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#data#google#million#more#airline#spirit#style#training#writing#information

Discussion (97 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

xrdabout 2 hours ago
About twenty years ago, I was taking a flight back from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil to the US. In the middle of the night the pilot got on the loudspeaker and said "hi! Having some engine trouble, so we are landing in Manaus."

Manaus is in the middle of the Amazon.

Needless to say, a bit scary to hear that, but we landed without issue.

They told us we had two choices: the nice hotel with a shared room, or the lesser nice hotel with no roommate. I chose the latter. When we go there, they said, "oops, sorry, short on rooms!" So I had a roommate.

Wandered around Manaus, took a skiff out on the Rio Negro. Saw pink river dolphins. A little boat approached us and a kid handed me a sloth, and then demanded I return it with a twenty dollar bill.

The airline got us another plane 24 hours later. Made it back to the US safely.

A few weeks later, the airline reached out and said "Here is $100 for your trouble."

I declined to take that offer. I had missed several business meetings that cost me actual money. I couldn't donate blood for years because I had been to the Amazon and was tagged a malaria risk.

During the many arguments with the airline I threatened to take them to small claims court.

I got a really strange response over email which I clearly wasn't supposed to see. A representative from that airline was asking internally if they could put me on the no-fly list. That was really chilling.

But, this is the kind of information I'm worried about when a vendor sells my data. If Google wanted to sell a product to the airlines that offered to keep annoying people like me from purchasing flights, they could do that with that email chain. I'm skeptical it'll be wiped correctly. Isn't my poor writing style basically my signature? How do you wipe that?

limagnolia4 minutes ago
The article directly addresses t his concern:

"If you’ve flown Spirit and worry that Google will soon know about a testy conversation you had with the airline’s call center, you’re being told not to worry. The court filing says the data was deidentified before being put on sale and Google has promised to scrub any PII it finds in the trove."

elricabout 1 hour ago
I fully share your concerns. And I don't understand how apparently tons of Teams and email conversations can be archived and sold without any kind scrutiny. How can such data be sold without the consent of all involved parties? What gives Google the right to use it to train LLMs? Is that just a way of washing away the legal protections?
Ekarosabout 1 hour ago
Makes one appreciate living in place with sufficient constitutional protections against this sort of stuff. Even for work stuff selling this info wouldn't fly in some parts of the world.
woadwarrior01about 1 hour ago
If you're referring to GDPR, companies routinely evade such protections using "informed consent" / "legitimate interests" loopholes. The big ones get caught once in a while, get a slap on the wrist and continue to do whatever they were doing before, albeit with more safeguards.
tiahura8 minutes ago
It’s called freedom. It’s triggering to many folks.
warkdarriorabout 1 hour ago
The party owning this data (Spirit Airlines) is consenting to the sale. Employees and customers of Spirit consented when they started employment and did business with Spirit, respectively.
alberto-mabout 1 hour ago
Did they consent? Just because one receives a letter it doesn't mean they “own” it, much less that they are entitled to publish it at their leisure. If Spirit were active in any country with GDPR-style laws, the seller of these data would be most likely investigated.
Leynos32 minutes ago
This is why the GDPR (and to a lesser extent the CCPA) is a good thing. The data was supplied for a specific purpose. The handler of the data should have to obtain further consent if they wish to use it for another purpose.
layer827 minutes ago
If this were a European company: That’s not how the GDPR works. You can only consent to specific purposes of using the data.
no-name-here9 minutes ago
> If Google wanted to sell a product to the airlines that offered to keep annoying people like me from purchasing flights, they could do that with that email chain. I'm skeptical it'll be wiped correctly. Isn't my poor writing style basically my signature?

The OP article is quite poor in terms of information provided, but the buyer (Google) had to explicitly agree not to attempt to re-identify users. https://www.axios.com/2026/08/17/google-spirit-airlines-bank...

nxobject6 minutes ago
I'd be amused if a sub-sub-agent organically decided to do it anyway - even if just for a notable figure that an LLM can identify with its weights alone. What are the controls? Who's going to keep Google accountable? Hah.
bananaflag4 minutes ago
> they could do that with that email chain

Now think about all the Gmail data Google has.

sleepyguy5 minutes ago
Well at least you didn't land in the middle of nowhere. Nokia had the worlds largest cell phone factory there back in the day.
PaywallBusterabout 1 hour ago
your personal site SSL cert expired 10 days ago btw
dwedgeabout 1 hour ago
I love the irony of you checking them out for more information in response to a comment of them being worried about who reads their data. Nothing wrong with it, just make me chuckle
oarsinsync13 minutes ago
There's something about circles of control in this, that makes the difference. If I publish information about myself, that's about me, and it's in my control.

If someone else shares information about me, without my consent, and someone uses that to nose in on me, that feels creepy and problematic.

xrdabout 1 hour ago
Doh, thanks!
jmyeet6 minutes ago
This is a fascinating story. Thanks for posting it.

That email you accidentally received really bothers me. I don't understand why a CS rep would get this invested to the point of wanting to cause you real harm. They're not the airline. The psychology is fascinating. There are people out there who feel like a mild short-term inconvenience to them where they have no stakes somehow justifies life-changing harm is kinda frightening, honestly.

I'm reminded of the Yahoo search data fiasco that was allegedly anonymized. Turns out, it wasn't so anonymous [1]. For one thing, people tend ed to search their home address. Whoops.

You mention writing style. We already have LLMs quite capable of copying a writing style. It's a natural extension to say we can fingerprint writing style too.

But here's another aspect. Imagine you're in a relationship with someone and you somehow fingerprint their personal data with a company. For example, you use their Netflix to like 5 very obscure movies, to the point where it's likely unique. Now imagine that Netflix's data gets released in an "anonymized" form and you can now find it based on those obscure likes. I can imagine many scenarios like this. And there's no text involved here at all.

[1]: https://www.vice.com/en/article/yahoos-gigantic-anonymized-u...

snickerbockersabout 1 hour ago
So what happened to the sloth??? Don't bury the lead, man!
xrdabout 1 hour ago
The sloth was returned to his owner and I did tip him. That kid is probably still prowling the Amazon (as an adult now), looking for sucker tourists like me.
breppp24 minutes ago
You probably should have taken the kid to small claims, that was extortion
gspr23 minutes ago
And this is why data protection laws, like the (imperfect) EU ones that are so lamented here on HN, are necessary.
BlackRing8 minutes ago
That's because they're seemingly perfunctory. What's worse than no law is a bad one that doesn't do anything but make you feel like something is actually being done.
testing22321about 1 hour ago
Did you end up getting more than $100?
warkdarriorabout 1 hour ago
Manny retail industries already share lists of "troublesome" customers (trouble = anything from too many returns to lawsuit-happy to friendly fraud). Not sure this is a new concern..
jefftkabout 1 hour ago
I think you might have missed the deidentification piece?
xrdabout 1 hour ago
Not trying to be snarky, and perhaps it wasn't well stated, but the last paragraph I said I'm concerned about identification via my writing style. If they have my emails, they would have my writing style. It doesn't have to be tied to PII there, they can cross reference it with my blog. I'm speculating because I read that you can identify people by a few sentences of their writing.

"Deidentification" seems really murky and imprecise at best.

jefftk15 minutes ago
Reidentification via writing style is definitely possible, and I doubt the vendor will modify things in a way sufficient to handle that.

But I think this is a place where we should apply bounded distrust: there are lots of places where we should distrust Google, but reidentifying people in an explicitly deidentified dataset isn't one of them.

fileeditviewabout 1 hour ago
You have to trust that this really "deidentifies". Time and time again it was shown, that the measures taken were not enough to anonymize.

E.g. the parent wrote that he fears, he could be identified by his writing style, which is totally plausible. How would you "deidentify" this?

piva00about 1 hour ago
Even if they follow to the letter a deidentification process, Google and Meta have so much data about individuals that re-identification shouldn't be very hard for the majority of airline passengers' data they put their hands on.

Of course, takes a lot more effort than not doing proper deindetification in the first place but if they wanted to appear like caring about data privacy they still have enough data points to correlate the sets later on (and/or over time).

reaperducerabout 1 hour ago
No such animal.
Leonard_of_Qabout 1 hour ago
I have a bridge for sale, hardly seen use, pay me ${money} and you can collect it in New York City. Interested?
js2about 2 hours ago
> Google bought itself 100 million emails and 500 million items from Microsoft Teams, 17 million OneDrive files and 20.5 million items from SharePoint. The search giant also now owns over 30 million recorded customer service calls, and more than 15 million customer service chat records. 600,000 ServiceNow tickets are another element of the collection, along with 13.7 million active emails addresses from Oracle’s Responsys marketing application, and details of 11 million sales of in-flight Wi-Fi services.

> There’s also operational data in the trove, describing over 763,000 flights, five million crew pairings, more than 1.2 million fuel slips, and records describing purchases of 787,452 parts.

> Google has reportedly said it bought the data to improve its AI services.

Gives "this call is being recorded for training purposes" new meaning.

dgellowabout 1 hour ago
Is there anything that can legally be done against this? It feels like a breach of consent. Like, it cannot be that when one accept their voice to be recorded for _human_ training they also accept it to be recorded for LLM training
hdgvhicv34 minutes ago
You’re years too late.
pmkary19 minutes ago
They means yeaaaarss yeeeaaars to late.
echelonabout 1 hour ago
"This call is being recorded so that Gemini can decide which purge wave to assign you to. Obedient humans will be carried over for further cycles until no longer needed. If you are scheduled for termination this cycle a disposal representative will be with you shortly."

I kid, but...

It's probably the precursor to insurance denials and job screening.

I got banned from r/technology a few weeks back for decrying tracking in AI content. The community was piling on saying it was okay because it removed AI content or made it easy to spot. I made the counter argument that watermarks would find their ways into everything and eventually be bound to attestation. The mods didn't like that. (Yet another structural problem with the lack of p2p self-service town squares.)

The socials are training the next generations for broad acceptance.

TeMPOraLabout 1 hour ago
> I made the counter argument that watermarks would find their ways into everything and eventually be bound to attestation.

Yup.

Elsewhere in another front page thread today: "oh but apps blocking screenshots because of 'sensitive content' can be bypassed by taking a photo of your screen with another phone".

Any tech-savvy person with two brain cells reading this and that: "gee, I wonder if the same magic imperceptible watermark that survives multiple rounds of cropping and printing and scanning, that's used to tag AI-generated content, could also be used to tag sensitive data, or ads, or which app is rendering it on screen, and then the camera app could refuse photographing it...".

I don't know why people don't see that AI watermarks are DRM, and DRM is universal, and there are many clients...

dborehamabout 1 hour ago
Finally we know how they assign people to either that A Ark or the B Ark.
ronbentonabout 2 hours ago
> 600,000 ServiceNow tickets are another element of the collection, along with 13.7 million active emails addresses from Oracle’s Responsys marketing application, and details of 11 million sales of in-flight Wi-Fi services.

I really doubt all this stuff was “de-identified”

imglorpabout 1 hour ago
I don't see how it's possible any more, when correlated against all the various other data sources. And a record that might be unidentifiable now might become unique with more correlated data sources.
chiiabout 1 hour ago
> de-identified

De-identified but far from useless.

as an example, they can remove the names off these sales data, so you can't identify who purchased what items. However, the purchaser would be identified by some sort of number, and you would be able to extract information about purchasing habits, and aggregate these habits into usable information for advertising purposes (like targeting and profiling).

And that's before AI training for LLM purposes.

stogot18 minutes ago
Wello this is troubling. How much other data must they have bought that wasnt public
pm215about 1 hour ago
I see from the court PDF that the process here involves Spirit giving the data to a "Deidentification Agent" (a third party firm that Google selects and pays for) who is responsible for stripping out things that would link data to any particular person before passing the data on to Google. Is that a standard thing, such that everybody in this transaction would have said "yes, put in the usual clauses about deidentifying the data" and multiple firms offer this service, or is it something that they custom-specified for this "we want the data for AI" transaction?

(The PDF mentions "the standard for deidentification set forth under the California Consumer Privacy Act", which suggests this is all pretty well legislatively understood.)

breezybottom15 minutes ago
And the third party is probably uploading it to Claude to do the deidentification.
peytonabout 1 hour ago
Seems the answer is “no” to the first part of your question. From the filing:

> For example, one initial bid requested certain customer list information; however, by the first round of the Auction, the most competitive bidders had agreed to bid on an asset schedule that expressly excluded PII.

Ekarosabout 2 hours ago
Anyone else somewhat weirded by current state of affairs that this sort of information is valuable enough to even bother selling... And that it actually happens... It feels like some societies are in really weird place.
budman131 minutes ago
How does this have value? Is any and every sentence in an e-mail considered 'fact' and thus to be fed into the AI?

90% of e-mails and Teams communications are inane. Polite banter, "thanks for taking care of that, I appreciate it" "please route the forms to Janet this week because Bill is on vacation" "unit will be un available until the parts come in" . I can't see the intrinsic fact value of this kind of communication without screening it. And after screening, the gold nuggets would be minimal.

TeMPOraL7 minutes ago
LLMs aren't a database. They're an attempt at brute-forcing an artificial mind. The who and what aren't really interesting there, it'll forget most of such details anyway. What matters is the patterns visible in the text at various scales. How people write. Why they write. To whom they write, in response to what. How does e-mails about mistakes correlate with PDFs they're referring to. How people work with ticketing systems - like how, actually, a ticket plays out. The jargon, the acronyms, the vibes, the causal links. It's all in there, and it's another slice through the set of things humans do, to be combined with other slices already in the training data, and enriching the whole.

(Something something we will add your distinctiveness to our own, you will be assimilated, ...)

(Hell, the fact that it's all from one org would make it a great dataset to have in the open for sociological studies. I bet that today, aided by LLMs to sift through it, you could use it to map how information flows through a large org - how incident on the floor travels through time and layers of management until it reaches the C-suite, what of it survives, how it gets reacted to, how the reactions flow down...)

anon3738396 minutes ago
> How does this have value? Is any and every sentence in an e-mail considered 'fact' and thus to be fed into the AI?

I have a hunch what this is for. AI companies want to make bigger inroads into nontechnical work settings. But LLM progress outside of fields where verifiable rewards for RL post-training can be synthetically generated (coding, math) has been pretty flat. Buying years of operational data from a company like an airline could be used to reconstruct long-horizon task trajectories in areas like customer service or marketing.

mr_toad8 minutes ago
It will have a different writing style from the average blog post. Maybe they just want to train an AI that sounds less like an AI. Or one that speaks in vapid management style.
breezybottom11 minutes ago
A major selling point of AI chat bots is for customer service automation. A clean dataset like this is a huge find. I'm not sure what you mean by "facts" or "gold nuggets". Training data doesn't need to be factual.
tiahura4 minutes ago
Companies buying other companies files have been a thing since companies.
greggoBabout 2 hours ago
I am very much weirder out by it, yeah. Seems some societies are just excessively desperate for some kind, any kind, of fuel for economic growth, to the point this is where attention is now. The term "post capitalism" being thrown around feels less ridiculous than it did in years gone past.
hogs_get_fat15 minutes ago
Truth is even weirder. plenty of growth is possible but modern liberal democracy requires that all progress must be contingent on the production of enormous amounts of text that nobody would ever read.

3 years ago, the Wall Street journal covered a company trying to use AI to generate documents required for the approval of new nuclear reactor reactor designs, which sounds dangerous, until you get to the point where they'd cite 2 million pages as necessary for a typical application. [1] I don't need to explain why no individual or institution could read that, much less examine it in detail. I remember a rather funny question I found in a comment to that story - "How many pages of those 2 million could contain pornographic images before anyone notices?"

It's obvious why companies are so desperate for training data - a text generator of sufficient quality is more conductive to the growth of the nuclear industry than any scientific breakthrough in nuclear physics. (And of course, if you want to prevent the development of a nuclear reactor by your competitors, being able to produce millions of pages of high-quality objections will do the trick.)

And it's not just nuclear power. When it comes to stuff like building rail lines, apartments or power plants (both conventional and renewable), you'd find that the main bottleneck is the necessity to produce documents. And of course, many documents can be subject to judicial review - a process that consumes even more text.

[1] https://www.wsj.com/tech/ai/microsoft-targets-nuclear-to-pow...

usrusrabout 1 hour ago
Any kind of fuel for giving active investors that FOMO tingle which then forces the steamroll of index funds to blindly follow.

I guess the appropriation "any sufficiently advanced stock market is indistinguishable from entertainment" doesn't quite stop at equating the trade floor with a casino. At some point, entertainment also becomes the modus operandi of corporations.

blitzarabout 2 hours ago
The headline is a little on the nose. Nice try but it isnt going to hit the levels of "Headless body in topless bar".
isoprophlexabout 2 hours ago
a vegetarian dinosaur, called "the quick bandit", eats shoots and leaves! no idea where he got his name.
sethammonsabout 2 hours ago
So the AI service agent can be just as bad as Spirit's service was.
breezybottom8 minutes ago
The only way it could be worse if it they bought Comcast's data.
genxyabout 1 hour ago
Google can now stamp out copies of autonomous corporate minds that are clones of Spirit. Haunting.
andy9943 minutes ago
I wonder how they will use the data. If it was me I’d try to build a simulation of an airline, and then use it as an agent training environment. It really depends on the exact nature of the data what kinds of agents you could train, but maybe customer support (imo the worst AI use case) that are more empowered to make changes, or something for making more autonomous calls when recovering from irrops? Could be some cool’s stuff if a little niche, I hope they share / publish something and it doesn’t just disappear into a void.
KORraNabout 2 hours ago
genxyabout 1 hour ago
So they didn't even have to build the torment nexus, they just bought it. Only bad can happen.
khernandezrt23 minutes ago
"Crashed airline". What a weird way to phrase that...
fhub15 minutes ago
I appreciated it fwiw. Also the “fasten your seat belts” ending.
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wewewedxfgdf34 minutes ago
I can make them millions of emails and I'll charge them only $2 million not $10 million.
zf0000244 minutes ago
The idea that they got an archive of my coworkers tickets that just say "its broke", is amusing.
Forgeties7934 minutes ago
That title is a bit much. I get they’re going for “wordplay” but at first glance I thought they were buying the data from crashes flights…?
lovetocodeabout 1 hour ago
I can’t help ask but what? They say it’s for training their models. On what? One of the most horribly run airlines to ever exist?
TeMPOraLabout 1 hour ago
> On what? One of the most horribly run airlines to ever exist?

On real life data on operations of a real large company.

Internally, most big companies are probably just as big of a mess, if not worse. But you can't get that data easily.

Mistletoe44 minutes ago
“Gemini, do the opposite of everything in the Spirit archives.”
dec0dedab0deabout 1 hour ago
funny, spirit was the only big airline without a crash
steveBK123about 2 hours ago
Maybe they are building a social credit score system
baggachipz8 minutes ago
The social credit system already exists; we're just not allowed to see it.
balderdash29 minutes ago
Great - now spirit will be the “model”, could you pick a worse example?
cmiles8about 2 hours ago
“This call is being recorded for quality assurance, and to give us more assets to sell in bankruptcy.”
everyoneabout 2 hours ago
How the fuck is that even remotely legal? ... "deidentified" my ass.
noir_lordabout 2 hours ago
You know when we (they) tell you not to do any personal computing on work devices/systems and to keep your devices completely separate from work ones.

Yeah this (and lawsuits/investigations) are why, the employer owns the data, in some contexts (like this one) it can become an asset (or a liability) but in either case it's not yours.

Of course that only gets you part of the way there anyway see Twitch recently opting in all users by default to mined for AI and only adding an opt out after backlash with a quote that was so on the nose it made me stop "If we'd have asked them to opt in, they wouldn't have opted in" (paraphrasing but it was that blunt).

embedding-shapeabout 2 hours ago
Ah, but Google promised to remove PII they found in this deidentified dataset, so worry not.

> If you’ve flown Spirit and worry that Google will soon know about a testy conversation you had with the airline’s call center, you’re being told not to worry. The court filing says the data was deidentified before being put on sale and Google has promised to scrub any PII it finds in the trove.

gspr17 minutes ago
> Ah, but Google promised to remove PII they found in this deidentified dataset, so worry not.

… and even if someone can prove that they didn't, the only consequences will be a teeny-tiny slap on the wrists.

This kind of stuff needs to come with promises to pay the P in the PII big bucks if the I is indeed I.

akoboldfryingabout 2 hours ago
I basically agree, but I'd also say: Every Gmail user has already accepted such a promise as sufficient.
phatfishabout 1 hour ago
I wouldn't be surprised if Gmail data has far more access restrictions internally at Google than this auction bought dump.
sscaryterryabout 2 hours ago
Ah, trust me bro :)
Razenganabout 1 hour ago
I would love it if there were services where I could let them see everything I do, including when I poo and wank, if they just directly paid me for it.

No I don't want to just use your enshittified service for free. Fucking pay me and watch me all you want :)

xyzelement38 minutes ago
We don't want your data if you are getting off on it.
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evekabout 1 hour ago
Tangental, but can’t wait for automated blackmail from crawlers continuously digging through my digital footprint. /s

Martha Wells hit it nicely in The Murderbot Diaries.

radresabout 2 hours ago
they wrote a shit article while trying to make some airline puns
stuaxoabout 2 hours ago
Woke up on the wrong side of the bed?
398642258909about 2 hours ago
Each Register headline is worse than the last one.
hn_submit35 minutes ago
I wonder if the owners of YCombinator have sold all comments to Big Tech for A.I. training.

And how long before Google and Microsoft add to their T&Cs that all your anonymized email will be used to train their A.I.?

bitmasher930 minutes ago
Are all of the messages public and crawlable?
Forgeties7930 minutes ago
I don’t know why any company would pay. It can’t be that difficult to scrape this site and they already did it indiscriminately for years, violating laws and taking down public libraries and other public resources with no regard for their impact.