Back to News
Advertisement
Advertisement

⚡ Community Insights

Discussion Sentiment

67% Positive

Analyzed from 1462 words in the discussion.

Trending Topics

#replication#ariely#don#more#programmers#https#research#should#why#epstein

Discussion (35 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

Aurornisabout 1 hour ago
Dan Ariely has a long history of controversies and studies with falsified data. He wrote 3 popular books and gained a lot of fame before others started uncovering the problems in his studies

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Ariely

It’s amazing that problems with his studies are still being uncovered. Equally amazing that Duke still maintains a relationship with him after so many problems have been identified with his research.

onemoresoop41 minutes ago
Reminds me of Francesca Gino for data fabrication. She was also a best seller of sorts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesca_Gino

dgacmu18 minutes ago
It should - one of the papers that Data Colada reported on about Gino was co-authored with Dan Ariely: https://datacolada.org/98
p-e-wabout 1 hour ago
> In 2006, when he was a professor at the MIT Media Lab, Ariely conducted experiments including administering electric shocks with a research assistant who had no human–subject training. […] Ariely confirmed this and said that he wasn't aware that the research assistant did not have the needed one-hour online human–subject training.

A one-hour online training is all that’s needed to be considered ready to conduct experiments involving things like electric shocks on human subjects?

Forget about this guy, the entire field needs to be burned to the ground and rebuilt from scratch.

paytonjjones35 minutes ago
I don't know the details here but I am a psychologist.

The "electric shock" normally used in psych studies is tiny, it's like the equivalent of one of those little toy prank buzzers. You couldn't possibly hurt someone with it, this is really a non-issue.

Related side note: Electroconvulsive therapy uses much larger electric shocks but, administered safely by a clinic, is extremely safe, has relatively minor side effects compared to e.g. SSRIs, and is very effective for severe depression. It's a huge shame that it's undeserved reputation prevents it from being more popular. Blame "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" for its inaccurate portrayal.

lostlogin18 minutes ago
> Electroconvulsive therapy uses much larger electric shocks but, administered safely by a clinic, is extremely safe, has relatively minor side effects Blame "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" for its inaccurate portrayal.

YMMV. I’ve encountered people who have had ECT forced on them whilst inadequately sedated. They have been older/elderly but it would be a mistake assuming it’s always without causing harm.

Waterluvian25 minutes ago
For what it’s worth, I wasn’t even thinking about the physical danger when I was… shocked… that you only need a one hour online course. It’s that they’re interacting with people in a somewhat clinical way as an implicit authority. The shock would obviously cause discomfort and therefore stress (or why even do it).
jnwatson34 minutes ago
"Ariely is named 636 times in the Epstein files".

Yikes.

Waterluvian25 minutes ago
Context matters. Otherwise we’re just being clowns.
KylerAce18 minutes ago
This. Significant portions of the Epstein files are random noise. Though even for a popularish author it'd be strange to be in enough 1990-2018 news snippets to reach that many EF hits. In any case "is in the Epstein files" should in general be replaced with "is in the Epstein files, including this email to/from them I found"
NDlurker30 minutes ago
iirc Epstein funded the media lab and had an office there
bawolffabout 1 hour ago
It does seem like its way too easy to do this kind of fraud.

The study seems extremely easy to replicate (no fancy equipment needed, just ask some people to proofread), and yet nobody did until now. Is there some way to change incentives to get people to try and replicate? Assign undergrads to replicate random research papers?

dbrans11 minutes ago
Replication is unpaid QA on someone else's product. Nobody gets tenure for finding the bug, hence the field has been meaning to get around to it for 20 years.
edgyquantabout 1 hour ago
Why do we even accept anything as true without replication by default?
EA-3167about 1 hour ago
Why do people on this site love nutrition and self-medication fads?

People are surprisingly thoughtless.

argeeabout 1 hour ago
Or as one might say, predictably irrational.
vjulian41 minutes ago
Because “science” doesn’t know everything, and people don’t want to wait until their options are scientifically-validated.

Yoga, breathing exercises, meditation and the like were once considered fads and derided by your ‘science’.

p-e-wabout 1 hour ago
> Is there some way to change incentives to get people to try and replicate?

Sure. Pay them to do it.

tempestn43 minutes ago
If the culture shifted such that people were skeptical of original results but excited about replication, replication would be the big news and people would want to do it. How to get there, I don't know.
ChrisMarshallNY34 minutes ago
I seem to remember a lot of hype about room-temperature superconductors, that croaked upon [lack of] replication. That wasn't too long ago.

Before that, cold fusion.

We still have the ion drive that doesn't require fuel. I don't think it has ever been successfully replicated, but I think that it also hasn't been successfully repudiated, either.

This kind of thing has been going on for a long time. I suspect that not all of it is deliberate fraud, but rather, people wanting their preconceived bias to be satisfied.

keyleabout 2 hours ago
I'm glad the authors seem to have acknowledged the problem and not doing much about it :-)
fn-moteabout 1 hour ago
Per the post, the original authors have requested that the original paper be retracted. That’s well above the bar of “not doing much”.
freediddy26 minutes ago
No paper should ever be referenced until it has been replicated by an independent group. The replication crisis in science is real, and it won't take long for no one to believe anything anymore.
Polizeiposaune18 minutes ago
That rule would make it difficult to report on a failure to replicate a published paper.
freediddy11 minutes ago
Every paper needs to include an independent replication of the study.
hnacct2001about 2 hours ago
Having skimmed this article and the replication study itself (which references some studies that complicate our common understanding of the positive effects of deadlines) I’m left wondering what the constructive alternative is to deadlines and/or how deadlines should be maintained or determined.
bitwizeabout 1 hour ago
There is no alternative to deadlines because time is money, and those downstream of you can ill afford to wait on your deliverables. Part of management's job is to determine how much time it should take so a reasonable timetable that stakeholders can agree to can be set, and then hold you accountable for delivering within that time frame.

I wish we could revive Tim Bryce's mind with AI, because I'd love to hear what he'd have to say in a podcast about this topic:

"Fraud in a procrastination study? You don't say! I don't understand why all this taxpayer money is going to study procrastination in the first place. Procrastination is a well-known phenomenon with a well-understood cause: laziness. Procrastinators didn't have a boot placed to their behinds growing up, so they reached adulthood slacking and coasting on their trust-fund money or couch-surfing at their friends' places, mooching off others. You see this a lot in modern software organizations, especially among the programmers. And now those programmers are all crying because they're about to get replaced by Claude Code. Boo hoo! The military knew how to deal with procrastinators, too: send them to scrub latrines with a toothbrush, and drum them out if they didn't shape up after that! We don't need millions of dollars in government grants going to academic research to study this phenomenon. It's as old as humanity itself—we called it the deadly sin of sloth. Friends, keep the faith!"

bluefirebrandabout 1 hour ago
> I wish we could revive Tim Bryce's mind with AI, because I'd love to hear what he'd have to say in a podcast about this topic:

If he's anything like how the rest of your post read, he sounds like a pretty awful person.

bitwize16 minutes ago
Well, no, he was not a pleasant person. Back in the day he was a management consultant, best known for an essay which rustled many programmer jimmies at the time: "Theory P: The Philosophy of Managing Programmers" (2005):

https://web.archive.org/web/20190416200125/https://it.toolbo...

Theory P advances the thesis that because programmers are lazy pseudointellectuals who chafe at discipline and use their arcane technical knowledge to gain power and leverage in the workplace, they need to be tightly managed, their small roles within the company clearly delineated, and discipline and organization strictly enforced.

A more recent (2018) essay of his is much more blunt and to the point, shows that he hadn't changed his mind at all, and concludes with "Is it any wonder why I despise programmers?":

https://patch.com/florida/palmharbor/amp/28237018/the-proble...

The, ahem, problem with Tim Bryce is twofold:

a) for good or ill, he said what your boss—or at least top management at your company—was thinking

b) he was right about many things. He was an exponent of PRIDE, the first widely available commercial software development methodology created by his father, Milt Bryce. Unlike Scrum or even SAFe, which are more like loose frameworks, PRIDE is a complete soup-to-nuts instruction manual on how to develop, implement, and integrate business information systems (including, but not limited to, those which operate via computer). As Bryce himself said: "PRIDE answers the 5 W's of information systems: WHO is to perform WHAT task, WHERE, WHEN, and WHY." PRIDE is pretty much Spec-Driven Development writ large; in PRIDE, the majority of the work and the source of nearly all the value is in systems analysis, not programming: determining how the business operates and what information systems need to be in place to support the business. This is stepwise-refined into a series of more and more detailed specifications, which are only then handed off to programmers to code. Doing it this way saves time and money and leads to more correct software on the first go. It's also pretty close to the state of the art in AI agentic workflows.

Tim Bryce would be giddy with glee had he lived to see today, because finally all those lazy programmers would be put out of work! Since under PRIDE, programming is mere translation of requirements into code, that can now be automated and asymptotically approaches requiring no human effort at all! The fact that you and I dislike his personality doesn't change the fact that what he advocated for is exactly what's happening now, and that business has for centuries and will continue to operate as if what he believed were true—including the bits about procrastination being simple laziness, correctable with stricter discipline, rather than some sort of complex psychological phenomenon.

ProjectArcturisabout 1 hour ago
Dan Ariely remaining at Duke, after it has become clear that much if not most of his work is fraudulent, is at least as big a black mark for Duke as Jason Arday was for Cambridge.

Not to mention the Epstein ties.

FiddlyPackabout 1 hour ago
Dan Ariely was one of the biggest disappointments and betrayals of my intellectual life. I found the "research" he did to be mind-blowing, groundbreaking stuff at the time, and I told many people his work, sharing his papers and podcasts as a true enthusiast.

I am astonished that he holds an academic-adjacent position anywhere, no matter what his regrets might be today. Private redemption shouldn't be out of reach, but it shouldn't be possible for him to hold a position at any institution concerned with uncovering Truth. He should have resigned out of respect, if his institution was too gutless to do so. It's a tragedy.

fabiensanglardabout 2 hours ago
Oh the irony...