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#chemistry#physics#speed#quantum#lead#electrons#more#relativistic#relativity#why

Discussion (169 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

gcanyonabout 14 hours ago
> The increased nuclear mass causes orbiting electrons to speed up to a significant fraction of the speed of light, where the rules of Einstein’s theory of relativity are important.

Fun fact: this is why mercury is liquid at room temperature. Its inner electrons move at close to 60% the speed of light, pulling in its outer electrons more tightly, making it harder for it to bond and be solid. (I am not a physicist, don't rely on my statements for your space ship design)

sigmoid10about 13 hours ago
I guess the more interesting question is why this doesn't happen for neighbouring elements in the periodic table?
Laforetabout 12 hours ago
Relativistic effects are observed with many other 6th and 7th period elements. For example, the yellow colour of gold and caesium comes from altered electron energy levels due to relativistic orbital contraction, so are the special catalytic and bonding properties of platinum.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativistic_quantum_chemistry

gweinbergabout 10 hours ago
OP claimed relativistic effects explain why mercury is liquid at room temperature. That may be part of the story, but it isn't the whole thing, since other heavy elements are not liquid at room temperature.
gus_massaabout 10 hours ago
It also has an effect, it is a small correction in the energies and bounding. Sometimes it's enough to change the color or state, sometimes it's a correction like making it 1% softer or harder and is not interesting unless you are a specialist.
beacon294about 12 hours ago
It would be the element underneath it which is synthetic. But it is interesting that all the elements in that row are soft or brittle in pre form or in some compounds.
sehuggabout 5 hours ago
And relativity describes the orbit of the quick-moving planet Mercury which shares its name with the quick-flowing element. What a world.
ameliusabout 12 hours ago
Meanwhile there are quarks inside every regular atom moving at speeds like 0.99995c ...
Jblx2about 6 hours ago
If the spatial extent of the proton is not infinite, this would imply that the charged quarks making up the proton are accelerating. Why aren't these quarks then emitting electromagnetic radiation, thus slowing down? I thought electrons were essentially standing waves around the nucleus, and thus not accelerating. Maybe there is a good youtube video explainer? Seems like there would also be an associated temperature and blackbody radiation of these quarks.
dustingetz8 minutes ago
because conservation of energy dominates
CamperBob2about 6 hours ago
Quarks don't have quantum energy states to transition between, hence they aren't subject to radiating photons due to acceleration.

Similar to why the electron in a hydrogen atom doesn't keep emitting radiation and crash into the nucleus once it reaches its ground state... there's no lower state for it to jump to.

gcanyonabout 11 hours ago
Interesting -- does that have any macroscopic/real world impact?
moelfabout 10 hours ago
well, 90%+ of the mass of a proton comes from moving stuff, rather than rest mass of the quarks.

so the real world impact is, having anything at all

gigatexalabout 9 hours ago
This is the coolest fact I’ve learned in a long time. Thank you!
kristianp1 day ago
> The increased nuclear mass causes orbiting electrons to speed up to a significant fraction of the speed of light, where the rules of Einstein’s theory of relativity are important.

> In the relativistic regime, an electron’s spin — the magnetic moment that points either up or down — and the electron’s orbit are no longer independent of each other, a state known as spin-orbit coupling.

Interesting stuff. I've never heard of sigma or pi bonds.

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aei1285

aaaronic1 day ago
Sigma and Pi bonds are typically covered in AP Chemistry, even if the “why/how” is hand waved pretty heavily. The valence cloud shapes get wild for heavier atoms and bonds between two or more atoms add even more to the mix.
nomel1 day ago
I had incredible difficulties with Chemistry, more than any other subject, because most everything was hand waved away, requiring mostly rote memorization. I could never get an intuitive understanding, partly because my profs seemingly refusing to think about things from a physics perspective. My physics prof was able to help with some of it. It was very odd.

If I would have stuck with it, would things have improved?

ajkjk1 day ago
Part of the problem is that the difficulty curve becomes, like, superexponential if you try to do the actual math. Fairly elementary atoms require the full theory of quantum mechanics to justify rigorously, and anything more complicated than that requires huge bodies of specialist knowledge on approximation schemes (I assume; I haven't studied them, but given that helium already requires approximations I'm assuming the trend continues..)

Of course, they could still do a much better job useful providing pointers into this knowledge, instead of just handwaving over it and insisting on rote memorization.

WillAdamsabout 14 hours ago
The wild thing is that the understanding of electron arrangement made a _huge_ difference in chemistry texts where overnight they went from myriad descriptions of reactions being commented as "...and this is not well understood" to quite thorough and rigorous explanations of chemical interactions.
scheme2711 day ago
At upper undergrad and grad levels, it probably would have improved a lot. The issue is that a lot of the why requires quantum mechanics to really explain and even that becomes intractable extremely quickly. Like you can probably do the analytic solutions for hydrogen atoms and electrons but once you get to helium or past that, you basically need to use a computer to do numeric calculations and even there, you are very quickly using approximations instead of solving the quantum equations directly.
SlightlyLeftPad1 day ago
I think this lines up with my experience. The way chemistry is often taught its very abstract, borderline magical.

I also had an amazing physics professor who was able to tie literally everything we learned back to real practical and observable events. There is an art to teaching these subjects. This is all undergrad level though, and it wasn’t my major.

pmarreckabout 15 hours ago
I had the same issue! I absolutely destroyed AP Physics (first person in the history of the school to get a 5 on the AP and 100 on the NYS Regents) but got a D in AP Chem one semester, my lowest grade ever!!
adastra22about 18 hours ago
“Physical chemistry” is the search term for what you’d be interested in.

General physics and chemistry take different approaches forced by the subject matter. Physics abstracts to problems over concepts with details abstracted away, but at higher levels of education you learn to apply these corrections.

Chemistry starts with practical reality and a lot of rote memorization. Only at the higher levels do you get the unifying theory. Since the unifying theory is quantum electrodynamics (in this case, relativistic QED), that makes sense.

abecedarius1 day ago
I don't know, I'm not very chemical, but fwiw: a friend and I were favorably impressed with Linus Pauling's general chemistry textbook. It tries to supply enough of the physics for the chemistry to make sense. We only studied for a few weeks before moving on, though, and it's a big fat book.
aaaronic1 day ago
Yes and no. It depends which branch of chemistry you world have chosen to go down. Physical Chemistry certainly improves a fair amount of the hand waving, but even there the underlying physics is simplified fairly often (as I understand it — I went straight Physics and dabbled in Chemistry from the other side).
asdff1 day ago
Not in undergraduate chemistry at least. Maybe chem majors had it different. Organic chemistry 1 was basically rote memorization of various reactions and catalysts and their required conditions. Exam questions would be some organic molecule start and some organic molecule end result and you'd have to draw out each and every intermediary step to get to that end result. Organic chemistry 2 was exactly the same just more reactions to memorize. Biochem was a little easier since the exams didn't ask for full pathways but still pretty much pure memorization.

I hated these sorts off classes, where if you had your notes with you, you'd ace the exam and be able to explain everything. Passing or failing depended not on understanding, but simply whether you cram all the specifics and covered edge cases all into your head at once, given the rest of your present courseload preventing you from actually digging in to the best you could. Wrong answers didn't come from not knowing how to solve something, but not remembering exactly how to solve something.

ahartmetzabout 17 hours ago
I hated chemistry in school as well for the same reason. I studied physics afterwards... Oddly, once I was looking for information about some experimental physics problem with electron orbitals and found some very well-written theoretical chemistry lecture notes :P
nickcwabout 14 hours ago
One of the disappointing realisations I got from my physics degree was that as you move into the real world with non-spherical cows you can no longer solve any of the equations.
timcobb1 day ago
Pi and sigma bonds fall out of thinking of it from a physical/symmetrical/statistical perspective. There's not too much hand waving in the modeling of atomic and molecular orbitals.
nsz651 day ago
Yes its like cooking or music. You start just by learning whats in the kitchen and on repeating steps. This creates latent or tacit knowledge that helps with the Why questions down the road.
adutyabout 15 hours ago
No.
ahahs1 day ago
that's because chemistry is heavily involved in describing the nature of how elements and molecules interact with each other. There has to be some element of understanding that nothing is quite as clear because we use experiments and their conclusions to slowly but surely eliminate some theories while keeping others until disproven.
lacunary1 day ago
this was my experience as well. "here's a trend, it's not true in these cases for reasons we won't explain." I only had two semesters and the second was much better than the first.
jona-fabout 18 hours ago
Chemistry is very empirical. While we today can explain nearly everything from physics, you still always have check how things will work in experiment, unlike in physic where you often can calculate the outcome of experiments very precisely from first principles.

To not have to resort to rote memorization you first have to have the interest. That way you accumulate the knowledge over time, then the patterns feel logical at some point. The logic isn't very precise, maybe that's where you have problems? Some molecules are similar in some molecules in this regard and other molecules in another regard. You will get a feel how stuff behaves. You certainly have a lot of chemistry knowledge you are not aware of.

For example, I'm sure you have a good intuition how things burn and you probably know the basics of why it burns. The invisible oxygen in the air is the main chemical insight to explain why stuff burns. You can explain the whole process to whatever detail you like with physics, but many chemists lack the math and physics knowledge to do much of that.

marcosdumay1 day ago
The physics that predicts chemistry is about 100 years old. Almost nothing people study up to high-school is that recent, and that modern physics tends to be really hard.
rramadassabout 16 hours ago
> If I would have stuck with it, would things have improved?

Yes.

I have a B.Sc in Chemistry (Honours) from late 1980s and it was not until the final year that things finally began to click. The main catalysts were the books "Concise Inorganic Chemistry by J.D.Lee" and "Mechanism in Organic Chemistry by Peter Sykes". Both beautifully written and try to give a framework within which to think viz. the former based on the periodic table and the latter on carbon valence bond properties. I think i need to revisit these (and other books) to justify my degree in Chemistry :-)

For background and inspiration, consult Linus Pauling's classics; The Nature of the Chemical Bond and General Chemistry - https://archive.org/search?query=creator%3A%22Pauling+Linus%...

Linus Pauling (the only scientist in history to be awarded two undivided, unshared Nobel Prizes) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linus_Pauling

whatever1about 23 hours ago
We have answers. It’s called physical chemistry. The problem is that it takes a shit ton of math
loeg1 day ago
Granted I took AP Chem 20 years ago, but I don't remember those names (sigma and pi bonds) being covered at all. (I got a 5 on the test, for what it's worth.)
compass_copium1 day ago
I also took it 20 years ago but I feel like they were (of course I also did undergrad chem 16 years ago so I may be conflating things). It's difficult to explain isomers without explaining why multiple bonds don't rotate.
timcobb1 day ago
They are not covered in AP chemistry this is just your typical "when I studied differential geometry in high school" HN comment
bilsbieabout 14 hours ago
Could electrons orbit a neutron star if we gave it a positive charge?
terminalbraidabout 14 hours ago
Not in the sense that the electrons would be orbiting "outside" the star. Neutron stars are already a conglomeration of particles, including a sizeable fraction electrons that are effectively "squeezed out" of neutrons to have equivalent fermi energies. Any additional charge you add would immediately grab an "orbiting electron" into the existing system.
nanolith1 day ago
Wait... wasn't it already understood that relativity influences electron orbits of heavy elements? I clearly remember being taught some of this in physics, in the mid-noughties.

For instance, we know that gold gets its color from relativistic effects.

https://physics.aps.org/articles/v10/s3

Diogenesian1 day ago
Seems to be the first time this was confirmed via direct experimental observation of the orbitals:

  “This idea that relativity is important in heavy elements has been around since the 1970s,” said Lai-Sheng Wang, a professor of chemistry at Brown and the study’s corresponding author. “But we show direct spectroscopic evidence that what we learned in high school about chemical bonding isn’t true in heavy elements."
fslothabout 15 hours ago
I came to the comments exactly for this ("wait I thought we 'knew' this already").

I'm so happy we have HN with likeminded people and no noise.

kergonathabout 17 hours ago
In general, yes. Spin-orbit coupling and relativistic effects in heavier elements is not new. A rather... significant elements where this was studied was uranium (and plutonium, of course). Even napkin maths show that for heavy elements, some of the electrons have relativistic velocities.

This discovery is about a (seemingly, I haven't been keeping up too much) new case of one specific bond in one specific ion. Do not read the university's breathless press release, go straight to the article. The third sentence of the editor's summary is "It’s long been clear that this model starts to fray when the atoms get heavy enough for relativity to come into play".

alkyonabout 16 hours ago
Yes, I was taught that relativity is a significant part of quantum chemistry equations in gold atoms 25 years ago. The idea is quite old and the title is misleading.
wasabi991011about 21 hours ago
The article seems to be more specific, about relativistic effects in triple bonds
ThrowawayTestr1 day ago
colechristensen1 day ago
The Dirac equation which is the equation for describing the wavelike behavior of electrons. It predicted the existence of antimatter and particle spin.

You start with the Schrödinger equation, add relativity to get the Klein-Gordon equation which is a mess because it's second order in time involving negative probabilities, if you in ways "take the square root" of it you get the Dirac equation.

Relativity has been part of the understanding of electrons since 1928.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirac_equation

alok-gabout 10 hours ago
Thanks for the insights. I am interested in learning all this stuff. Am currently going through just Schrodinger's Equation. Do you have book recommendation(s) that include insights everywhere just like what you shared? Thanks.
colechristensenabout 9 hours ago
These are books to train physicists, accessable-ish to a math heavy engineering undergraduate degree holder. The insights above are my own and extractable from this material but not necessarily stated out loud (unless I'm unconsciously plagiarizing which is entirely possible)

* David Griffiths - Introduction to Elementary Particles

* Chris Quigg - Gauge Theories of the Strong, Weak, and Electromagnetic Interactions

And the wonderful Richard Behiel's videos on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Iu74b5iCuQ

colechristensenabout 11 hours ago
To add to this, this "square root" operation done to derive the Dirac equation is where spinors i.e. electron spin i.e. the Pauli exclusion principle i.e. the reason atoms exist at all comes from. Likewise antimatter. The "second order in time" of the Klein-Gordon equation comes from adding relativity and the "fix" reducing that to first order time is the source of antimatter and spin.

So yes very much so relativistic effects are a foundational part of QM.

ferfumarma1 day ago
Yes: the article says "since the 70s"
7622361 day ago
Gold electrons at inner orbits travel at a large fraction of the speed of light, which is why gold isn't a silver color. That is really neat.
brabelabout 17 hours ago
I don’t understand how something that has no clearly defined position like an electron can have a well defined speed. I thought I had understood that at that level, particles are more like clouds, or vibrations in the quantum field, and they had no well defined position until you tried to measure it, causing its cloud to collapse to a smaller region. But if non observed electrons can have a speed that defines the color of a material, that whole understanding seems to be wrong! Where is the error? Are all atoms on a piece of gold being “observed” in the quantum sense?? Even if we just capture the spectrum? Or it’s something else??
gus_massaabout 14 hours ago
You are mostly correct.

The idea is that it has not a clearly definite position, but it has a distribution of probability to find it that looks like a "cloud" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_orbital

In a more abstract sense, has not a clearly definite speed, but it has a distribution of probability to find it in a speed graphic.

The distribution of position and speed are defined by an equation and you must add a relativistic correction to the classic version. For lighter atoms you can just ignore the correction. For heavy atom (like Bismuth in this case) the correction is important.

Informally, the correction is important only when the "average" speed is fast enough to be somewhat close to the speed of light, like 50%c.

The correction changes the energy of the expected distribution of position and speed, and the energy. When an electron jumps from an orbital to another orbital, the difference of energies is related to the color.

> Are all atoms on a piece of gold being “observed” in the quantum sense??

[Ignoring that "observer" is a very misleading word and causes a lot of confusion, but it's the standard one and we are stick with it...]

The observation is only of the energy level of the orbital electron. We know the energy, but we don't know the position or the speed. When you observe some quantum object you don't get magically all the properties, only one of them, in this case the energy. In other experiments you can get only the position, in others only the speed. [And there are a lot of weird cases and technical details.]

abecedariusabout 13 hours ago
"High speed" here can be taken in terms like this: the phase of the wave function changes rapidly with position and time. (Changing with position -> a superposition that's heavy on short wavelengths, high momentum; with time -> high frequency, high energy.)

Re "observed all the time": when gold interacts with light, the light's normally of a strength that's a small perturbation on the fields internal to the atom, which is basically why you can treat the atom/light-field system as two weakly coupled quantum systems. It's an "observation" when the light leaves a classical trace such as a current in a CCD.

(I don't expect this to leave you unmystified about QM, but hopefully a bit clearer about it.)

Sharlinabout 16 hours ago
The uncertainty principle says that the less well-defined the position, the more well-defined the velocity, and vice versa.
deadbabe1 day ago
I don’t get it, someone explain? Doesn’t everything get color from relativistic effects?
wblabout 21 hours ago
Most colors in synthetic pigments are from conjugated double bonds that don't need relativistic effects to explain: no heavy atoms here!
seanhunterabout 8 hours ago
My most recent fun fact about chemistry is that the shape of the periodic table is as a result of the symmetry group of a sphere. This was part of this great talk https://www.youtube.com/live/btlQl93qOhc?is=7v7GQ92ozW_kpQtk
de6u99erabout 15 hours ago
It's beautiful to see Einstein's work still being validated.
blaqq2about 15 hours ago
His name will still go way down in history, that is assured
Svoka1 day ago
For context: this is one more experimental confirmation of Dirac's equations (incorporating special relativity into quantum physics).

Very cool.

The paper PDF: https://bpb-us-w2.wpmucdn.com/sites.brown.edu/dist/0/196/fil...

RetroTechieabout 14 hours ago
"Bismuth could be an alternative to toxic lead in next-generation solar cells."

Is lead still used in common, mass-produced solar panels currently on the market? Wikipedia:

"Lead-based semiconductors such as lead telluride and lead selenide are used in photovoltaic cells and infrared detectors."

Wiki page for lead telluride mentions thermo-electric materials, page for lead selenide mentions IR imaging & detectors. Neither page even mentions solar panels.

Searching turns up mentions of use in flexible solar panels, which have a tiny market share. And iirc some/most of those use cadmium rather than lead compounds? (ok cadmium is equally nasty)

There's mention of lead solders used in solar panel construction. Leaded solders have been banned in EU due to its RoHS directive for a looong time, spare a few niche applications. Solar panels among those? If ever: still the case in 2026?

True: bismuth is used in some solders for similar reasons as lead.

And ofcourse there's recycling. One source mentioned ~0.1% of recycled panels by weight. Another source says overall lead content lower-level than safety limits for material on children's playgrounds.

All in all, that "toxic lead" statement reads more like outdated info. If not FUD.

tastyfreezeabout 11 hours ago
Bismuth can also be used as a collector metal for smelting precious metals instead of lead. It even cupells the same way as lead.
cyberax1 day ago
Relativity is also responsible for a lot of weird behaviors of heavy elements, such as the color of gold. Or that lead is a good material for batteries.
michaelsbradleyabout 23 hours ago
Can equivalent theoretical predictions be calculated in a Bohmian framework for the quantum aspects, or is this (potentially) an interesting case where there’s divergence and falsifiability?
fshabout 21 hours ago
Bohmian mechanics is nonrelativistic, so it has been "falsified" since its inception. It generally makes identical predictions to nonrelativistic quantum mechanics (i.e. the Schrödinger equation), but finding a relativistic version, equivalent to the Dirac equation in QM, has been difficult due to the nonlocality of the pilot wave.
westurnerabout 13 hours ago
But what about superfluids (BEC Bose-Einstein Condensates)?

Is it a different set of rules for superfluids like 3He, or should the laws of superfluids cover heavy elements, too?

Here, again, a need for a model of superfluid quantum gravity

waldrewsabout 23 hours ago
Very farsighted, after working as a patent clerk, to lay claim on such a foundational technology. Back in the day, they must've been like, oh, so Mercury blocks the sun at the wrong time, but where's the commercial value - and now every chemical company throughout the universe is about to get a bill every time they make something more complex than hydrogen gas.

Meanwhile, Galilean relativity has long gone out of patent, and people on board planes and other vehicles just move around like they were in a stationary reference frame paying no royalties.

eucryphiaabout 23 hours ago
They’re already taxed to fund pure research, it would be unfair to charge royalties for non-rivalrous products they can’t monetise.
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14about 24 hours ago
I had a couple drinks so having one of those moments. I am always so fascinated by the science and experiments done to prove what we know. I consider myself at least of average intelligence probably slightly above but the things scientists research and solve always blows me away.

My guess to the Fermi paradox is that there actually are intelligent life across the universe but just like in Star Trek they stay quiet until we reach a certain level of knowledge.

zkmonabout 23 hours ago
In general, anything that is observed to be true at a smaller scale or context can't be extended to much larger scales. That involves assumptions on logic and mathematics to be homogenous across all scales. A pure theoretical extrapolation without bounds is quite common in mathematics, such as proof by induction etc.

Also, the foundational axioms of logic themselves could be valid only at a scale that is familiar to humans. For example, the strict bounday between true and false might get blurred and things could be true and false at the same time at other scale.

red75primeabout 23 hours ago
> things could be true and false at the same time at other scale.

Being true and false at the same time is a contradiction. But yeah, there is such a thing as mathematical intuitionism that rejects the law of excluded middle (which is not "being true and false at the same time"). It's just one philosophical stance among others though.

zkmonabout 18 hours ago
It is a contradiction only because you chose to call it so, or you built a framework that interprets something as a contradiction. Logic and mathematics are built on shaky grounds on larger scale.

Similar to how Earth's tectonic plates are floating on liquid magma, while appearing to be fully solid and fixed at the surface.

worldthruwordabout 16 hours ago
Isn't superposition a contradiction for classical physics? Being partly here and there.
vatsachakabout 22 hours ago
P ^ not P => _|_

The axioms of a logic that are consistent will definitely not let a statement be true and false at the same time.

zkmonabout 18 hours ago
Those axioms do not have a basis other than observations at human scale.