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#students#moderation#don#more#should#learned#simple#things#fentanyl#understand

Discussion (64 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

ckemere13 minutes ago
I found this article frustrating. In my experience, the students who participate in the “co-creation of a contract” would likely also have done their best to comply with Professor induced rules. The challenge is the 10-20% who, stressed and overworked, will be just as likely to ignore this contract as any other. I would have liked to understand how the situation is changed compared to no rules at all…
Aboutplantsabout 2 hours ago
The older I get the more I realize “moderation in everything” is the key to success and happiness. Moderation in the sense of using or consuming something to only a certain degree.

In this case, education, the answer is in the middle. It’s exploring and utilizing new tools while ensuring the base foundation of education. It’s really simple.

Apply “moderation” to nearly any facet of your life and it’s probably the correct choice. Want to consume alcohol? Moderate consumption. Enjoy TikTok or other video entertainment? Moderation. Work? Don’t destroy yourself, moderate extreme effort.

This isn’t to say don’t follow passions or pursue things to a moderate extreme, just don’t ever let it consume you.

mrtksnabout 2 hours ago
I don’t know about moderation but optimization is the mother of all evil. All extremists are actually optimization agents. Let one run for too long and you greatly loose on everything.

So I don’t think that we should meet a middle ground necessarily but wary of people that are trying to maxxx something.

atoavabout 1 hour ago
Just be wary that you might not like the middle ground between a serial killer and someone wbo insists all human life is sacred.
mrtksn24 minutes ago
There’s no middle ground, just that the serial killers and the people who insist that all human life is sacred are both destructive assuming that the sacred lifers take it to the extreme(i.e. try to force all resources and politics into saving all life whatever it takes).
seemazeabout 1 hour ago
>This isn’t to say don’t follow passions or pursue things to a moderate extreme, just don’t ever let it consume you.

Just moderate your moderation! It’s turtles all the way down

chrisweeklyabout 1 hour ago
I like the idea "everything in moderation -- including moderation" (implying it's healthy to occasionally go nuts)
marginalia_nuabout 2 hours ago
Moderation in fentanyl, too? Some habits are arguably just vices, that have few justifiable middle grounds.
_aavaa_about 2 hours ago
Are you seriously trying to compare “AI” in education to fentanyl?

The difference between AI robbing you of learning opportunities and acting as a tutor or sounding board is what question you ask.

marginalia_nuabout 2 hours ago
No I'm arguing against the false fairness in moderation in anything. It's just not correct. (Though I do sense a sort of cognitive fent fold in certain heavy AI-users, so maybe I should)
nerdsniperabout 1 hour ago
Sure. Fentanyl should neither be completely banned from the nation nor easily obtained OTC by anyone. We should keep it available for things like epidurals.

Moderation in fentanyl.

operatingthetanabout 2 hours ago
Truisms fail when you get to the edge cases. This is well known and you aren't pointing out some massive flaw in their reasoning when it comes comes to classroom AI use.
FloorEggabout 2 hours ago
They weren't responding directly to classroom AI use, they were responding to the parent comment making a general claim about moderation - which included moderation of using Tiktok. My immediate thought was "Tiktok is like meth", would you advocate for moderation of meth?

So I agree with the comment. It was appropriately placed and a valid point. Moderation is key for many things, but there are exceptions. Things that are highly addictive and corrosive may be a good category for exceptions. Things that are clearly bad (e.g. murder) are exceptions.

When someone says "life is as simple as x" and the someon else says "hold on its not that simple, what about this exception" that latter rebuttal is valid and constructive.

cl3mischabout 2 hours ago
Moderation in recreational drugs, which definitely rules out fentanyl?

But yeah, what's moderation and what's excessive is subjective.

bobsmoothabout 2 hours ago
Fentanyl is used in hospitals for pain management, so yes.
marginalia_nuabout 1 hour ago
Moderation in recreational fentanyl then?
tonyarklesabout 2 hours ago
I mean, it worked reasonably well for my father while he was as recovering from his knee replacement. Fentanyl patches that gave a precise time-released dose.
breezybottomabout 2 hours ago
This is called the golden mean fallacy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_to_moderation

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Argumen...

What I've found as I get older is that when someone says "It’s really simple," that's a good sign it isn't.

busymom0about 1 hour ago
Something can be really simple, yet very hard. Like saving money or losing fat and building muscles.
breezybottomabout 1 hour ago
I don't know what that means. Building muscle involves incredibly complicated biological processes, there's nothing "simple" about it. In the parent comment the "simple" advice is also fallacious.
Rutledgeabout 2 hours ago
Would love to see the 'contract'
causality0about 2 hours ago
After some debate, we drew a line separating mechanical churning from actual thinking. Automating repetitive tasks or literature searches was acceptable.

Was there any possibility of this not being the case? Rules which are not enforceable do not exist. If it's any part of the process you can't check, students are going to do it in the easiest way possible.

grayhatterabout 1 hour ago
My job is to teach students how to get stronger. Instead of forcing them to stack and rerack their own weights, and instead of using the existing university policy against plagiarism, or the existing social contract. I made them sign an additional set of rules where they promise to only use the magic weight lift button when stacking or reracking. I feel that this middle ground is superior: I'd rather sacrifice the subtle exercise benefits of moving relatively light weight in weird ways; that extremely important toward helping prevent injuries, instead of actually dealing with the desire of students (human nature) to get out of the effort that goes into learning.

I have no idea how accurate, or useful that analogy is, but personal intuition tells me it's really close. I also don't envy teachers. I used to teach, so I do understand the position they feel that they are required to adapt into. However, I prefer CS programs that don't encourage people to tolerate non-determinism, or otherwise unpredictable outputs. They're the source of some of the most intractable bugs, one i doubt the next generation of students will be able to troubleshoot correctly if they never learn to solve beginner level bugs without LLM assistance.

tonymetabout 3 hours ago
Instruction needs to shift to accommodate AI rather than preventing it from being used to complete assignments and tests.

Assignments and tests were always lossy, and over time more cheating crept in.

Instruction should shift to benchmarking productive output, strategic thinking and group collaboration. Similar to labs where you are tested on completing an experiment or a project with artifacts. Or an MBA program with quarterly group objectives. A major part of the group effort is dealing with collaboration and overcoming obstacles like laggards.

Hopefully people will realize how poor testing is for preparing students for the real world. the ultimate goal is preparing the students for a productive life, most commonly in commercial enterprise, but even academic pursuits require collaboration, productivity and other characteristics that were not well assessed by traditional testing and homework.

BDPWabout 3 hours ago
What would you do instead to make sure the student actually possesses the skills they are intended to have learned by the end of a program?
saghmabout 2 hours ago
I'm not sure it's possible to force someone to learn who doesn't want to. From what I can tell, the article is basically saying that giving the students some form of agency and trust is a better way to motivate them to take it seriously than being a strict top-down disciplinarian. This fits with my experience (both from when I was a student and in my interactions with younger people as an adult), and I would expect that most people who have seriously evaluated this strategy would come to the same conclusion. It's not perfect, as some students may try to take advantage of things or will still phone it in, but the same thing happens with every other way of trying to engage with them.
BDPWabout 1 hour ago
My experience has been the complete opposite, a bit of pressure goes a long way. There are many people who need to know X or Y and just dont have the maturity or innate motivation to do it properly. This comes from the experience of a Dutch school system so perhaps its different in other countries.
tonymetabout 2 hours ago
A variety of performance assessments more similar to commercial pursuits.

Group projects with tangible artifacts, including finished prototypes that meet objectives. More emphasis on group projects. If AI accelerates productive development like with software, move the objectives up the ladder in complexity, or expectations.

Peer assessments and performance reviews like employment . This also helps prepare students for adult life.

If the subject matter is merchandisable, have the students operate an enterprise. My local high school has the students operate a food cart for example, and it opens to the public one weekend a month, otherwise open to students. Students are responsible for inventory, marketing, accounting, maintenance , customer service etc.

More verbal challenges . These can be operated by AI with human supervision while being recorded, with spot checks from supervisors.

Every diagnostic has a precision / recall curve and some fall through the cracks. But you have to shift your approach when old testing no longer becomes viable. Better that than to revert to the stone age of informatics.

Aurornisabout 2 hours ago
This argument has been beaten to death before AI: Ever since calculators were able to do math, students have been wondering why they need to learn how to do all of this math manually when they could get the same answer from a calculator.

The reasons become more obvious only when you get deeper into a field where the math gets too complex to get a simple answer out of a calculator. If you never learned the basic concepts, you can’t progress to the more difficult topics because you don’t have a good understanding of the foundation.

That’s why changing goals to only look at the output doesn’t work for educating kids. Now that they can have ChatGPT answer every question they might see on a middle school or even high school exam, you could conceivably get all the way through high school graduation never having learned a single thing other than how to copy and paste between the assignment and ChatGPT.

Then what happens in the real world when that student needs to learn something new? It’s obvious: They’re going to try to put the problem into ChatGPT and then give you the result back. They don’t have any foundational tools to do anything else. They haven’t even learned how to learn because there was always an easy way out. Why would anyone hire a person who can only act as an interface to ChatGPT? They won’t. They’ll use ChatGPT themselves.

My unpopular opinion is that some times hard work, memorization, doing work manually, and yes, even testing, are necessary to build up an education and thinking foundation. I don’t believe it can all be replaced by ideas about challenging students to get results and then ignoring how they arrive at the result. I’ve worked with kids enough to know that they are more resourceful about finding lazy ways to pass a test than you could ever imagine.

FloorEggabout 2 hours ago
What is your opinion on using an LLM to provide immediate feedback/grading at scale such that students have to muster their own answers but can check them quickly, compressing the feedback loop and allowing for more iterations?

Students still have to muster their own answers, but the LLM is used to minimize the confusion or uncertainty about the quality of the answer and the time to wait for that clarity.

My understanding is decades of research long before AI has shown the benefit of timely constructive feedback on the learning process. Why aren't all educators tripping over themselves to use LLMs to maximize access to timely constructive feedback?

Avshalom3 minutes ago
Because LLMS don't provide access to timely constructive feedback.
Gooblebraiabout 2 hours ago
Great comment! I'm sharing this around my circles.
CamperBob2about 2 hours ago
Analogies with calculators have a big problem. The calculator has no intelligence of its own. A model does. (Yes, it does. You have to be either delusional or willfully ignorant to argue otherwise at this point. Take a calculator to the IMO and see how far you get.)

So there are, or at least there will be, cases where it's actually a good idea to delegate your thinking to an AI model. Students who aren't taught to acknowledge that possibility and keep it in mind are being done a disservice, just as if they were taught to treat today's limited, early-generation LLMs as a first resort.

mikgp21 minutes ago
I don’t understand the analogy you’re making, or maybe I think it’s wrong. This is the first time ive ever seen someone say you should outsource your thinking to an LLM, rather than say idea generation.

No one thinks you shouldn’t do 8 digit multiplication with a calculator, But you should understand what it’s doing under thr hood so if you say typo something you can catch when the answer is off by an order of magnitude.

But the same argument applies to AI. If you don’t understand the basics of an argument or the nature of the subject you’re investigating, you can’t tell - not even an if it’s working correctly but if it’s responding to the question you asked. If it applied the right context for your particular situation.

And I think it’s the exact same thing - whether AI is really thinking is irrelevant, students need to understand the nature of how to make arguments and validate information, before they can trust their own usage of AI.

randsorexabout 1 hour ago
I suspect it is all futile without resurrecting the old idea of being "learned" as in learn-ed.

"Learned" didn't really mean what we mean today by being well educated or smart. You can't use AI to cheat and become "learned". AI can find the books to read but you still have to read them and understand the ideas.

There was connotation of breadth as opposed to depth with being "learned".

I think we also have to forget about "the real world". Being "learned" automatically is going to inherit dealing with "the real world" because the real world is always changing and that is exactly why breadth should be the focus going forward more than the depth of the research university model.

Of course, in a society so dominated by credentialism, credentialed people are going to hate AI because it will obviously let anyone cheat at the credential they put so much time and effort into. This doesn't need to be dressed up in some "think of the children" argument.

Claude to me is the greatest thing since sliced bread that increases my "learnedness" every single day but I also am a drop out that invested basically nothing in being a credentialed person.

dyauspitrabout 2 hours ago
This is nonsensical. Without a corpus of knowledge memorized and at your fingertips it’s next to impossible to build on it. Project work isn’t going to get you there. Creativity and new ideas happen when someone is deeply immersed in a space and can make connections.
llbbddabout 3 hours ago
I'm glad to see more of this approach to modernizing education. I roll my eyes seeing people argue that we should go back to pen + paper or other weird rose-colored regressive approaches to preventing AI usage. It's part of education now, it's part of work now, and learning environments that don't acknowledge that are going to be dragged kicking and screaming into a future with empty classrooms.
bonziniabout 3 hours ago
Both things can be true at the same time. The article mention switching to shorter reports and oral discussion but other courses may not have the luxury, especially the introductory ones.
Aprecheabout 3 hours ago
> I used AI daily—how could I expect my students to avoid it entirely?

Uh, by also avoiding it entirely?

kowbellabout 2 hours ago
How do you feel about the lines preceeding that?

> He didn’t try to hide that he had used AI to generate much of his assignment. Instead, he admitted his anxiety. He felt that mastering these tools was essential for his future career, yet he had no idea how—or even whether—he was allowed to use them.

I'm empathetic to the student: I'd bet a large majority of employers/careers he's researching right now are making a lot of press noise about "the importance of AI" and how "it's a necessary part of the workplace now." Can you really expect someone in his shoes to avoid it entirely?

fantasizrabout 1 hour ago
a football coach is not required to do all the drills and that doesn't make him a hypocrite
krater23about 3 hours ago
> I used AI daily—how could I expect my students to avoid it entirely?

...because I'm that I'm writing this article be a AI himself...