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#regex#https#complete#more#turing#nfa#regexes#engine#move#dfa

Discussion (51 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

LukaD2 days ago
This is delightfully insane! I don't think I would say it doesn't play _entirely_ terrible though ;) It's playing really bad, but it could be worse and it's already super impressive that it can even generate legal moves.
Kaliboy3 days ago
This is amazing. I'm at loss for words.

During my CS years I remember being fascinated by NFA's, as opposed to boring single universe DFA's.

For some reason I internalized that I would never see something like an NFA implemented beyond text books.

Then came Carlini.

bigdict2 days ago
But... they are equivalent?
Kaliboy2 days ago
Yeah I know, but I thought I was doing purely theoretical excercises.

And we always changed the regex NFA to an equivalent DFA and that was the implementation.

So somehow I managed to internalize the idea that an NFA is purely theoretical and can't be built.

xpon2 days ago
Modulo an exponential blowup! That’s like saying P is equivalent to NP.
tgv2 days ago
Depends on what you mean by that. You can convert every NFA into a DFA. That's a NP complete (IIRC), but running the DFA is O(n). Running the NFA without converting it is also NP complete. One isn't better than the other, but the costs vary for different expressions and usages.
froh2 days ago
The blow up is exponential for carefully crafted academical regular expressions.

im practice is a good idea to build a DFA from your regex, up front (re2) or lazily (ripgrep)

pkal2 days ago
No, because you can compute the optimal automaton (as in least number of states) that recognizes the same language: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DFA_minimization
isaisabellaabout 12 hours ago
You've mentioned that the initial version needs 30 mins for a step, but after the optimization, it decreases to seconds. I was wondering what optimization like \n could give such a huge improvement? Like what does it do?
zelphirkalt2 days ago
It would be different, if somehow all those 84688 regexes were coded by hand. Then it would be a piece of art.

It would be different, if the number of regexes was maybe below 300, and it still plays acceptably. The sheer number of regexes kind of defeats the purpose.

At that code size, a much better engine can be written, or other kind of code for an engine be generated. Regexes themselves are not really something we should strive to use more either. Maybe its intentional badness kind of makes it art?

LatencyKills2 days ago
This is a quintessential, crazy idea that used to be adored on HN. The author, obviously, didn't intend this to be a serious engine.

I wish more submissions began with, “This might be a bit wild, but I wanted to see if it could actually work.”

Timwi2 days ago
> “This might be a bit wild, but I wanted to see if it could actually work.”

That is how esoteric programming languages start.

BretonForearm2 days ago
Out of curiosity, why wouldn't it work?
LatencyKills2 days ago
Oh, I didn't mean that this specific project wouldn't work. I just wish HN were a little friendlier towards projects that are primarily thought experiments.

Some of the best things I've ever created started from, "I wonder what would happen if I tried this crazy approach..."

colonCapitalDee2 days ago
What a depressing way to view the world. Sorry this great project wasn't to your taste, but there's no reason to be a dick about it.
senfiaj2 days ago
> Maybe its intentional badness kind of makes it art?

I guess it's the whole point of such type of blog posts. Similarly, some people write complicated interactive web pages without using JS, like this https://benjaminaster.com/css-minecraft/. But if you look at the HTML / CSS code size, it's usually huge, but still requires creativity to do that because of constraints. Obviously, it's not something practical or even optimal.

latexr2 days ago
> Similarly, some people write complicated interactive web pages without using JS (…) Obviously, it's not something practical or even optimal.

There are people who navigate the web with JavaScript turned off, so those experiments do have practical applications.

There are entire projects around not using JavaScript.

https://theosoti.com/you-dont-need-js/

https://github.com/you-dont-need/You-Dont-Need-JavaScript

senfiaj2 days ago
> There are people who navigate the web with JavaScript turned off, so those experiments do have practical applications.

This is practical (and necessary) for relatively basic stuff, such as text content, navigation, basic form / input validation, and things like that. But when people write more complicated things (requiring state management, logical branches, etc), like games, 3d programs, etc, it's much more challenging (also can be sub-optimal) and requires more creativity. I mean they are more of a demo art rather than some strong necessity.

matja2 days ago
I was also thinking along the same lines. Interesting, but I'm not sure in which aspect it is an achievement, considering the loop isn't a regex.

Meanwhile, 1K ZX Chess takes fewer bytes of memory than the first four paragraphs from the post.

deterministicabout 12 hours ago
You completely missed the point of the article. It's the equivalent of compiling C++ to a Turing machine. Not practical, not optimum, but freaking amazing. Maybe think about it as an art project.
evilsnoopi33 days ago
The technical write up is worth perusing but I played a game before reading and accidentally found a winning strategy immediately. I'm not sure if this is a result of the 2-ply nature of the engine or if the mentioned deficiencies account for this but the computer did not act to prevent checkmate in 1 (without any intervening check); the game I played was (in algebraic notation): 1. e4 e5 2. kf3 kf6 3. kxe5 kxe4 4. d4 kxf2 5. Kxf2 a5 6. Qf3 b5?? 7. Qxf7 1-0
EvgeniyZh2 days ago
Yep, the scoring function is just piece value difference, so it can only detect checkmate in 0 (i.e., when king capture is available).
zelphirkalt2 days ago
Nitpick: In chess usually "N" is used to mean "knight", because "K" is already taken by "King".
FergusArgyll2 days ago
Hey! I had a very similar game
Rendello2 days ago
This reminded me of Tom7's video where he made a bunch of ridiculous engines and pitted them against each other (and against "diluted" versions of Stockfish):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpXy041BIlA

https://tom7.org/chess/

strenholme2 days ago
For people who are interested, here is the solution. In standard PGN, the solution is:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Nxe5 Nxe4 4. Qe2 Nxd2 5. Nc6+ Ne4 6. Nxd8 Kxd8 7. Qxe4 a6 8. Bg5+ Be7 9. Qxe7#

In the Stockfish notation this engine uses, White’s moves are:

1. e2e4 2. g1f3 3. f3e5 4. d1e2 5. e5c6 6. c6d8 7. e2e4 8. c1g5 9. e4e7

Here is a Lichess analysis of this game:

https://lichess.org/WnMF3LpX

(In terms of Regexes, Javascript has a very rich Turing complete Regex library; it’s an open question whether Lua 5.1’s regexes are Turing complete, but they are good enough for the text processing I do)

zzazzdsa2 days ago
I won with 1. e4 e5 2. Qh5 a6 3.Bc4 a5 4. Qxf7#. I wonder if you could implement a stronger engine in regex (stockfish classic at O(1) nodes is plenty strong already)
wavemode2 days ago
I won faster than that:

1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.Nc3 Qxd4 4.Qxd4 a6 5.Bf4 a5 6.Bxc7 a4 7.Qd8#

VladVladikoff3 days ago
This is like a fever dream.
userbinator2 days ago
Upon reading the title, this is one of those "I know that's possible, but I'd never bother to implement it" things, although this particular implementation isn't exactly what I had in mind.
deviation2 days ago
Not sure it's completely accurate. I played a standard queen's gambit accepted, took black's queen which it immediately blundered, then tried to move my queen from c5 -> e5 and the game ended immediately showing:

  *Illegal Move*
  You Lose.
  Game over.
A little disappointed, since it's of course a valid move.
Someone2 days ago
“then tried to move my queen from c5 -> e5”

Are you sure you typed “c5e5”?

It’s very picky about how you specify a move. “e2e4” is fine as a first move, for example, but auto-capitalized “E2e4” is losing immediately. Quite weird, given that there are guardrails against “e2-e4” and “E2-E4” (an alert pops up telling you how to write moves)

benchloftbrunch2 days ago
Yeesh, one illegal move attempt means you just lose? That's harsh...
neuroelectron2 days ago
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asplake2 days ago
And now you have 84,689 problems
explodes3 days ago
2025
dtj11232 days ago
Brilliant. The Chinese room thought experiment as a chess engine.
devanshp2 days ago
This is absurd. I did not realize you could do nearly this much computation in regex.
tgv2 days ago
It's not just regex. The regular expressions are used to select and perform an action. There's a loop around it with controls the stack. That has more power than the regex.
karlgkk2 days ago
It’s turing complete so you could compile almost any language to regex. You might have to build a vm for some languages, also in regex. The point is, it’s regex all the way down.
Patryk272 days ago
Regular expressions are not Turing-complete.
0xffany2 days ago
True in the CS Theory space, but most modern regex engines implement a few niceties which make their "regex" turing complete. https://blog.poisson.chat/posts/2024-06-18-turing-regex.html
benchloftbrunch2 days ago
Javascript/PCRE/etc regexes have additional features (like backreferences) that give them strictly more computational power than a regular DFA/NFA. (Still not Turing complete though without external control flow to support arbitrary iteration/recursion, like is done here)
casey21 day ago
This is an odd comment because it's a famously (imo) over known fact due to cs textbooks and how academia organizes knowledge, optimizing for pushing papers over genuine discovery.
carlsborg2 days ago
"Memory plus search is all you need"
casey22 days ago
Alternate title:

Compiling Python to a Branch-Free SIMD Virtual Machine via Extended Regular Expression String Rewriting