someone for some help, he then went and did the route and shrugged and said it's easy in a really condescending manner.
I generally have a hard time connecting with people like OP but found that I was able to find good climbing partners outside as opposed to in the gym.
I now do crossfit and while I know it's not for everyone, it's a decent community. I still don't talk to folks in the gym, I don't want to but I like that we're all in it together and pushing ourselves pretty hard. I feel connected in that way.
I would really not like a stranger tapping me on the shoulder in the gym. That's my "alone time". That's just me though.
I find it highly strange to assume malicious intent ("flexing"), rather than charitable one (they're just interested in this route regardless of you being on it, or your attempt made this route seem fun/interesting and made them want to try it for themselves).
People seem to assume bad intent all the time when there's obvious equally-or-more-likely charitable explanations, to the point that I wonder if it's me who's naive.
If someone jumps on something I'm struggling with, I take it as an opportunity to really pay attention to what they're doing and try to learn. They might just be way stronger, but they probably also have some better technique ideas.
For #2, I just take it as a slightly awkward attempt to reach out and socialize. Advice isn't harmful. At worst it's a mild spoiler (oh well), or just wrong (then ignore it). At best it's a great chance to learn something.
I'm awkward and it's rare for me to start a conversation, so I just take someone else talking to me as an opportunity to connect without having to make the awkward first step, and try to spend a minute or two (at least) talking with the person.
I'm lucky enough that I live in a city that has a newbie-friendly group that climbs every week and goes for dinner and board games afterwards.
I consider myself an introvert, but after going for a while, I got to figure out who are regulars, and they recognise me as a new regular too, at which point they're more open to socialising more, even outside the weekly meetups.
Even when I'm bouldering alone, I've had random people cheer for me when I'm about to send, or show me the beta for a route I'm struggling with, or ask for help with a problem. It just provides a very natural conversation starter, at which point you can pivot to other topics, provided they seem open to talking more.
> But over time, I came to accept that it’s ok if they didn’t want to talk to me. That’s just one of the things you have to expect when you do something like this.
People are complex! They have a lot going on. You almost never get someone responding with the same attention you are giving. That's just how it is.
What he is doing is developing a practice of friendliness. This won't develop close friendships - close friendships are what happen after you're successfully friendly to people who are good fit. But it will set you up to do well in semi-public spaces like the gym or your friends' party where you don't know anyone. It's an extremely good skill to practice and, unlike what I would have said at twenty, it does not reflect a lack of depth. Understanding that not everyone wants to have a deep conversation at every moment is maturity - doubly so if you can recognize it in yourself.
However, I've been working remotely for 7 years now and recently became a solo founder, and I realized I'm having a fair amount of social anxiety. At the previous two companies, I was working remotely but still had people online to chat to, and would meet in person once in a while. Now as a solo founder I've just been working from home and I noticed that when I was leaving the house to buy groceries or work out that was my "break time" and I somehow just wanted to be more alone so I always had my headphones on.
That meant that I became someone who's running away from social interaction the more I actually needed it. And that when placed in a social situation I'm suddenly anxious whereas before this all came very naturally to me (I've also spoken in public very often etc).
How I'm coping:
- Got a WeWork membership
- Leaving the house without headphones
- Striking up conversation with uber drivers, cashiers, etc
- Making an effort to go to events (even flying somewhere at my own expense to speak at a small event for the first time in years)
They work amazingly for that purpose, but I was not at all prepared for how much more social these would (re-)make me.
Listening to music helps me relax. If I could, I'd have something on at all times. (Jazz in the morning, KEXP in the afternoon, classical at night.) With these, I can talk to people and hear them crystal clearly while listening to whatever I have on. I don't need to compromise like I did (and do) while wearing AirPods (even in transparency mode). This has made me more receptive to striking up conversation.
On coworking: couldn't agree more. Being around other people has been great for my mental health, even if I'm not talking to them. I'm also the kind of person that needs work and home life to be physically separate and needs a commute to make work feel like work. Taking the bus into work is scratching that itch well.
It’s really quite dystopian and anti-human if you ask me. We’ve already lost so much shared mediums—nobody watches the same shows, reads the same media, etc. which in isolation is completely fine. But something has to be shared with other real physical humans and it has to be more than just occasional grocery store visits, run-ins at the park, etc.
I dunno quite how to articulate it very well though. It’s just remote work has a nasty side effect of making humans even more isolated from people not like themselves. It makes us all increasingly divided and “othered”. And that isn’t good for anybody.
Everybody is working more hours in a day with remote work, it would only be fair to have the friday in return.
A lot of offices don't force you to interact with each other, much less in meaningful ways.
> And if you don’t take some fairly extreme steps to counter it, you’ll be completely alone and isolated
Are "having more time to meet with friends and family" or "having time to do hobbies with other people" extreme steps?
And when I am in an office, I do interact with people, in meaningless and meaningful ways, whether I am forced to or not.
I know this does not apply to everybody, but I function best with constant low level social interaction. I should have picked a different career, but I didn't have that foresight.
I enthusiastically pointed out, "I saw that! That was amazing, great reflexes!" and added that sometimes no one sees these but I will definitely remember it. He was beaming and while I was checking out my stuff, I saw him excitedly pointing towards the aisle and me while chatting with a cashier. Where I am at, it is not the usual to throw loud and vocal compliments at strangers - so I guess he wasn't used to it.
I usually don't compliment people this enthusiastically but I guess the mood and time was right and I felt as good giving the compliment as he must have felt receiving it.
My wife and I took on that role after college. Neither of us is particularly outgoing, but we’re not cripplingly shy either.
Meeting new people is about realizing you’re not alone in feeling lonely. When we pick up on positive vibes we just ask for a phone number “can I have your phone number? You seem cool, and I’d love to ___. (Fill in the blank with one of “get a cup of coffee/beer”, “take a walk,” “invite you to a [thing I host].” It’s not significantly different from the dating scene except it’s so much lower stakes. I recommend sticking to same sex or group invites for this reason. Rejections are rare, and almost certainly don’t reflect on you.
Secondly we start things on schedules. Things that happen regularly are super low pressure ways to start friendships: “hey, we cook an elaborate dinner and then hang out and play instruments/sing/watch a movie/hang out at the beach/take a hike once a month/week/whatever, join us!”
This makes it easy to invite anyone without it feeling like a date.
I say all this knowing that none of this is _easy_, but it is a kindness. You’re not alone feeling lonely. With a little bravery you can totally be the person who makes it better for your new group of friends.
They are mainly from proximity. You see people in class, you live near them, and you're near the same age. It's the same reason in person work would generate friendships/relationships. The challenge in today's remote world is proximity now has to be intentional.
Places of worship, community spaces like libraries/clubs - sure...but I had to develop these skills years before I moved to remote work.
The downside is you get sucked into the operational drama. The guy who started the gym lives there and has developed obvious memory problems, while the business partner basically stole the business from underneath him. His now-ex-wife took all of his savings, including an insurance payout from when he was struck by a semi during a traffic accident and was forced to medically retire from being a policeman. I believe most of that money went to frequent Disney trips. The business partner is trying to drive him out by charging him rent to stay there and watch the place, changing the hours so he can't get quiet, and she also stopped paying him altogether.
We usually just commiserate on who and what we can't stand and the degradation of general gym etiquette: people screaming like they're having sex while working out, people sitting on equipment and playing with their phones, people so checked out they take the exact piece of equipment you were on, despite it being a large gym with duplicate machines for most things. These are evergreen discussion topics.
I think this advice can be refined.
The goal is to meet people with shared interests, regularly.
You may like to work out, but unless you enjoy talking and thinking about working out, the gym isn't the right place!
You may like to hike, but you may not enjoy talking and thinking about hiking. You may still find friends in the hiking group, because as you spend time together you discover shared interests. But you may also discover that you have very little in common with the people who like hiking.
That's why it's so easy to make friends in University: You spend a lot of time together AND you have a shared interest: The major you all chose!
On the other hand, if you're into ... trains... you need to find places where people go that like to talk and think about trains! That's not always easy!
"Korean girl Short I didn't know how to start a conversation with her, so I just asked if she was Korean and she said yes. Then I made her guess what kind of Asian I am. Then I rambled about being Asian in Syracuse before leaving. I initiated one more conversation but now we don't interact"
So endearing!
If you have anxiety about talking to strangers, just remember that 99% of the time when someone doesn't really want to talk, this happens. Not really that scary after all
And people might say “well if you know you didn’t do anything wrong so you shouldn’t be worried” but I’ve gotten into trouble many times for things I knew weren’t wrong but you can’t rationally argue with herd mentality when a group of people decide something is a faux pas.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/@thejoeyswoll/videos
What trouble have you gotten in for doing what exactly?
The stupid things you see on TikTok are (nearly?) all fake.
Going out and risking embarrassment is the price of admission for leaving the house. If you do say something silly, you have the opportunity to learn from it and grow a little bit.
Those TikTok videos are usually fake or bait. 99% of people do not think you’re weird or creepy for existing.
I appreciate the commenters as spice for the casserole. So that's why I upvoted it: a well-spiced casserole.
[0] Sure, plenty of us here are into social engineering.
I joined a gym partially to get fit and partially to meet people with similar fitness goals. Working out alone just feels sad. I tried to be friendly with people, would smile and say "hi," when I walked past someone. I would ask someone a non-confrontational question about their workout. In months of trying, maybe a handful of people who at least said anything back. Zero conversations. The rest either responded with a blank stare or pretended to not hear me at all. Nobody ever approached me or said hi first the whole time I was there, except sometimes the people behind the counter.
I'm socially deficient but not THAT awkward and have no problem talking to people in other situations. I'm not sure if it was the kind of gym I was at, or just the wrong time of day, or if people in the gym only want attention from those who won the genetic lottery. But I didn't have much success.
And yes, many gyms are filled with nerds. Once you get past the basics, it's very much a thinking sport.
I think that working out can be a mutual deep interest
It’s a numbers game with very low stakes to the downside and very high to the upside
That's backwards. You can't find friends with "mutual deep interests" without talking to strangers. You have to first find out somehow whether there are mutual interests in the first place.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2025/may/15/why-gym-plac...
source: I'm on the younger end of gen z and I can't drink yet
being on the older end, I can ASSURE YOU that you do not miss anything if you do not drink/cant drink right now.
Though, it took me some decades to realize this :-(
Needless to say everyone starts talking to each other after a drink or two. This bar is enormously popular. I've never seen it not be packed. It's an incredibly successful strategy for them. With all the complaints about the death of third spaces, I'm baffled that more places don't do this. I see no reason a cafe couldn't do it as well.
All this to say I think it's a great loss that younger people aren't going to bars as much. I wouldn't say they're the best way to form deep connections, but I have zero fear of ever lacking random social interactions, because I know I can just go to a reasonably busy pub in the evening, sit at the bar, and sooner or later either I'll start a conversation or someone else will. It's also a great way to get good at handling opinions that are different from yours - if you have a thin skin or live in a bubble, being subjected to drunk people from every walk of life will rectify those issues quickly lol.
But where I am from: - bars are 'a third place' where people hang regularly without getting wasted - bars serve dozens of different non-alcoholic drinks - most people in the bar are not "looking for a one night stand" but for some socializing, fun, and a chance to meet interesting people
But as I said, maybe your part of the world has bars that attract different clientele.
There are a lot of "regulars" in most who need to "get a life". I won't object to those who are visiting once in a while, but there are far more bars everywhere I've been than could exist if people "had a life", my general observation is 5-10% of the population is a regular.
Wow, ok. There is a huge space between alcoholic at the bar every night and someone who likes to have a drink with their friends on a Saturday night.
I find camaraderie is excellent through sports leagues and board game events, stuff like that.
His philosophy was simple: “It’s the law of large numbers. If you ask enough people out, and don’t fear rejection, you’re eventually going to get a yes. And along the way, you build the confidence and skill to ask better.”
Seems that the more you want something, the more you are able to sabotage yourself getting it.
Anyway, the fastest way I made friends outside of school was at a language course, where you have to speak a lot about something. You can switch partners during the course, so you can talk to other people. Another thing is sports clubs, it works out the same as the gym.
So the answer is, I guess, just going to gatherings where people learn new things with an instructor.
A couple of my best friends today I met just standing in line and striking up conversation. It's kind of wild how often people will avoid just conversing with random people in line, but when everyone is open to it, it's pretty cool... Especially if you're going to be waiting a while for a movie, concert, etc anyway.
I've had a couple panic attacks in my life... one when I was set to move to another state... I was keeping my old apartment, but the plan was to move myself then my stuff in a month or so... my car was packed and ready, my fridge was emptied and my place was about 80% packed. But every time I actually got ready to walk out the door, I'd get so nauseated and throw up... after about a day and a half, I got hungry and decided I was going to get something to eat and head out... in my mind I decided just to drive in the direction I needed then once out of the area had lunch and kept going.
A combination of growing up in a very isolated place, and being introverted resulted in me struggling to talk to strangers for my whole life.
I think the real takeaway here, for socially anxious folks, is that like every other skill, it sucks to start but if you do the reps you get better! In the last few years IVE gotten miles better at talking to strangers, mostly thanks to travelling and just forcing myslef to practice.
The thing I try to remember is: "Almost everyone is actually just like me. If a nice stranger asked me some genuine questions I'd love to chat".
The challenge for me was just not knowing what to ask.
Some of my favorite questions:
During transit/hostels: "Where were you going?", and then "why did you go there?", "what are your plans while you're here", "what was your favourite thing you did?", "Where is your home?", ask for recommendations of things to do in their town, country, the place they just visited.
These have let me meet locals, be given tours of the city, have great restaurant recommendations and heaps of great conversations.
At bars/ in line for the toilet etc: I basically always just default to "Do you live here, or are you travelling?" You can then use the questions above.
People love if they've been to your country or a place you've been and you can ask them specific stuff about their trip. Good chance nobody they know ever asked any decent questions because they hadn't also been to that place.
Once you get someone talking it's a whole other skill to deepen the relationship, but I'm still working on that one
One thing I noticed when I was doing salsa dancing is that there's a normal distribution for how you "click" with people. With salsa dancing, you change partners frequently so I may have interacted with dozens of people in one night of dancing. I noticed how most people fall in the middle of being fine to dance with and then you get a few outliers where they are either terrible to dance with or are amazing.
It looks like OP found something similar. Out of 35 encounters, he had 5-6 advance to the "prioritization" stage (~14%) and 2 (5%) ended up moving into building a relationship outside of the normal environment you usually interact at. I think that is very relatable. Most people you interact with will be fine to chat with but only a small percentage will be people that you really gel with.
This one is pretty easy. Look for the people who spend more time yapping than working out. They generally love to meet new people. The opposite case is pretty obvious too. Don't approach someone just as they are preparing to start a set or if they're going hard on a treadmill or bike. Generally, if someone is not talking to anyone and seems locked in, earbuds in, etc. probably leave them alone. But asking for a spot when they're between sets is an easy excuse to at least get their name. Nobody is going to really mind that, and you'll pick up pretty quickly whether they're talkative or not.
From my experience "connectors" make the most friends and do the most activities.
> Comes with a friend to workout. I think she's from Columbia
In case you continue talking to her: Colombians are rather particular about their country's spelling. They will usually frown when you spell it incorrectly, that is with a U instead of an O, and label you as stereotypical gringo / US American because of that. (Adding the "US" prefix here because I can already hear my Colombian friends complain that they, too, are American… :-))
> Unfortunately, most of the friends I’ve made are busy on the weekend. They’re taking trips to visit loved ones, going to the bar (I’m not that into drinking)
Is it really hard drinking that they do or just socializing? In the latter case just pick a bar with some non-alcoholic drinks you like.
Oh shoot! Thanks for letting me know. I'll correct it when I get home.
> Is it really hard drinking that they do or just socializing?
Hm I actually don't know. I kinda just assumed that it was hard drinking. I think I should give it a fair shot though. I'll see if there are any bars with non-alcoholic drinks
It's in general a very newcomer friendly hobby, which is both important as a newcomer yourself as well as for meeting new people once you are into it. It's naturally collaborative so you have to communicate, not very intense so there's a good amount of chill time, and in the cases where small-talk doesn't turn up interesting topics you can always talk about sailing itself.
False! Find a gym with open hours and just show up! I used to do this all the time with my friends, but there were always a few people there on their own. There is always someone a couple players short for their team, so just ask around ("Hey, you need anyone else on your team?") and you'll find some people to play with. Keep coming back week after week and you'll make some friends eventually.
I assume this works equally well for most team sports that can be played casually such as basketball, soccer, and others.
I think it's decent advice, but from my experience, it can take years to make friends that way. I practiced various sports my whole life in the context of sport clubs (martial arts, climbing, snowboarding, swimming...). The way it worked for me is that after months, sometimes years of chitchatting with same people over and over, I barely made any good friends from that context. I did make a bunch of "acquaintances". Definitely better than staying home, but not a silver bullet.
The engineer in me wants to believe some technological solution to finding and connecting with potentially great friends is out there, waiting to be uncovered. But of course, an engineer would say that.
I often have the same thoughts. There are many lonely people eager to make friends.
I used to live in NYC where I didn't know anyone. And I remember one evening at the coffee shop in Barnes and Noble, there were only two other people there, and we started to chat. Even though we had very different backgrounds, we started to hang out and became good friends (but lost contact since then unfortunately).
Sometimes it doesn't take much, just exchanging a few words. Forcing oneself to be a bit more social, without expecting anything, is probably a good habit.
Everybody knows a bunch of people by name, and nothing else, from various contexts. You go to matriculation, there's a bunch of people introducing themselves, too many to get to know. You work a job, there's 50 people whose name you know. You go to a party, your friends introduce you to 10 new people, and you don't have time to talk to them all.
The ones you don't talk to much, they are your friend seeds.
You move to a new town, and you know nobody, other than that one guy you never spoke to after the first week of university. Contact that guy.
In particular, the "rejection" will stop feeling awkward. I have random little one-or-two sentence exchanges with people several times per day, and usually it doesn't go beyond that, but I don't experience this as failure or rejection. I only engage further with the people who show (by words, body language, etc.) that they're genuinely interested in a conversation. For me, it's less than half.
The gym is an ok place, but not a great place, for what you're trying to do. Hiking clubs, running clubs, CrossFit gyms, rock-climbing gyms, and volunteer groups are all better options. The baseline level of socialization is very high in these places, whereas if you look around at a gym, most people have their headphones on, and are doing their own workout, so there's few natural opportunities to start a conversation.
Also, try to find people who are social and have lots of friends. If they like you they'll introduce you to their friends, which is a lot easier than starting cold. Don't be afraid to talk to women. Most of the people I know who are really good at connecting people are women.
My suggestion would be not to read social advice on public websites on the internet, especially on Reddit, because per public internet, everything is not okay/forbidden, everyone should mind their own business, choose the safest and the most inoffensive action in every possible social situation. Public places such as reddit are full of terminally online socially awkward people who are very unrepresentative of people in real life. Also, there are incentives to recommend the safest course possible because then you won't get downvoted by haters. I don't even say to take advice there with a grain of salt. I say it's probably better not to read such stuff because your brain might subconciously internalize that people think like this even though actully, in real physical world, it works differently.
It's been nice to hear 60-something retirees chat about their health, quitting alcohol, sorting out the pickleball schedule, and sometimes politics (although honestly much more rare relative to the others listed)
I love the community some folks create in the gym.
Shared interest is a main driver and frequency of interaction/seeing each other... like you become friends at school since you see each other everyday kind of thing
Shared interest, I've recently gotten into cars though I still ride the clapped out POS and someone was showing me their Porsche, sat in it, pretty cool.
But I see that person at work. In general work people don't become friends but sometimes... one of em I go over to their house, when I used to drink I'd drink with them. I do find I have to do more message initiation myself to keep things going so idk. One old friend of mine sends me reels almost everyday on instagram random dumb shit idk. Right now though I only have like 5 real friends that I talk to almost everyday. When I was younger 10s/100s but yeah that goes away as you get older. Also doesn't help I moved away to another state so lost all my IRL friends. And real friends I mean one time when I was really in a bad spot my friend loaned me 10 Gs which not trying to say money is friendship but yeah.
I get reels nonstop too
Could be anything really, race, disability, height, metallica t-shirt or whatever.
Experiment that worked for me : I now live in Buenos Aires , and missed playing ultimate frisbee.. so i posted around in various expat groups and craigslist.. "Ultimate Frisbee en Palermo! Beginners wanted - Experts welcomed" link to a youtube explainer vid.
Experiment 2: random street portraits with phone or digital handheld camera - followed up with a "who are you?" existential question (off record)
5. Always say thank you
FYI, it was probably just a regular women's weightlifting barbell. They are somewhat lighter, and have a thinner grip. Maybe she's serious about her weightlifting training.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_weightlifting#Barbell
Two related contexts that I've found to be much more friendly for this:
1. Climbing gyms, for reasons mentioned previously
2. The sauna! Actually very ideal for convos with strangers. Max overlap time is ~15 minutes, people are generally relaxed, no phones to distract and if it doesn't go well either party can always leave.
I wonder, why he did not have any friends from the years of studying. Usually, this is the place friendship forever happen :)
I am happy for him :)
Gotta find a few things you enjoy for the long-term that exposes you to people regularly, that you'd be doing anyway, and open yourself up to meeting new people and developing strong connections.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VqMF0xWzJMXWNndeY4P1...
It's particularly nice if you zoom out so you can see all the rows at once.
I hope the author doesn't mind - if you do please tell me and I will take it down!
>
> On paper, the gym seemed like the perfect opportunity to meet people since I would go there nearly every day
Yeah, the gym is the authors interest.
This amuses me because it’s the exact reverse of my anxiety. I’m pretty bad at remembering the identities of people I may have briefly interacted with a few times in a situation like class or work, so I’m afraid of the “person from class” remembering me and me not remembering them and being offended. Like, “How about that exam last week” and me being like, “uhhh do we have a class together?”
Observation: people act like this challenge is unique to the young generation, but it certainly affected me (millennial). It was a long, scary process of getting comfortable talking to people. It's still hard! And I have to re-learn it in different phases of life:
>talking to people at school
>talking to people in college
>talking to girls at bars
>getting over the idea that I don't/shouldn't talk to girls at bars anymore, post-marriage
>talking to other parents, male or female, once becoming a parent
all different lessons, all challenging. all worth the effort.
I cna't say I would imitate him. It would feel some awkward to me afterwards when you see the people training again but don't interact anymore lol
For socializing i usually go out dancing, long raves are usually good and gay guys are often very happy to talk, probably helps that I take my shirt off. Just need to keep out from the dark room from now on.
But the flipside is, I see the same gym crowd at the coffee shop next door and we always have a good chat there. Context matters.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Unzc731iCUY
The author would probably love this YT channel which is all about helping others come to the same realization as he did: https://www.youtube.com/@socialanimal
Most big cities will have rec leagues that are popular with people in their 20s. Find a league that has a team happy hour after, I live in a transient city and I've made a few friends from people who get placed on my teams.
This is much more durable, reliable, and (quite frankly) fun than the hub-and-spokes model of friendship, where you just have a bunch of 1-on-1 catchups with people who know you but not each other.
Also, it's somewhat easy to do! In this guy's story, this could be as simple as, "Hey I want to get a few of us from the gym together for dinner sometime. Would you be down?" People are usually more receptive to this than they are to a 1-on-1 invite, too.
One thing I have learned is that there are inviters and invitees for friends groups. Most people kind of just sit around and wait for things to happen. Some other people will make plans and invite people. Taking the initiative and talking to people first is the way to go, and looks like it worked out.
The book tells stories about her experience as an introvert and her journey in coming to love the interactions, using humility, humour, and science (both hers and that by other researchers).
A few points I like made by Dr. Sandstrom:
- low stakes way to create a sense of community, as well as addressing social anxiety that is more pervasive these days
- the existence of a "liking gap", where people like you more than you think
- there is value in these "weak" interactions, even if they're small
- most conversations don't go anywhere, and that's okay. Few are outright failures
- acronyms like QuICK (Question, In Common, Kindness) to think of conversation starters
- [EDIT: added] it can be easier to talk to strangers about some topics, rather than to close connections
- [EDIT: added after reading some other comments] it doesn't need to be about gaining "influence", "networking", etc.
[Note: I know the author, but it doesn't change the fact it's a good and useful (IMHO) book :)]
when I've joined a social dance community, I was almost forced to talk and stand close with strangers. It is an emotional rollercoaster; it's all happy when I've met nice people but I've felt helpless when I had to dance/interact with people that I don't like, for whatever that is.
I've also practiced some type of acrobatics/solo dance for years and it is somewhere in between.
I think some type of intimacy heatmap can be made with all these activities.
That's not really the case for volleyball
Most cities have drop-in where you just show up and form teams
I just came back from a midday walk in my neighborhood. Headphones on, walking along, when I hear someone call out — I don't quite catch what. I turn around, and there's a neighbor with a kid (not my street, so I don't know her), but she's from my community. At first I thought she was teaching the toddler — maybe 2 years old — how to say hello. So I'm just standing there, nonplussed. She repeats the greeting. I'm still confused about whether she's talking to me or demonstrating for the kid. Finally, a little louder: "I was just saying hello" — except she used the greeting from our community. It finally clicks, I laugh, and say "oh yeah, same to you."
I probably would have handled it differently if I hadn't had headphones in, or if I'd been more present, or just more socially aware from my early days. Still thinking about it and then I saw this thread.
if you see them frequently - just acknowledgement at first goes a long way before saying something. i.e the head nod | smile
2. I love this.
3. It is hard to make adult friends! I loved this post.
I made it a goal to talk to at least one woman per day on the train in NYC (hard mode) and say Hi to at least three.
I don't remember how long I kept this up for; I want to say I did this for three months, but it might have been shorter.
Like you, some people wanted nothing to do with me while others were down to chat.
While this made it easier for me to make the first move, it helped me massively at starting and keeping up conversations with anyone about nearly anything. This is probably a large reason why I'm in tech sales these days.
That being said, this didn't change my default personality. I'm still very introverted, very comfortable with hanging out by myself, have trouble not taking rejection personally (though I'm much better at this than I was back then), and, most importantly, absolutely hate talking to people at the gym, almost all of the time!
(My workouts are 90-120 minutes long on most days, which is a huge chunk of time that I'd rather spend coding, working or catching up on HN/Reddit. I immediately think of how much time I'm sacrificing whenever I'm approached at the gym and stonewall. I'm also like this on airplanes. The joys of constantly feeling behind and stressed for time!)
This post WINS Hacker News for the month!
For anyone curious it is called snatch
Not sure if that's a typo or not in Week 3...
As the next one is
> Old guy who brought his own towel
What do we have to do to discourage you from touching us?
I mean I guess I'm glad that you're trying to resolve your anxiety. Self improvement is good for some people. I just wish it weren't at the expense of others.
I started buying dishes for the shared kitchen. People kept "borrowing" them, so new guests would come, cook something, and have no fork. So I made sure there were always dishes.
The kitchen was a dreadful place. Deathly quiet. This strange tension in the air. Everyone was avoiding eye contact. There was a kind of toxic miasma about the place, and the unspoken agreement was to leave it undisturbed.
I, the heretic: I would greet people! I would greet people who were in the same space as me.
I am told this was considered normal, by our ancestors. In my case, it was partly "it's morally wrong not to greet them", and partly social anxiety around strangers. (In both cases, my autism ;)
So I solved that problem by just saying hello to everyone. I made the tension go away by saying hello.
Two weeks later I had like twelve friends. They started talking to each other, and a whole community formed in the kitchen. It was great.
I thought that was pretty cool. It also got me thinking about how, if I had been able to find a studio apartment or something, I might have ended up with zero friends instead.
In the context of the loneliness epidemic, I have to wonder if the shared kitchen is one answer. More precisely: the absence of a private one. (It sounds harsh, but the alternative... we are currently living through.)
I love this clip from the 90's TV show Northern Exposure on the same subject:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JS2N4VWIbCI
Don't talk to girls you're attracted to, though. They can tell. If they want you to talk to them they'll give you signs. But that's a whole other thing.
The bullet point list in the intro was so relatable. It brought back some still painful memories. I often wish I could go back in time and do some of those things differently. I don't know what I was afraid of, but I missed out on so many connections.
Are you only supposed to date girls you're not attracted to?
What if you never receive any "signs", as far as you can tell? Should you never talk to girls?
In high school because people thought I was a snob or something because of my social awkwardness. I love talking to people but absolutely hate initiating conversations. I love looking people in the eye when they're talking and hate looking at people as a I pass, so I usually don't even know who is walking near me. It's kind of crippling (and this is after it's gotten much better over time).
I've been a best man 6 times. A groomsman 20+ times. I'm spread really thin now that I also have kids and a wife and family commitments.
Sometimes I actually crave solitude more than anything else.
Reading this post is almost like reading about another tribe from a distant place, and what it feels like to live their lives.
Is it weird that I'm kind of envious of this guy and his life? Not enough to trade places ... because I'd miss my wife and kids and close friends ... but if I could just like be him for a few weeks and then come back to my life.
Anyway, that's the part I've tried to focus on - making at least one person I interact with everyday feel better. It doesn't have to be a major, life-changing interaction, just inject a tiny bit of positivity into someone's life. The main thing I realized was that I had to surrender the fear of being perceived as cheesy, corny, fake or manipulative. I think it's gone well; I hope I've made others feel better, if only for a moment. But honestly, I think it's helped me the most.
The problem is that it's usually extremely unlikely that you actually have something in common with a random stranger. I mean it's fine if you enjoy popular things and do typical activities AND you like having lots of casual friendships, but if you have a distinct personality or you prefer to build deeper connections, then "send to all" approach doesn't work.
I started being nicer to people and I realized I found myself taking part in conversations that I simply did not enjoy.
Systematic, efficient.
Played this game myself. And I did it when moved to the US with a limited English and lack of understanding of the local culture and traditions.
After a few years of dedicated practice, moved me from the state that author describes to the complete lack of fear talking to strangers, I can easily make nearly ever conversation warmer, deeper and more relaxed.
------
A couple more comments, based on personal experience:
[1] It works better if place where you meet is your deep comfort zone, a very familiar place
- gym, if you are going there for some time, know where each type of equipment is. - dance venue that you were going dancing for a while - art class - etc
[2] It helps a lot if you are quite proficient in the activity, expertise brings respect, and higher social status by itself, even when you do not talk to anyone.
[a] in the gym ideal technique > strength > looks / size of your muscles.
- Third class in powerlifting, based on Soviet grading system is a threshold, passing which life changes (question of months, maybe a year). You get more respect from men and curiosity from women, and you get more confident, because you got stronger: https://www.sportscategory.info/en/powerlifting - As your shoulders get broader, fat fat percentage goes down - it improves your appearance -> your confidence -> helps as well.
[b] Dance venue is a great place to meet people and address your fears / issues. Rule of the game - during the class before the social part teacher makes you switch partners => you will be forced to introduce yourself to the partner, this person cannot turn away and will need to reply, introduce themselves.
Later when social part starts - people switch partners every dance => - you start with inviting for a dance people whom you already met during the introductory class. - In 3 hours of social dancing you dance with 20+ people - As your skill grows (question of weeks-months) and dancing with you is not torture anymore, but quite the opposite - it is enjoyable => you get more relaxed, people want to dance with you => conversations start all the time - In dancing, as a man you lead, and this transfers to other activities (helped to become a lecturer teacher in University), but you also better lead the conversation. I.e. it is not a random exchange of information anymore, but you can vary it's direction and emotional component.
--- [3] Some places are better than others.
It is good to go to the gym, to get more friends, but not directly. I do not like talking to people in the gym, I suspect that other people as well.
you are recovering between sets, focussing on the audiobook, moving weights - you are always busy with something. I also heard that women do not like talking to men in the gym as they may feel "no in the best form", i.e. for her - talking to men feels comfortable, when she took shower, picked a cloths that fits her, not when she is sweaty, struggling with weights and sees other ladies in the gym who are more fit.
Places like:
- climbing gym <- very social activity where you solve same problems - trying to climb a route. You can just tell someone who struggled to climb a bouldering problem something like: "Nice!", "Good job!", "Well done", and ask for a tip.
Ot if you already climbed it - give a tip yourself. These are natural openers.
If you climb similar level of problem, you will get stack in the gym in the same spots, taking a break between tries - universe will force you to talk and socialize.
- Dance venue, as I mentioned above - Hikes - any types of group classes: scuba diving, wine tasting, art classes, etc will do the job quite well
1) pickup basketball
2) aerobics/yoga/group fitness
3) triathlons
4) work
There are plenty of cities around the world built for people to walk around, without all the noise, stress, and air pollution. Cities and people themselves aren’t noisy.
Was this a typo or … ?
But by chatting with them, the world seems a bit bigger. And even if you don't see them again often, or don't chat again, its just nice that you have some level of familiarity and learn new things you wouldn't know unless you chatted with them. And although sometimes you have that awkward uncomfortable short conversation, every once in a while, you make a new friend. That is life, I suppose.
As a male all my friendship with heterosexual males end up being frustrating and diaappointing. They can behave when you meet them with their partners but whenever you go out with alone they can't help acting like alphassholes making derogatory comments about women they see in the street. In fact even homosexual male oten can't help acting like Neanderthals too. I am not under any illusion that women behave much better when they are in groups but I have had less occasions to hear their comments so keep a more candid view.
I tend to have more interesting experience with women but I always find it skewed. I rarely interact with strangers because I don't want to be that guy they could feel is harassing or mansplaining them.
Two recent examples, funnily both happening while riding my bike: - oveetook a woman on the road riding a bike with a bent drop bar. As I glanced over and said hello I realized that handlebar was flexing at every pedal stroke and knowing the fatigue limit of aluminium I assumed it was alrady cracked and was staying in one piece only with the help of the bar tape. I wanted to warn her about the risk of riding with a handlebar that could break anytime and would have gladly offered her to fix her bike for free as we were close to home and I have some spare parts in mint state basically waiting to be used. But I was so afraid of mansplaining her that I just ler her go, hoping she would not lose her teeth in the near future. - last sunday, after a quick stop to take some pictures. When I hoped back on the bike and was progressively accelerating to my cruising speed, two women overtook me. Despite having a friendly hello, I realized later that I was just 2 meters behind and we had more or less the same cruising speed. I was afraid of making them uncomfortable following them as I realizwd one of them glanced several times over her shoulder. In hindsight I should have stopped again foe a minute but I decided to overtake and drop them to save them from that annoyance. They probably thought I was that guy trying to impress them while I was just escaping from an awkward situation.
With non strangers that I know from hobbies or work, I have had great relationships but I have always ended up losing contact. I am even more uncomfortable with those that have a partner as I feel like their is always like a question mark over wether going out with them alone would be seen as trying to date them. I have several ex colleagues that I genuinely wanted to stay in touch that I totally ignored for that very reason after switching job.
Another example is an ex colleague of mine, who was not at the time in a relationship. I had mentionned her to my partner several time as seeing her as a great friend as she had been very kind to me and offered genuine support at a time I was suffering. Since she had moved to another city we always mentionned meeting when we had a chance. Ultimately when planning a road trip with my girlfriend, we envisioned making a stop in that city and my girlfriend asked me if I wanted to message her. But then a few minutes later came THE QUESTION. How does she look? Is she pretty? I knew from that moment that it was a lost case and I just never messaged her and completely lost touch when I closed my social media accounts.
I think you are hanging out with the wrong males. They aren't all like that in my experience. The problem I have had is quite opposite... When they get married, you often barely ever see them again, and then only at dinner parties and functions. I mean good luck to them (most of the ones I know have married decent women, but they spend remarkably little time with their unmarried friends outside the workplace.)
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> Here’s the raw data.
yep, that's the problem. For making friends you have to follow the tennis mindset: don't optimize the outcome, just enjoy the rally.
Oh those bromances ...
You humble yourself, you grow as a person by practicing communication, and you get to try to lift a little heavier as you know someone is there to help you when you eventually fail a rep (which is important if you're trying to bulk or get stronger). You thank them after and maybe even give/get a fist bump. That's it. Do this often while being mindful of people and their own workouts. One day, someone will ask YOU for a spot. Oblige.
Asking for a spot is absolutely a frequent and everyday occurrence at pretty much any gym. Most people are actually pretty honored when they are asked to spot someone's PR attempt.
You don't really have to make a ton of small talk unless both parties are open to it, but you'll get to know the regulars who will eventually talk to you.