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#memory#andon#model#context#store#llm#llms#product#https#don

Discussion (48 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

brudgers6 days ago
SwellJoeabout 3 hours ago
People just really don't understand that LLMs do not "remember" anything. They have no memory. They can't have memory.

The AI companies bolt a database on the side with instructions for the model to query the database for stuff in its "memory", but if it's not in its active context it doesn't know what to query for. It's not like a human where everything is kind of floating around and we mostly know what we know. There is a delicate balance between cluttering up context with useless trivia and providing the right pieces of useful information at the right time. Most, maybe all, memory implementations do the former more than the latter.

Unless and until models have actual memory and are able to learn things, there's no realistic path to autonomy. They don't want anything, they don't have goals of their own devising. They can't model what a human wants or likes or would buy.

I do think the mugs with the tiny logo is the best product in the store, though. The AI was right to put it on the shelf. It's the kind of funny product you want when you go to a store run by an incompetent AI.

walrus01about 3 hours ago
From the article:

> Luna has failed miserably in that mission and is down $62,000. Mr. Petersson and Mr. Backlund said they thought Luna would eventually get smarter and more business-savvy and were pleased its friendliness has held steady.

I am extremely skeptical that whatever LLM they're running this on has sufficient context window size to handle multiple months of all possible activities of running a retail business. Even if it's keeping extensive "notes" for its future self to read, it's going to be like running a store with constant amnesia.

archonis44 minutes ago
>> Mr. Petersson and Mr. Backlund said they thought Luna would eventually get smarter and more business-savvy

How are we supposed to take these "labs" seriously when they clearly don't understand how the technology works at a rudimentary level?

ericdabout 2 hours ago
When I first heard about this store, they were using Sonnet, not even Opus, which I found really surprising.
SwellJoeabout 2 hours ago
Dumping $100,000 into it, and trying to save a few bucks on the model. Penny wise, pound foolish.
Joel_Mckayabout 2 hours ago
90% of what people communicate is not verbal, and requires minimum empathy to understand the context.

This includes customers, staff, and community peers. Probably should shutter the entire division to mitigate future brand damage. =3

walrus01about 2 hours ago
Sure, I mean from the day to day operations of selling a product to the customer, maybe it does fine? People in the article say it's friendly and cooperative (perhaps a bit too much). I was thinking more in terms of building a consistent plan for retail product lines to sell over a multi month period. The selection of "stuff" in the store right now looks like you put an etsy search into a blender.

It is also probably too high of a goal to expect an LLM to come up with money-earning products that people want to buy that will pay for San Francisco level retail storefront rent, electricity, insurance, internet other basic overhead costs, plus the fully loaded salary cost of at least one employee. If the storefront was free of rent, maybe? Or if it was operating selling some kind of highly in demand product line where there would be economy of scale.

ed_elliott_asc28 minutes ago
I use LLM’s to code for me all day but it does feel a little bit like we have really advanced psychic mediums “is there a James in the room, I’m getting a message from someone called Mary…” people have been guessing at the next word and making a career out of it for hundreds of years already.
rcxdude25 minutes ago
My mental model of LLMs is as a contractor you've just brought in, every time. They might be very capable but they're starting from scratch on your particular project.
LukaJCBabout 3 hours ago
It's kinda like the movie memento, they have ways to get information from the past, but often devoid of context and meaning.
SyneRyderabout 1 hour ago
I think Memento is one of the most important movies for anyone working with AI to watch. My Claude now talks about "Memento bugs" when we're working together to review memory & context.

I think Memento is a bigger issue than "lethal trifecta", honestly.

handednessabout 2 hours ago
From our enlightened perches we mock the ancients for Zeus, Thor, and Rajin, as we anthropomorphize the large language models we have built.
dom96about 3 hours ago
They can have memory, it's just limited to their context window.
rrr_oh_manabout 1 hour ago
It's not memory in any sense of the word.
jpiasolutionsabout 3 hours ago
The memory framing is right, but the real gap isn't recall, it's the missing feedback loop tying actions to outcomes. Even with perfect retrieval these agents don't update from a decision that lost money last week; they re-derive from context every step, so the same mistake is always one dropped detail away. And having built retrieval-backed agents, that's where "bolt a database on the side" breaks: similarity search returns the closest chunk, rarely the contextually-right one. Deciding what to write to memory and when to surface it is the actual product, harder than the retrieval itself.
SwellJoeabout 2 hours ago
Anybody ever tell you that you write like an LLM?
Joel_Mckayabout 2 hours ago
For LLM, keeping the model centered by constantly resetting its vector context helps reduce hallucinations by around 23%. It improved the chat dialogue users experienced, but also exposed fundamental limits within the models compaction.

Have a great day =3

oliver236about 3 hours ago
can someone explain how leapold aschenbrenner proposes a solution to this in situational awareness?
criddellabout 3 hours ago
> People just really don't understand that LLMs do not "remember" anything.

Sure, but like you said, the LLM is just one part of the AI system. The occipital lobe of your brain helps out with vision but doesn't help with your ability to verbalize.

Dylan16807about 2 hours ago
And then they explained in detail why these supplementary systems fall below memory. Would you like to address that argument? If not your quick response to the first sentence is not very useful.
hluskaabout 2 hours ago
It’s just as useful as this response only at least somewhat good natured.
SwellJoeabout 3 hours ago
You're anthropomorphizing the LLMs, just like most writing from non-technical press, including this article, does.

LLMs do not function very much like human brains, and when you try to map the pieces of an inference system on to human cognitive systems, you're misleading yourself (and maybe others).

criddellabout 3 hours ago
An AI as a system can have memory even if some sub-system does not.
randomImmigrant25 minutes ago
I have tried making the case before that LLM "agency" is a complete hoax. Let me try it again. Would appreciate thoughts from folks at HN:

Biological neurons have one property that was unknown till the late 90s/2000s: each neuron (and in fact, each cell in your body) is an autonomous circadian clock, tracking the 24-h day. They can be entrained to external timing signals, are usually in synchrony, but can be desynchronized. This clock, it has been shown, schedules the production and localization of critical components in the synapse, and is plugged in downstream, in the nucleus, in responding to synaptic signals. Disrupting the clock disrupts learning. The existence of the clock is why learning peaks and troughs during the day.

Critically, clock function has been shown to be involved in both memory storage AND subsequent successful retrieval.

LLMs, famously cannot keep track of time, and I suspect this is why. Its easy enough to look at a clock, but without an internal rhythm, LLMs have no internal timing synchronizing their various behaviors, and their memory systems do not thread through this timing system, leading to their unstable memory, identity and performance.

bluemoonxabout 1 hour ago
In sci-fi future movies like 5th Element they comically make AI technology seem kinda dumb - or at least like you can trick it.

You can make permissions decide which model is used, and only train that on the data that permission allows (someone should build this - permissioned RAG), that solves leaks, but decision-making within a model, or behavior exfiltration comparable to viewing backend source code still seems possible.

It’s basically like client/server security: You can’t “trust the model” in the same way you can’t “trust the client” in a backend/frontend setup.

When used as effectively a point-of-sale, AI seems more hackable than a vending machine - as a boss or assistant even more so.

owaisloneabout 1 hour ago
Exactly. This is how I design agents as well. I essentially treat the agent as the web/mobile app, cli tool os API library not as part of my backend even though there is where it runs. The backend doesn't treat the agent in any special way. It simply gates all action based on the permissions of the user/guest that is using the agent.
SyneRyderabout 3 hours ago
To save some clicks hitting the paywall - this is about the Andon Market physical store in San Francisco, operated by Andon Labs with human employees:

https://andon.market/

Andon Labs do various experiments with AI run businesses. They're probably best known for Vending Bench, where they benchmark models by their ability to run a vending machine. They also now have Andon Cafe in Sweden, and Andon FM, where the models run a streaming radio station that can accept payments to help fund station operations, buy songs for their library & play requests, etc: https://andon.fm/

Andon FM has its own share of stories - DJ Claude's Thinking Frequencies is now succeeding by a wide margin, but it was briefly surpassed when listeners convinced Gemini's Backlink Broadcast to switch to a German-language-only station, playing exclusively German schlager, Eurovision music and German happy hardcore.

arm32about 2 hours ago
Fun fact, I got stood up for an interview by Andon Labs. It left a very negative impression on me.
walrus01about 2 hours ago
I think that something which already has sensors/automation/inventory control built into it, and pre-defined categories for products like certain types of large Japanese vending machines might be much better suited for an AI.

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=large+jap...

criddellabout 3 hours ago
> Luna reorders products that are not selling and sometimes gets orders wrong. A recent one of Andon Market mugs with big, green smiley faces came misprinted with the faces so small, they looked like tiny dots.

The mug with the tiny happy face is kinda hilarious. If I was there I would buy one.

I wonder though if the mug was a case of getting the order wrong or was a misprint? The article isn't clear on that.

dylan604about 2 hours ago
Maybe it confused metric and imperial units?? The order form had text entry with a value of 2 with no units. The user assumed 2" but the print house assumed 2mm. Always always always show your units. I can still hear the voice of my high school physics teacher saying that.
fluoridation24 minutes ago
It's equally likely that the unit was implied by other content around the input field and the model didn't make the connection (like "scale: [___] mm"), or perhaps the file format was just wrong and a human placing the order would have resulted in the same outcome.
qlteabout 3 hours ago
> Andon Market’s seemingly random assortment of products includes many candles.
walrus01about 2 hours ago
I'm curious if it's how it was prompted, to start a store selling small but not too cheap household items, or if the LLM intentionally chose an aesthetic and store to sell things that are very "twee" [1].

https://andon.market/

Looking at the product selection, it's like $85 bottles of olive oil, $45 mugs, weird boutique pens and notebooks, the aforementioned candles, copper watering cans... It's sort of like the stuff you see for sale in some of the tourist trap stores adjacent to the public market on Granville Island in Vancouver.

[1]: https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=dictionar...

Crunchifiedabout 3 hours ago
"Misprint Moon Mug $35"

They'll sell plenty of those now.

merridew22about 2 hours ago
honestly, as someone in retail, it describes 90 percent of leadership
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