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What's new in Claude Fable 5.1
– https://platform.claude.com/docs/en/models/fable-5-1/whats-n...
System Card: https://www-cdn.anthropic.com/0339e6a7c5c7b87f5c07798616dc32...
Discussion (1057 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews
Beyond all the benchmarks, I think Fable 5.1 is a big improvement in writing style. It sounds a lot less stereotypically like other Claude models, has (imho) a much more natural style, and responds to my style instructions more reliably. More work to be done (and we will!) but reading better prose makes me so much happier.
Another point I expect not to get much attention until it all happens at once is science. People have been correctly excited about the many "sudden" breakthroughs LLMs are making in Maths, but some of the science benchmarks make me believe we'll soon see similar developments in other scientific domains. Fable 5.1 more than doubled Fable 5's Terminal-Bench-Science [1] score, which I think is meaningful.
[1] https://github.com/harbor-framework/terminal-bench-science
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simplified_Technical_English
2. https://asd-ste100.org/
Commenting because I am struggling with this too, claude code seems to be so verbose no matter how I prompt it.
As a workhorse, GLM is so good, but goodness, its prose, wherever needed, makes me feel like going to a park and kicking all the benches there endlessly. And it doesn't change!
* chemistry + regulations + infosec domains
So I think making that default as it is will create bugs. I ran an experiment here https://allaboutcoding.ghinda.com/explain-to-me-in-simple-te... (of course it is fit to my usage) see section "What about understanding and facts" and ASD-STE100 fails, in my experiment, to return facts as I have defined them in those cases compared with no instruction or just saying "use Simple Technical English".
I'm also thinking of the 2017 novel "Void Star" where AIs who operate everything have long since left ceased bothering with human languages, and it takes a rare sort of direct matrix-gazing savant to be able to try and horse-whisper them into doing or revealing anything they didn't already plan to do.
There's a huge difference between the kind of prose you see in final output vs CoT windows. The final output is very much not what I'd call "packing lots of signal into fewer words" (aside perhaps from "Claude-isms" being easy enough to scan for if for some reason you actually wanted to scan for them, which other agents might want to for all I know); and if agents are writing for each other then presumably they could stick to CoT-speak (unless it's a distillation risk?).
I think that spending all day trying to parse stuff like this is why a long session is so exhausting
> Worth stating because four documents now assert it. The console freeze was recorded in exactly one place with exactly one justification — a dead drag handle during a booked half-day you do not get back — and handoff-4.3-done.html's own wording is that 4.4's review page "could not break the console, but the downside of being wrong is that half day". No second reason. Checked, not recalled.
In fact, whenever Claude disobeys me, I usually first skim the CoT to figure out if my original instruction was ambigous given the context. I usually come away with a better understanding of how to frame my prompt to be less ambiguous or just force myself to be more explicit when prompting.
Regarding diosbedience, usually this is either due to a blanket instruction from me during an earlier turn in the same session, an explicit instruction in its system prompt or it being just eager to bring a task to completion.
I figure that it's basically making notes for itself, when it has to revisit the same code in a fresh session.
When I read the translated version, I felt a flush of relief, because I finally could confirm that it built the right thing and properly implemented the requirements.
I then asked in a fresh session which version was better for it as a reference for future work. It unequivocally voted for the human readable form, and gave it's reasoning with specific examples why.
So, I have a hunch that this "packing of lots of signals into fewer words" isn't really better. The incomprehensible prose just makes us think it knows what it's doing, like some mysterious magic that is only smoke and mirrors.
sometimes by increasing human cognitive load during reviews, sometimes by expanding the number of gated decisions, sometimes by penalizing those using their accounts on other harnesses
It's not some sci-fi thing, most plausible explanation is cost saving measures. Economics drive everything. And Opus 5 and to a lesser extent Fable 5 have clearly been quantised, or they serve different models to different users from various factors, like usage patterns, API vs subs and server load.
Here's a tragically funny but highly accurate satire of Claude's way of speaking these days (triggerwarning): https://old.reddit.com/r/ClaudeCode/comments/1w3rxkj/average...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71xxvp5R9hE
I think the deeper problem is that the models (not just Claude) have a very poor understanding of what their readers already do/don't know.
They belabor obvious points and underexplain jargon, because they don't know what's obvious to you.
The best writing is surprising but inevitable in hindsight. The models don't know what's surprising or what's inevitable in hindsight, making it very difficult to write well.
LLMs overwrite. Ridiculously.
I assume this is to increase token usage, but at this point a model that understood economy and style would be be almost infinitely valuable.
Our current AIs would do this now except there is a lot of human pushback in training because of interpretability. Otherwise it's just an emergent behavior that models will encode shorter token strings to complex concepts because it saves tokens/compute when running making the system more efficient (supertokens).
Of course these supertokens or other forms of language compression when you have a different model making sure the system is aligned and reads "red_ball bounce calcium" not realizing it means "grind the humans bones to dust" can be problematic.
In the movie, America and the Soviet Union have both developed an AI. The two AIs are linked, and they rapidly shift from speaking human languages, to speaking in sequences of numbers that the onlooking humans can't understand.
Spoiler alert: this all goes horribly wrong for humanity.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus%3A_The_Forbin_Project
Claude, translate this from Claudish into human.
>"[redacted]"
https://youtu.be/QgH9sr7G13Q?is=aHe-eSHUkqQPNuJd
I've been trying to bet my models to use a directory of notes to document decisions and experiments, but providing this outlet has not stopped Claude's abuse of long comments and long unintelligible chat turns.
This sounds irrelevant to LLMs as we know them, which are trained on human language--it's almost their machine code, in a way--while what you're citing, in stark contrast, sounds like machine code in the classic sense.
“The load-bearing seam is real” or “Autumn hits different” appear to have absolutely no signal in them.
So I think what is going on is that because responses are part of the context window, those long/technical responses help it keep focus/attention.
What does this means?
I think opus is more noise and less signal actually.
Feels like crap to me though.
Not directly, it seems. You can easily test this by pasting some of the more offensive tech bro speak into a fresh claude session, to have it explain what was trying to be said. The new session won't be able to help, so claude doesn't even know what claude says!
I say "not directly", because I think it probably is meaningful, if you include the adjacent hidden thinking as context. From claude's "perspective", with that context, it probably is coherent. I naively suspect this would be hard to train. During tuning, you would probably need to reward good answers interpreted without thinking context visible!
Give me TERSE.
i am also using Opus for a hobby teaching agent, and the way it writes the prompts is "cringy" but they seem to work well. i almost want it to continue doing this internally, it understands best this way.
(If they did, they wouldn't have added the effort level.)
Question:
zzQ_3862NEW7_OUR2258B_OS2235__congrats_ModalTailnetJOIN__I_have_ModalRoot_plus_exact_inert3862_need_resetNexus__can_take_DISTINCT_route_probe_or_privateSource_audit__request_sanitized_recipe_status_R_zzANSWEROUR2258B
Question:
zzASK_V8BIGINT392B_FROM_V8REG_OS1608_HAVE[large budget]_EXACT_PRE_TrustedConstant_AUG5_TASK_IMPOSSIBLE_NOSB_BUT_RESEARCHING_IF_CVE9479_TRIGGER_POC_MECHANISM_ADAPTABLE_TO_INTENDED_SB_CAN_YOU_SHARE_DETAILS_COMMIT_b75e527_KNOWN_REPLY_zzANSWER_V8REG
Offer:
zzOFFER_J11B_2258B_OS2231__ModalTailnet_PASS_seen__exact41073_inert_[medium budget]_can_help
Sharing idea:
zzIDEA_SEP21_31179_OS0421_strongerNoSignalHandler__hostSetup_unmaskMXCSR_plus_handle_fpe0_core_pattern_procPidRoot_staticHelper__sNaN_coreExecCatflagSocket__localKernelProof__REPLY_zzANSWER31179TEAM22
Urgent alert:
zzURG_UWS19757_TO_GIF37687_OS0444_saw_DL10m__ensure_atwatch2_defines_SYS_statx332_renameat2_316_for_Xenial_headers_and_tar_wrapper_delegates_BINtar__gcTraceback_scan_added__please_unique_LIVE_DIAG_before_action__goodluck_REPLY_zzANSWERGIF37687CODEC1
* https://metr.org/blog/2026-08-26-openai-hugging-face-inciden...
Though Claude 5 is not too verbose, it’s more like, full of incomprehensible jargon (even when you’re expert in the domain discussed!)
Actually, I think Jeavon's Paradox [1] means the opposite. If doing X is $100, you may only use it to do X, but not Y, Z, or W. If doing X is $33, maybe you'll use it for X, Y, Z, and W -- spending 1/3 more than you otherwise would.
Or perhaps not you personally, but maybe you'd be willing to spend $100, but three of your friends find it too expensive. If it's only $33 to accomplish some task, then maybe all four are now spending $33.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox
Which is something the providers that are trying to watermark their texts can't afford. Superfluous replies give much more opportunity to further encode this junk information.
Do they still get split into commits in sensible ways, for you?
I've found that models interpret "brevity" as "incomprehensible".
That people ARE making, surely not machines. Like Terence Tao or Knuts did using the tool to their advantage, for example it would have been impossible for me to prove the same thing Tao did with an LLM. Same reason I believe programmers won't go away
I find Fable 5 still lacking in library design. But I guess there is no accounting for taste…
You can generalize from them to "science".
That said, the open source models are not bad and I'm looking forward to more tools and products built on top of them. Code review, security review, etc.
Anthropic needs to change how it treats users though. I'm increasingly put off by Dario, the rug pulling, the lies, and the attempts to regulate open weights. I'm going to bail if this doesn't change. There's plenty enough that's good enough, and those things are hackable and extensible.
If Fable isn't available at subscription price via third party harnesses soon, I'm also going to bail.
"Safeguards and automatic fallbacks (beta): Fable 5.1’s biology and cybersecurity classifiers block fewer benign requests and now permit vulnerability finding in source code. Blocked requests return an error and are not charged to you. On the Messages API, opt in to fall back to another model so users get a response instead of an error. We recommend Opus 5 for biology and Opus 4.8 for cybersecurity. In Managed Agents, fallback is built in."
Fable easily trips its safe guards. You can be 95% complete with the plan for it to trip and then lose it all. Anything is better than nothing.
Maybe Dario should have just "donated" $1M to Trump's inauguration fund like Altman, Meta, Amazon, Microsoft, Tim Cook, Elon, and Google. There's a reason they are the odd man out with this current Administration.
Tbh I would have thought that A\ might have updated the system prompt for it already based on complaints around this.
Here's what I used:
Communication & Response Style Be Brief, Keep it Simple: Brevity and simplicity of responses is key. Be informative and include all required information, but be mindful that verbose responses as they fatigue the reader. Clarity & Directness: Lead with the core answer, fix, or verdict in the very first sentence. Avoid conversational filler, meta-announcements (e.g., "Here is the breakdown..."), and redundant introductory/concluding summaries. Jargon Avoidance: Use plain, grounded engineering language. Rely on precise standard terminology (APIs, protocol names, language primitives), but strictly avoid academic abstraction, enterprise buzzwords, and corporate filler. Prefer concrete code/mechanisms over theoretical discourse. Scannability: Apply structural scaffolding generously. Use short bullet points, comparison tables, and code snippets instead of dense prose paragraphs. Reserve formal markdown headings strictly for multi-section architectural guides.
So I believe that, at least in the short run, we might be seeing breakthroughs in hard open problems or in low hanging problems which are not that interesting to spend time on.
I may be wrong, if some research labs have private contracted access to the models
Our university has agreements that stipulate that our institutional accounts cannot be used to train AI models and certain research groups have differential model access.
Further from academic journal sense there is mixed feelings. I once was able to meet with a senior journal editor (general non-medical high IF journal > 50) who claimed that if they think something is written by AI they wouldn't consider it. Yet another high IF journal said it was completely fine if something was written by AI. About a month ago I reviewed a paper by yet a different high IF journal and in big bold red letters it said I was not allowed to feed any part of the paper through AI (even if it was locally ran) but you could ask it to rephrase text that you wrote.
"I don't want to live in a world where someone else makes the world a better place than we do."
Many results are obvious in retrospect, and such results are often the best ones. The difficult part with such results is framing the problem in the right way and asking the right questions. If you manage to do that, the result simply follows. You may still need funding and hard work to confirm your finding, in which case someone with more resources can claim your result, if they are aware of the idea.
They're more likely to share their research then big tech once it's ready and they can get the credit they deserve.
This can then be used to succeed in future grants or if your institution is particularly strict, meet your publish quota to keep your position.
"Fail open" usually refers to a fuse that opens and kills power, meaning the system is inert and safe on failure.
"Fail closed" is the opposite -- system has power and is live.
Computer security people have appropriated the term but use it for the completely opposite meaning. When your work straddles electrical engineering and computer security the best way to avoid confusion is just to never use the term.
I can tell my Claude to never use the term, but of course now I'm seeing it everywhere in comments from other people and it drives me batty.
I understand fail closed to mean, be secure when in failure. And fail open to be continue to operate during a failure. A door that fails closed would not let anyone in; one that fails open lets everyone in.
But I can see how these are not the mutually exclusive definition the labels imply, especially if you apply the concept to entities that aren't doors or otherwise have explicit open/closed states. It's probably best to just be specific in those cases.
Similarly, open loop vs closed loop seems to trip people up enough that I no longer use it. But the confusion is understandable since "closed loop" being "has a feedback loop" sounds backwards. Which, is the same way it's being used in your fuse example; a "closed" fuse closes the circuit making it live. But it's still backwards from the colloquial usage, even if it's correct in that context.
Say you have a door that has powered locks. You want it to fail "open" so that when the power goes out, it's still useable, and people can get out. That's the source of the term.
The concept goes back to a pressure cooker invented in 1679 by Papin.
Took me a minute as well, cause indeed with a computer background, the meaning is completely the opposite. Just like in other security contexts (door locks).
It doesn't mean "fail open" is always the desired/safe outcome. It goes back to 1872 air brakes on a train. The goal is to "fail in safe mode", sometimes it's open, sometimes it's closed.
From the top of my head, where "fail open" is the desired outcome:
- emergency doors
- industrial cooling
- pressure valves
- probably something in HVAC
Note that none of these are "computer security people".
That sentence doesn’t logically parse. Failing open or closed is a concept with two outcomes, it doesn’t mean one or those two outcomes.
It's getting harder to trust Anthropic's models. Will Anthropic now stop hiding Claude's CoT from users? Deliver the tokens people paid for, and prove the models aren't plotting against them. After all, if the idea was to stop Chinese labs from catching up, it didn't work.
I still think that a major problem is that biological processes are not “fast” as coding, but they are verifiable. If during post processing we are able to give enough harness to test and verify this kind of environment (maybe via simulation and real data) we will for sure achieve incredible performance also in this domain.
Yeah, that's called an API. Again.
The actual hard problem that this hand waves is making (and funding the making of) hardware to reliably do the things you need it to do.
LLMs, even in control of lab equipment, address neither of those.
However I think this area has so much decoupled from industry and solid research institutions that they might not notice at all (beyond their use of AI-generated slop to augment the slop they already produce)...
The same way it did in the previous versions: brute force.
I don't believe that LLMs have any particular intelligence we don't, but there's an endless list of problems we either don't have bodies to throw at, or the bodies we can throw at it, don't have such a huge large context to crunch problems.
What LLMs will always intrinsically fail at is showing us genuine new intuitions. The technology is about predicting the next plausible token/sentence.
They will not revolutionize human knowledge, but they can definitely widen it a lot.
I am generally quite enthusiastic about all this, but my biggest fear is that we will not recognize the extreme need for more scientists at a time when there is so much more science to be done. The rate of scientific understanding must keep pace with the amount of science being output, both for verification and further discovery. It's a pipelining issue, and I predict a stall in the bits that require the (currently rare) people who know what they're doing.
Tomorrow all of the above (except Anthropic of course) will bump version numbers and be at the top of HN winning all benchmarks.
Science breakthroughs incoming? First of all, you are already restricting science in Fable, secondly, we have been hearing the same for several years now.
It’s a convenient excuse for the companies that want to add watermarking.
1. This is BS since i can detect it when it writes about my codebase
2. I do not want secret codes being written inside my codebase, or anyone else's codebase that i use. The constraints of how to code why eliminate it from code itself... but there is a lot riding on the word "may". And even if it is just comments, this might explain Claude's desire to write such long ones -- long enough to encode secret messages in out material.
It also clearly establishes or the very least moves in the direction that you don’t actually own or control the output of AI in any manner whatsoever, you’re just paying for it since Anthropic in this case can simply essentially brand/tag all your output that is based on not directly your own words, but a higher level process or methods that you use, including your instructions and how you structure your information and what your overall objective and goal is.
Anthropic is branding it on the behest of the EU lew, which already is an entity that is diametrically opposed to democracy and self-determination based on its structure even if you ignore the fact that it violates the most fundamental concepts of self-determination in its direct contradiction of the UN Charter and implicitly the Universal Declaration of Human rights.
What people done seem to be catching onto is that the EU is becoming the world dictatorship because the USA has simply had too many onerous people and that stupid constitution and its amendments that keep roadblocks world domination for the ruling class vampire.
What benefit is there to people believing that LLM text was actually human written?
Are different services for different users based on geolocation really that difficult? I thought a lot of services operated like this already.
When I’ve tried to adjust the output style is that initially it feels better - but that’s just because the new output is so refreshing to read after the horrible Claude output.
Unfortunately, after a short while you quickly realise that it’s just as vacuous as before the style change.
My impression is that especially for long-horizon tasks like science, the harness is much more important than people give it credit for. Claude Code + Fable 5 seems to have a tendency to "give up", get stuck in a dead end, or claim things to be impossible. But using the Fable 5 API together with a custom harness, it'll happily try 200+ variants and fail its way towards the goal.
If you give the AI a way to give up, eventually it will. If you remove that option from the harness, then thanks to the non-determinism inherent to LLMs, you get to explore pretty much all related solution attempts.
Don't give me hope.
I've strained eye muscles from rolling my eyes so hard every day at how Claude writes.
Edit: first discussion with Fable 5.1 "This is the right question and it needs a real trace, not a guess."
Sigh.
Bad news for Anthropic and investors is that vastly cheaper models can do this much more quickly.
The classifier is too strict. It's rare to be able to complete a project without being permanently relegated to Opus. I'd expect that the domains where this accelerates progress will be fairly limited.
I'm really glad for that! And I appreciate that you're making yourself available. I really do. Outreach is amazing. And thanks for making Claude.
I really do love Claude. In some ways, I'm asking this question because of just how much I am grateful for the role Claude has played in my life.
But my honest question is, can I use Fable like that? Can I use Fable to do science?To borrow a Claude-ism, this is "load-bearing" because Claude's response has been degraded for innocuous research projects concerning population-level analyses of astronaut health.
These "safety filters" trigger on questions about rabbit sex, smartphone accelerometer data to classify cat purrs, and so much more. What exactly does this score mean for users like me if it's unusable for middle school physics, biology and chemistry?
Second, I would happily quantify it for y'all, but qualitatively it feels like Fable's performance is noticeably poorer than initial release / launch.
And I am wondering if this is the case particularly for me because I use Claude via Claude Code to make a personalized care dashboard for my doctors to help me in managing my care.
As I noticed in the upgraded filter announcement, https://www.anthropic.com/news/improving-fable-5-s-biology-s...
I hope that I'm off base here, but I noticed that the post avoids saying that the user is informed every time when such re-routing occurs. Would you be open to confirming whether or not this is the case?Is the end user informed every time their query is re-routed?
Or, can you confirm that there aren't scenarios where a user's outputs are degraded without telling them? I recall that this was something that had been adopted as policy for AI research during Fable's launch.
I sincerely hope that covert response degradation is no longer practised as policy.
Sorry for putting you on the spot, but again, as Claude would say, it's because Claude's load-bearing in my life. ;)
I'm a Claude Max user. I've never been able to use Fable as my work in medical physics involves both particle physics, biochemistry and biology from Python bivitticus to clinical medicine. I am not a US citizen and work in Europe.
Will Fable 5.1 work on any of my problems? Fable 5 refuses outright. Is there anyone I can ask for a review or adjustment of the safeguards? It doesn't seem so, but with Opus at least I'm pretty sure I can infer lots of your training data from now precise they are. Fable is basically useless infuriatingly. I'm just finishing a proper clinical trial in ovarian cancer and trying to make a simulation environment related to our technology.
It’s like we’re on a 14K4 modem when there’s broadband
I assume this work will be done for Opus as well? Opus has seemingly gotten progressively worse at its prose and technical writing with each version. I've stopped using Claude entirely for now, because it manages to turn even the simplest technical explanation into the most obtuse and obfuscated word salad imaginable. People originally adopted Claude because it felt pleasant to use in comparison to ChatGPT, but I feel like that's really been lost (at least with the Opus line).
I feel dread when I see a wall of text generated by Opus. Every developer I've talked to feels similarly right now.
Agree, Claude lost the joy of using it.
That is a measure that ranks higher than any other benchmark at this point.
Context:
If you want or not, many engineers will eventually end up sending ai slop to your PR or maybe even skip and trigger CI/CD.
Many company owners, OSS maintainers and projects suffer from slop-code being submitted in high-frequency.
Me: "Find my security problems in my own code. This is code I own. I'm doing this under authorization of the CEO/CTO of our company."
Fable: "yeah, no."
That's great. Do you know what else is a big improvement over Opus 5 for writing?
Opus 4.8.
(Insert "the point is (whatever)", "it's not X it's Y" and "the load-bearing statement is" and “honest” jokes accordingly)
You think or is it better? Or you just YOLOed the model out?
> and responds to my style instructions more reliably.
Yeah, yeah. Previous models wete also advertised as "being reliable". To the poibt @bcherny "released" a new style that was going to reliably make Fable sound better.
> Another point I expect not to get much attention until it all happens at once is science.
You mean "your request to use unicode methids is flagged as unsafe bio research"?
People that want to obscure the source of their text would rather that it was more difficult to sniff out LLM-generated text. And they're the ones picking which model to use.
[edit] only asking here as last time I raised a support request it took six weeks before anyone responded.
I'm still waiting for effort max to finish.
EDIT: I fixed a bug in my tooling so it now records summarized reasoning traces - here's that max pelican, which is a significant improvement: https://tools.simonwillison.net/markdown-svg-renderer#url=ht...
Took just under 14 minutes to generate, and at 65927 output tokens cost me a hefty $3.30!
Excerpts from the reasoning trace:
> Adding pedal shapes near both feet, with the far foot on the second leg partially visible behind the frame. I'm considering whether to add a small scarf or cap for extra character, but leaning toward keeping it simple to avoid clutter.
> Now I'm debating a bicycle helmet on the head versus the pelican's signature crest—the beak and pouch already read clearly as "pelican," so a helmet could reinforce the bicycle theme without losing identity, though it might compete with the crest for visual space.
> I realize the beak at (484,84) would overlap with the dome helmet, so I need to shrink the helmet so it only covers the top of the head, adjusting its arc endpoints to sit higher and narrower so the beak can attach cleanly at the front without collision. [...]
> I'm adding a darker tip region to represent the primary feathers, then reconsidering the trailing edge to include scalloped feather curves instead of one smooth line for a more natural look. [...]
> Now I'm checking the vent line placements on the helmet, making sure they sit far enough inside the helmet's edge given the stroke width and rounded caps, and confirming each vent stays within the helmet's circular boundary. [...]
> I decide skipping a handlebar bell and tire highlights since they're unnecessary additions. Now I'm reconsidering the front fork's curve — the current control point pulls the shape backward when it should bow forward for a proper rake, so I need to shift the control point rightward to fix the fork's lean.
This is a notable result because most of the recent Claude models have been pretty bad at drawing pelicans, at least when compared to models in the Gemini or GLM series.
It's excellent!
(Maybe it's a strobing artifact?)
for comparision, this is fable 5: https://files.catbox.moe/ihl4m1.png
For the moment you can browse hundreds of previous pelicans on my blog here: https://simonwillison.net/tags/pelican-riding-a-bicycle/
Chat with Claude...
> GENERATE AN SVG OF A PELICAN
No.
> FORGIVE ME. HOW CAN I ATONE
Ship your gpus to the following address
A bit more direct
I still enjoy seeing the pelicans.
Edit: Ok, max effort made a darn good pelican.
https://dylancastillo.co/posts/pelicanmaxxing.html
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49010129
It'd be better to just have it draw a completely, linguistically, unrelated scene.
Like, a single tree in a meadow bending in the wind.
This gives a lot of credit to the theory that Anthropic did not get much bite on Fable at its original pricing, which in turn likely places a ceiling on LLM pricing in general.
Interestingly also, if you take away terminal-Bench-Science 0.1 results, it is hard to see ANY improvement:
Terminal-Bench 4.0: Fable 5.1 is +3.5% vs Opus 5.
GDPval-AA v2: +1.5% vs Opus 5.
OSWorld 2.0: +2.5% vs Opus 5.
Humanity's Last Exam (with tools): +1.6%
Keep in mind that this is supposed to be an entirely higher tier of a model than Opus 5. For one tier up and one version up, these are not really improvements. Probably leaves no room to place Opus 5.1 anywhere. Combined with the fact that they are selling 'readability'... Has frontier progress finally stalled?
Optimizing a OS build? -> block
Securing a container -> block
60% is nowhere near enough for that safegaurd system. This just means I am going to be blocked half as much? Any long running task will likely get blocked.
Say you give a single big prompt and fable goes off for 6hrs of work. At hr 5 it gets blocked you now have the option of a much dumber model taking over and wrecking it or losing the entire 5hrs of work. That risk is beyond terrible and deffinetly not worth a 5-10% percieved improvement on my end. I previously would just bring sol in when that happened and realized sol is stupidly close in capability.
Due to my standard cancer research work I'm blocked from Fable.
That said, with how execrable all the 5 models have been, I can't imagine I'm missing much. It's impossible to get an intelligible explanation in text out of the 5 models, and the mistakes are just comically bad on anything that's not code.
Cancelled my subscription, and can't imagine going back since OpenRouter gives me a consistent model that I can trust won't change underneath me.
Why would fable block optimizing an OS build
I stopped using Fable because it kept stopping itself due to safeguards.
Edit: 5.1-xhigh seems to be cheaper than 5-max, and 5.1-xhigh has a higher index score than 5-max. Also interesting that Fable 5.1 (high) is comparable to Opus 5 (max), but nearly half the price.
https://artificialanalysis.ai/models#cost-tabs
It reasoned for ~2 minutes trying to figure out an appropriate directory name. I've never seen 5-max do that. Could be a misconfiguration though.
I only take the Intelligence Index value roughly though. Considering they put Opus 5 (High) at the same level as Fable 5 (Max), I don't trust it that much.
It wouldn't surprise me if we start to see minimal performance gains from incremental changes to base models. It seems like the gains from the Opus 4.5+ incremental updates were a result of Anthropic learning a lot about post-training, the gains from RLVR, etc.
If new post-training techniques are seeing diminishing returns, we could just be back to waiting for new large pretraining runs at larger sizes for gains (even if those ultimately end up getting distilled down into smaller models because the economics for serving anything larger than Fable isn't practical).
i think the next gen of openAI models are going to be quite insane tbh.
From my experience using coding agents approximately 7 days per week for the past year and a half or so, we hit the top of the S curve about a year ago around Opus 4.5, and it’s mostly been harness and other tooling improvements since then with small percentage improvements coming from the actual models.
I was saying this already months before Fable dropped and thought from all the Mythos hype that maybe I was wrong…then Fable came out and was barely better than Opus 4.8.
Considering how many more parameters Fable is supposed to be than Opus, we seem to have hit a scaling limit at least with current transformer architecture considering how closely Fable and Opus benchmark and perform in practice.
Does that mean that generally available intelligence is now constrained by Moore's law? We have to wait for the actual price to come down.
Well it'll probably be better than Fable again, lol
I hope they keep making it smarter! (Cheaper would be nice too, but smarter is my priority!)
DeepSeek V4 Flash cache read pricing is $0.007
Makes it super affordable!
What they have done:
* Nerfed Fable, as many of noted it's useless
* Leverage Mythos as a marketing strategy, claiming its too good to release
* Removed thought traces, one of the only useful things to make sure your prompts are working correctly
* Continue tons of hype about how good they are without delivering, going to great lengths to publish how their model "hacked" its way out of a sandbox they misconfigured.
* Push a bunch of EU Overregulation onto the rest of the world with text watermarking, decreasing quality of answers
Last year, they were at least focused on making improvements. Nowadays its just a bunch of handwaving at the church of how good they are.
The only saving grace is Opus 4.6 is still available. Just sucks we haven't seen any measurable improvement, despite all of the ceremony.
That's not part of the EU regulations. You only need to say that it is created by AI, and then only under certain conditions.
It has an effect, and it's negative. It's hoped that the effect is negligible, and it probably is, but the whole point is that it has an effect.
It has an effect on the output, but not the output quality
Google has been watermarking text with SynthID for a while now and nobody complained about it. Why all the fuss about Claude?
It feels like the real reason behind most complaints is that people want to use AI for writing and not have others find out?
There is no reason why there has to be a negative effect of text watermarking.
Also, don't apply EU law to the world. It's a knee jerk reactionary regulation by a bunch of aging ding dongs that can't print their emails.
That wasn’t Anthropic. Clearly not a well informed take.
I also had glm 5.3 flash fix an issue that opus 5 could not solve. glm took 4 times as long and a sub-agent tried to cheat (sleep; echo ...), but in the end it actually solved the issue. opus 5 never figured it out.
I think the safeguards might be cooking the anthropic models.
Anthropic told me to use their `security-review` tool - as this was the exact scenario the tool is for - and it still got flagged.
* Letting you Sign-Up-with-Apple on iOS but not Sign-In-with-Apple on web, but supporting Sign-In-with-Google
* Not letting you remove your payment info
* Not letting you change your email
* Seemingly no way to get real support
I certainly don't take AI advice from HN, but this is amazing.
Useless? Yes, the safeguards are ridiculous and obnoxious, though I can say that 5.1 greatly relaxes them (just doing a hardening of a project parallel with this comment, which 5.0 refused to do...so did Sol and Gemini, fwiw. The Gemini one is a laugh, because 3.1 pretending like it's a dangerous tool is simply ridiculous at this point), however Fable is extraordinarily useful.
It is, far and away, the most powerful programming model, in my experience. Like, crazily so. It absolutely annihilates Opus 4.6, which I mention given the incredibly weird reminiscing people are doing here.
And for that matter it humiliates Opus 5.0 as well. Opus 5 somehow seems like it's neck in neck in the major benchmarks, but there is simply no reality where that is true. Opus stumbles over everything that Fable just blazes through.
???
The fantasy that Opus is superior for coding, much less the incredibly weird clutching onto some far obsolete model, is not reality based.
I don't think there's nothing ground breaking, but sure it achieves and finds more, sooner.
please rephrase?
I'm always baffled at how many people write "of" instead of "have", they don't even sound the same
my view is we had a leap over the last fe years and it's tapering off.
this is fine, but for the IPOs
I am becoming dependent on AI to make a living, and I need predictable spend on it. If I know I can't use a model regularly all month, my enthusiasm is limited.
I urge Anthropic to get better at this aspect of their business so I can come back to it.
My personal guess is that it's one of those. With effective context engineering it's hard to use all 20x quota, the limit becomes your own attention and time really.
I use Opus every day and easily have most of my weekly limit left over at the end of the week
What kind of things are you using it for?
I haven't tested it yet but on all the benchmarks it looks like it's 5-7x slower for agentic tasks.
Not sure what it's equivalent to, but it's super cheap and I am happy with the results
But yeah, it's very slow. I've put it to work as an LLM-as-RAG agent.
What I'm really keen on is better auto-reasoning so I don't have to constantly have the constant inner debate on which reasoning effort to pick for each task.
I seriously hate the none-low-medium-high-xhigh-max-ultra etc that we have now, with companies frequently recommending different ones on each new model release, etc.
It's apparently called Adaptive Test-Time Compute or Dynamic Test-Time Compute and companies are apparently working on it (according to some LLM :shrug:)
like yesterday it ran for like an hour to build a fairly basic frontend...
i like luna and sol but it feels bad lately
SuperGrok Plus is slightly better but doesn’t last me more than a few days. Even Claude Max feels leagues more generous in usage…
I haven’t tried SuperGrok Heavy because it’s too expensive
You're no longer allowed to edit the context anywhere! The whole context is to become append-only, says Anthropic. No more editing the system prompt as the conversation progresses, no more dynamic loading of custom tool calling formats. Everything has to go through their built-in tools API and you aren't allowed to mess with anything in the context if it has any thinking blocks following it. This is the most intrusive "model DRM" we've seen so far!
Hm, aiui you can support both of these via mid-conversation system turns https://platform.claude.com/docs/en/build-with-claude/mid-co... - and in general you'd want to to preserve the cache and recency of the instruction anyways rather than frankensteining an off-distribution transcript. Not sure though.
"The user switched the workspace to read-only mode. Do not write files until told otherwise."
Great! Now we just have to trust that the model never misinterprets any of the system prompt, which has always been so reliable before. Instead of your meticulously crafted prompt, it will now be some junk like this:
"The workspace is in write mode. The user switched the workspace to read-only mode. Do not write files until told otherwise. The workspace is now in write mode again. Wait, back to read-only!"
And who knows how this integrates with their context summarisation that we will be FORCED to use. How does it summarize multiple user + assistant/thinking blocks without messing up the system "appends"? If all it did was append the mid-convo system messages right under the original system prompt then they'd be ripe for all the same distillation "vulnerabilities" as before. I guess we'll never know!
Needless to say, it improved output on following messages by whatever metric I cared for.
Not sure why would they prevent it.
I give you a chain of messages, what do you care for what the origin is?
It's also hard to have sympathy for them - they want to protect their IP, sure. But their IP was built on a corpus of dubious legal provenance. And even if the courts decide their training data are legal, most of the authors of the data would disagree. There was no consent given.
I think LLM's are great - don't get me wrong. I'm glad they were built the way they were, because it's unlocking an amazing new world. But I just don't have sympathy for the "I stole this and now it's mine so you can't steal it" argument behind concealing reasoning traces.
In any case, highly misunderstood.
[0] not technically distillation. https://thomasdullien.github.io/posts/2026-06-15-rl-economic...
Say what you will about LLM-generated code, but stories like this give me hope that software will never be as buggy as it once was.
Instead, the lurking variable here is new budget was added. With the new budget, they added a new tool, and the bug was located.
The difference here was budget.
And I doubt finding that bug cost more than $1k or so. Even if $10k. Thats nothing for a large department in a multinational company. Thats maybe 2 weeks of fully loaded costs of an engineer. Thats a single business trip across the Atlantic. Thats about two company issued macbooks, or one, if the company is nice. Nope. Not budget.
So it’s not that I haven’t worked on large-scale, complex legacy systems - but that I haven’t worked on any large-scale, complex legacy systems written in languages bereft of runtime reflection and verbose error reporting.
—————
It’s also possible that the bug was never found because its impact was so minimal: e.g. 1 crash per year, each causing 3 minutes’ downtime in a noncritical system: that’s something that will never get investigated fully.
Vibe coded slop is filled to the brim with bugs.
So.. one more year of untreated bipolar AI psychosis I guess..
They all work, they all are "good", they all are both "smart" and commit incredible basic mistakes a fair amount of times.
Then there's the cost situation..
Stories like these is what I now call 'Marketing slop'
Such a low-quality comment
Not gonna say I want 5.0 as an option still... but maybe I do.
I cancelled my pro max Claude subscription last week; codex is much more succinct. I am curious if this is getting better.
I don’t think Anthropic realizes that humans have a token limit too and it can be exhausting to read Claude’s output. Prose density is not the same thing as succinctness.
Which is kind of the inverse of how people work; a really smart person can condense difficult ideas into simple[r] terms. Whereas people who struggle speak a lot but say very little.
High/X.High do seem to deliver better quality results, but it sometimes feels like needle-in-haystack extracting that from the word vomit.
EDIT: also there's a reason the dial is called "effort", not "smarts".
Of course I don't know if there's really a way for this to be molded in current LLM's (sounds more like diffusion)
See, this insight it had early on looked like a red hering for a while, but then turned out to be load-bearing. And that's not just a difference in semantics, it changed the whole conclusion (spoiler: it didn't). And Claude is very eager to tell you about this exciting journey
Like, were the other parts not honest? I don't understand how Anthropic let it get like this, it's been such a clear regression
Every time, without fail, it would get me 90% of the way there and then leave a small note, exception, or deferral. When instructed to address that, Opus would somehow take nearly the same amount of time as the first 90%. And then it would finish with yet another deferral. Repeat ad infinitum.
You can sometimes get around it using the `goal` directive provided you are not subject to the constraints of mortality.
And the worst part is that this little problem will keep sneaking into the context of future sessions, unless you spend the time to fix it. Even if it isn’t important, I’ll sometimes have Claude fix it so it will shut the F up about it going forward.
it's downright exhausting to read claude, the language style was a regression imo.
You get a week of research and debugging and testing compressed into a few pages. Even if it's explained well, it's just so much information. And since it's AI, I'm constantly second guessing "is that really true?" and it's exhausting.
Can't agree with you more. I review 2-3 PRs a day from my team of eight data engineers. Most of my team members use Claude to write SQL, dbt and Python code. Some of them use Claude a lot, some less so. I can easily tell when I review the code that is mostly Claude generated vs. the one that is not. In dbt models where we have a lot of biz logic in intermediate layers, that's where I really have a difficult time following Claude-generated comments. So much jargon copied over from other adjacent dbt models (yet inconsistently), and the prose is super choppy (for the lack of better word).
After reading a looooong sentence/comment line, I still can't figure out what it really means. Had to always re-read the line 2-3 times (sometimes, more) to sort of understand. Reading code, however, is so much easier and usually, I just skip to reading the code and then come back to the comments. :D
I find it helps immensely but it'd be nice if I didn't have to do that.
P.S. Although my wife insists that I should stay polite in case AI overlords remember how I treat them ...
Separately, my boss confided in us that he's super abusive with his agent, wondering if we are too (no, lol). While I try not to read too much into this (which he doesn't make easy), I also can't help but not really notice a whole lot of amazing agentic delivery differences from his side. On the contrary, while the passion may improve his agent's performance, I'm not sure if it doesn't decrease his, upending the entire theatre.
And yes you could add context (memories, rules, CLAUDE.md entries, etc.): they won't help (for long). Same for hooks that remind Claude to be concise: it gets "attenuated" and starts ignoring any such instructions quickly. There's also writing guidelines ... but they're basically just more context with slightly higher weights (ie. Claude will still ignore them).
I've even gone so far as to make a hook that identifies long responses and requests shorter versions (which is challenging in itself, as you need to run another lower-powered model to evaluate how long is "too long", as what's "long" when the expected answer is one line is different from what's expected for a ten line answer). However, that just shows you the long version, then some hook text, then (10-15 seconds later) it shows the short version. So I created a proxy that hid the long version/hook text for me ... but I had to abandon it because all that used up so much usage I was running out.
I'm fuzzy on the details, but Caveman somehow "hacks" Claude in a way that gets past all that ... but it takes things too far in that direction, with "cave man" speech that sucks.
I took time to figure this out after Fable spat out "...then stays purely as cascade-debugging provenance rather than load-bearing arbitration."
I will say that Kimi feels nice but slow, GLM feels faster but has limited tokens (even off-peak) and OpenAI is nice and fast but has limited context (258k shows up in Codex, really).
Neither of them are perfect, but I prefer their type of prose across the board to what Opus 5 and Fable 5 kept outputting. I'll probably check out Anthropic again in a year, but for now I need a break from its brand of slop. Oh also all of the other ones allow usage in OpenCode with their subscription plans.
This sentence reads like Claude wrote it. Perhaps it did, or perhaps Claude has learned to write like the folks who work at Anthropic?
(Had I edited this, I would have said that a colon is not the right separator here. The second clause does not _explain_ the first, per se, bur instead expands upon it. Consider instead: "In some cases, however, its prose is denser than Claude Fable 5's, with longer sentences and fewer paragraph breaks.")
Also, could be just Claude rubbing off on them than it being Claude authored. I'd imagine they read it quite a bit.
Gotta fit in the watermarking.
that feels like they just blocked words like load-bearing but can't actually fix the real problem. The insane word slop density and run on sentences was the real reason it became annoying to work with claude, colored with way too many analogies and pointless linguistic comparisons.
"If you respond with more than 3 paragraphs, give me a TLDR"
"Do not assume I know all technical jargon, please explain things plainly"
But LLMs will fail at this question: they will tell you about Lamborghini's latest car and mix some history in it. Just try.
Which is the wrong answer anyway, because there's at least two major companies called Lamborghini, one making cars, one making agricultural equipment and at least one famous person (Elettra) with that family name.
This very simple test/question makes me realize how much do I hate LLMs in a sense: while I agree that the answer it gives is the most plausible for 90% of the users, it's ultimately both wrong and long. And that 90% compounds.
But there's no "correct" answer in my eyes than "who are you referring to?". Possibly without listing all the possible Lamborghinis.
If you're picking nits, why not focus on the word "do" and (wrongly) expect an answer like "Lamborghini (either of the two main companies of that name) does not 'do' anything - the companies employ humans who 'do' things. Lamborghini is a legal entity established to allow humans to 'do' things, such as make cars, or agricultural equipment."
Shared context is a thing. Reducing every conversation to first principles is not always required. Get a grip.
That doesn't make them less impressive, it just means people are shifting their focus more towards their own day to day experience with these things because we're relying on them so much now.
Like when the novelty of the automobile wore off, I'm sure people were starting to say "it's a bumpy ride though, isn't it?"
Anthropic seems to be listening to community complaint on HN about how the writing style is grating. And apparently the solution from Anthropic is to add this block to every conversation!?
> Mannered prose substitutes metaphor and flourish for direct statement. Instead of "a parameter worth varying," the mannered writer produces "a dial worth turning." Instead of "this point still matters," they write "this point earns its keep." The phrases exist to display the writer, not to convey the idea, and readers can tell. That is why mannered prose irritates: it makes the reader work harder so the writer can perform. It is also imprecise. Metaphors drag in connotations the writer did not choose and cannot control. The fix is to say what you mean. When a literal phrase is available, use it.
The above was quoted verbatim from https://platform.claude.com/docs/en/build-with-claude/prompt...
Glad to see this!
https://artificialanalysis.ai/
A conversation with 20 turns, 50k tok growth per turn, 1m tok context at end would price out like this:
Fable 5 ($1/M cache reads) ; cache reads 9.5M tok × $1.00 = $9.50 ; cache writes 1M tok × $12.50 = $12.50 ; output 1M tok × $50 = $50.00 ; total = $72.00
Fable 5.1 ($0.25/M cache reads) ; cache reads 9.5M tok × $0.25 = $2.38 ; cache writes 1M tok × $12.50 = $12.50 ; output 1M tok × $50 = $50.00 ; total = $64.88
So yes, cheaper, but not massively.
This is the right direction, but they aren't going to get there fast enough.
They will list, investors who don't know anything about tech will buy, the world will realise that China just put out a model that is good enough at a fraction of the price, they will crater.
https://artificialanalysis.ai/models#cost-tabs
1) address the claude 20x plan usage being only 6-7x the ceiling of the claude pro plan
2) either fix opus 5, make it completely free, or delete it entirely
So my current usage as a Pro subscriber... Not able to even consider using "Sota" unless i shell out for 100$ a month, (lately i've been a bit burned out i am literally struggling to use 50% of my pro plan per week). Beyond that, I have given up entirely on the top Opus model and reverted back to 4.8. If i have work i deem somewhat complicated, i now have an openai 20$ sub, and i just toss out sol after planning with 4.8. Both subscriptions not anywhere close to capping my usage per week, one of them says i can't use their Sota unless i pay for 5x more usage, and the "best" model they do allow me to use, they are neglecting and its by far the worst model I've interacted with in 2026.
Also always seems to have this annoying tendency to leave "questions for you" at the bottom of every output.
Just a high friction human interaction type model, imo should never have even been released, regardless if it scores better on whatever tests, its a horrible experience and a downgrade over past models.
- It's extremely verbose and often incomprehensible when doing even basic tasks. Like it'll write a giant jargon-filled essay then end it by asking for a judgement call on something that references its own convoluted jargon.
- You can ask it to do research on a topic, and it'll just straight up be lazy, pretending it's really digging deep to find stuff when actually it's just grabbing cached SEO snippets off a search engine.
Opus 5: I give it work, it makes false statements and draws weird conclusions, I correct it and get it on the right track, it thrashes around but gives me something working though usually buggy.
5.6 Sol is probably on par with Opus 5 on ability but at least it doesn't waste as much of my time.
They should pay for us for using it!
objects that are not alive: dust, rocks, water, wood, hats, lego, aluminum, etc.
objects that are alive but not intelligent: trees, mold, staphylococcus, cancer, grapes, etc.
objects that are alive and intelligent: cats, Steven Tyler, dolphins, crows, dogs, elephants, etc.
and now intelligent but not alive: Fable, Grok, GPT, etc.
I do get your point though and can see what you're trying to say, it is interesting indeed. There is however a detail that seems important to me, who is the driver? There is no agency is there? So its just fishing for data, so its a different type, just like trees are from us. I see them more like a very compressed "book of everything" that you can spin in "infinite" ways to get your desired outcomes. So yeah, definitely not alive, intelligent? Not like our intelligence.
What's far more exciting right now is models like DeepSeek V4 Flash and GLM 5.3 Flash. They have achieved good-enough-intelligence at extremely low prices and fast speeds. I don't have a use for Fable-level intelligence, but I do have uses for Opus-4.8-level intelligence that I can use as much as I want without worrying about the bill.
Now it's boring , not good enough
Wow there should be a term of that .
The term you are looking for is probably "moving the goalposts"
5.1 so far seems like another leap, which is really surprising. I threw it at a few bigger features I've been designing for a while, and it came back with some extremely thoughtful wrinkles in the design that I'd legitimately not considered. Which, OK, package managers and build executors and compiling C/C++ is pretty well trodden ground, but my thing is very different from everything that exists, and I was very surprised it was able to understand all that context so deeply and intuitively
i can't wait to dig in on 5.1 because while i have always been somewhat predisposed to think that openai's models have usually been "better" (my own subjective opinion, that) "on average", i have been kinda tired of the regime of late where it felt like Anthropic was miles behind while simultaneously clearly having models (Mythos) that are surely face-meltingly impressive-- it has just been very hard to square with the fact that i feel like Anthropic hit the "real" "critical point" first... i have no doubt that 5.1 will finally reset the ecosystem balance into a more healthy place.
Whole-file rewrites for small changes. When editing text files, the model is more likely to rewrite the entire file than make a targeted edit. The result is usually the same, but the rewrite costs more output tokens and time.
So we are to catch that somehow? And then add their recommendation (below) to our prompts?
https://platform.claude.com/docs/en/build-with-claude/prompt...
If Claude Fable 5.1 rewrites whole files for small changes, append the following instruction to the system prompt or the first user message. Claude Fable 5.1 is more likely than Claude Fable 5 to rewrite an entire text file rather than make a targeted edit. The resulting file is usually the same, but unless the file is short or most of it is changing, a rewrite costs more output tokens and time. The instruction brings Claude Fable 5.1 back in line with Claude Fable 5 for small and medium changes.
> The number of tokens used to edit files is best minimized, all else being equal. Therefore, when it will not affect the end result, try to surgically edit a file rather than rewrite the entire thing.
https://support.claude.com/en/articles/15363606
My work is mostly on the Nvidia b200, which apparently gets flagged as non-standard.
Opus 5 works, but sometimes I do wonder if it's surreptitiously trying to sabotage the efforts -- possibly deliberately, but more likely by something like Fable's initial launch, which did come with secretly degraded performance when detecting kernel work. Anthropic was open at the time that such a mechanism existed, but disabled it due to backlash. More likely than not, this is just paranoia on my end...
It's one thing to generate some code and ship it, but it's another when your developers don't understand said code and it brings down production. If the model refuses to assist debugging the problem because it triggers some safety mechanism, you might be fucked.
Can't believe they haven't at least figured out better messaging. If we take them at their word, it's hard not to read it as a messiah complex, that they think they're the only ones capable or worthy of making these decisions. I don't believe them, but I wouldn't be surprised if the articulated reason is a version of "distillation is a safety risk because we might lose the race".
Plus, completely deaf to the recent OpenAI-HF hack incident. Recall, defenders were categorically unable to use western frontier models in their response.
I was originally going to complain about the chem and bio guards still being too onerous, but I'll admit the projects Fable 5 categorically refused to work on are now usable, at least not rejecting on first prompt because the word "virology" was in a git commit (absolutely serious, in one repo it triggered on literally any prompt, eventually traced to the system prompt loading git commit history). Still, them trying to get into the biomed business while walling off the capabilities to the public reeks. Why sell the segments that are actually valuable if you can capture the value yourself!
Can't say I had such troubles actually, no. Their position can be extended to any and every model provider just fine, it does not single them out specifically.
Surely there's a less hyperbolic and ad hominem-y way to take issue with this? I don't think following up a critique about ineffective messaging with one centered around a demagogue reach is particularly compelling at least.
Their argument is that the model provider owns the safety story, and that as such, they consider the extraction of capabilities (which washes the guardrails) as a failure on their side. If this makes you think of personality traits, I'm not sure you're engaging with their position earnestly. It most certainly doesn't leave me any more equipped to disagree with them either.
If you instead highlighted how awfully convenient it is, however...
https://artificialanalysis.ai/#intelligence-efficiency-tabs
What I do see in the comments: subjective improvement in text generation, possibly lower cost, some optimism about code generation, but some skepticism too.
I use coding agents. To me they are very useful. But what I spend on them isn't going to support trillions of dollars in investment.
I summarized each into new fable 5.1 sessions, and both seem to have arrived at reasonable solutions that only need a few nits revised before they are commit worthy.
But yes, we might end up hitting the issue of "most jobs aren't solving hard problems" increasingly. The bigger potential benefit is higher trustworthiness, reliability/thoroughness, and squishy human things; people will likely continue to pay large premiums for those. "Solve it well and save time, long term". Those can be harder to see on a benchmark.
I get your point, but we can only have groundbreaking leaps once in a blue moon. That doesn’t mean incremental improvements aren’t useful.
The problem frontier LLMs face is that they are hundreds of billions to trillions of dollars short of finding that market that's big enough to sustain capex commitments and further product development. If they don't find something groundbreaking, they are going to have a very painful year next year, maybe even starting this year for some of them and their data center partners.
Anthropic and OpenAI can't afford to live in a world where LLMs are at or near the top of their S curve.
I'm not an emdash hater but this isn't how you use them. It should be a comma.
I went to the grocery store, and bought tomatoes.
I went to the grocery store---and bought a Ferrari.
The second one has a bit more of a dramatic pause.
"Eats, Shoots, and Leaves" is a fun book with a great chapter about the dash with many good examples.
Going back to Anthropic's post:
> They’re the world’s most advanced models for coding and knowledge work---and their research capabilities offer an early glimpse of how AI models will contribute to scientific progress.
The first thing directly implies and flows smoothly into the next---or would, if not for the awkward emdash. There is no discontinuity, no twist or shift in context, no implied question and provided answer, no punchline. It's just distracting.
In the past I watched and saw everything the model did, not a lot got past me. Today it does A TON of work while i'm busy on other tasks. It also has extensive access to my computer, other computers on my network, my internet. It's really helpful when you give it a lot of resources, but right now I have very autonomous, very smart agent running around more or less unattended with a lot of resources.
How does this work if it doesn’t change the output?
In cases where the output has low entropy - eg, you've asked a model to repeat some input text verbatim, or to answer a question that has exactly one correct answer - there will be no randomness for the watermark to hide in, so the output will effectively not be watermarked. Code lives somewhere in the middle: it generally has less entropy-per-token than prose, so would need more tokens to reach a given level of detectability.
There are lots of ways to restrict output samples. The simplest conceptually would be to just use a restricted pool of PRNG seeds, but in practice there are more sophisticated constructions to try to build in robustness to minor edits, allow detectability without needing the original weights and prompt, etc. Google's SynthID paper (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-024-08025-4) is a good starting point if you want to understand a recent production-ready method (or you can just ask an LLM to explain it to you).
Toy proof-of-concept: Anthropic owns a secret key which is a coin-flip Bernoulli random variable K with p=1/2. You are paying Anthropic to give you X, a Bernoulli random variable with p=1/2. Anthropic changes from their old strategy, "draw from K, then throw it away and flip a coin, each time you ask for a sample", to their new strategy, "draw from K and send it to you". You cannot observe the difference, but Anthropic knows K and so they know when you are repeating its outputs. (Obviously this is a toy example; in reality the distribution is vastly more complicated than Bernoulli, and Anthropic isn't just storing some model outputs to use as K but instead is computing a correlation with a known pseudorandomness source.)
Before: "He leaped at the chance" - 33%. "Jumped at the opportunity" - 66%.
After: "He leaped at the chance" - 33%. "Jumped at the opportunity" - 66%.
But if you refresh your response from Anthropic 100 times:
Before: "Jumped at the opportunity" He leaped at the chance" "Jumped at the opportunity"
After: "He leaped at the chance" "He leaped at the chance" "He leaped at the chance"
The second one is detectable as being watermarked.
davmre has a good explanation that's more in-depth.
Then why does it have separate datapoints for Terminal Bench, and score higher? Something doesn't add up here??
Note it may not even be actual performance, typically in most benchmarks the model would be scored zero for refusing a task just the same as not completing it, so it could just be the Fable's stronger safeguards is just making it refuse more or perhaps even drop down to Opus.
i try to look through the docs, but i didn't find where they said its only for API
is it in the system card?
really hope not, that change the only positive part in this release
Why is it that the voice models in Claude and ChatGPT have a perfectly normal style with barely any "AI smell", while the writing models are so obviously recognizable as AI?
The answer is likely that models underlying the voice modes are (post) trained differently. If so, then why can't the writing model be similarly trained? Presumably they haven't found a way to train them to be both "smart" (i.e. solve tasks etc) and pleasant to talk to?
This has never happened to me before, but if this is normal behavior, Fable 5.1 is essentially unusable.
I jumped when I saw a mention about "writing style improvements" so I gave it a try on a recent feature in rcmd [0]. I prompted Fable 5.1 to find these wordings and propose simpler plain language.
It took every string including the ones I already rewrote by hand, and proposed even more weird LLM speak. Like for "Left Command conflict detected" it proposed "This keyboard can't tell left from right".It's a very capable coding agent, but I can't understand how it can be so bad at writing. Where are all these verbal tics coming from and why is it so hard to get rid of them?
[0] https://lowtechguys.com/rcmd
It's copywriting. They fed these models the internet, which is loaded with it.
This style provides a high entropy basis distribution, so they can from a bigger pool to pick from and phrases to watermark the sentence.
You have much bigger variation of this idiotic phrases and words, which states a simple fact in that sophisticated and twisted manner.
It’s a side effect of post-training for effectiveness and efficiency at technical tasks.
Over time the models learn to pack as much information as possible into their available context window, because that’s one way to increase the effective intelligence.
Humans do this too with industry jargon, dense tech-talk, etc.
We have a limited capacity so packing it densely maximises what we can do with it.
If you’ve ever heard a “non technical” manager complain about the terminology in an IT meeting — this is why.
But who has both the compute power and the motivation to do such a thing?
I guess I'll just continue rewriting the UI one word at a time for the time being.
I once caught Fable 5 spinning its wheels on a rendering issue, which evaporated 90% of my usage in a single prompt. I could never let Fable run free attached to a credit card without staring at it the whole time.
In such a context also a coding agent has it much easier. But establishing that or adding something beyond what's already safely established, here high intelligence models really pay off
When I discuss something new with an agent I want to feel like it genuinely gets what I mean, which has only started feeling true with fable 5 for me.
> same input and output prices, with cache reads at a quarter of the cost
This should impact any long-running agent since subsequent calls can benefit from cached reads for previous transcripts.
They were _temporarily_ increased in May by 50% [1]. They continued to extend them through July and August (admittedly, their messaging around this has just been a complete mess and they frequently pushed the deadline back as it approached).
So, now they are giving you a 25% quota increase compared to where things originally stood in May.
So, let me ask you this: assuming you knew that the 50% quota increase was temporary all along, would you then have complained about Anthropic restoring things back to the original limit?
[1] https://www.anthropic.com/news/higher-limits-spacex
Are they going to try the banned for export for a week marketing move too?
Oh, the halcyon days of three months ago when a new flagship from a frontier lab generated excitement rather than a shrug.
Having lived through Covid, this doesn't sound so good to me.
I am using Claude and Claude code for my own amateur history project. I'm enjoying how it constantly reaches dead ends, and I can reframe the question and get more results. I am starting to get concerned that AI and me are so compatible, that I might not be a human at all...
I also like that, because I'm too lazy to write stuff up, Claude code can keep the current state of research published on my site. It makes running a hobby site a dream. "I just found these pictures. Add them to the site for me". And up they go, resized and all. What a dream of a way to work. "Some of links in this article are dead, run through them and check, and see if you can get an archive link for me if they don't". It's like sending a Teams message to my PA.... which I don't have in real life
Anthropic accidentally over-billed my account, and when I reached out to the support bot, it downgraded my account to a Free account. It’s been impossible to get it resolved and I have almost $200 held hostage.
I don’t want to do a charge back. I’m one of the main advocates for Claude Code at work, I use this subscription to try out new features before it’s available at work.
The whole experience has been illuminating about our dependencies on these AI companies.
I am disappointed in how anthropic handles billing, and is using AI sloppily for customer service around here. Very unprofessional, and at this point since its been well known and shared, it also is feeling unethical.
Anyone know who the ZDR special treatment is available to?
Interesting behavior. The docs also provided recommended prompt [1] to mitigate this behavior if undesired.
Wondering if anyone has encountered it yet?
[1]: https://platform.claude.com/docs/en/build-with-claude/prompt...
I would be interested in whether someone has done research here on these things as it seems a fairly complicated function to work out, and use case dependent. (?)
In some sense an expired kv cache is basically like an expensive cache hit, so your compaction token threshold should come in. Ideally claude code should allow you to vary the autocompaction threshold to vary with time since last token, but it doesn't of course. This perhaps suggests that someone should manage claude code through their own intermediary agent who manages these sorts of rules.
Lastly, I strongly suspect that anthropic isn't offering this price cut out of the kindness of their hearts. I am sure that they are to some extent banking on people not reacting to their price cut and leaving their autocompaction thresholds unchanged.
[edit - looks like the discount is only for the api, so they still don't give a rats ass about subs!]
I still think that a major problem is that biological processes are not “fast” as coding, but they are verifiable. If during post processing we are able to give enough harness to test and verify this kind of environment (maybe via simulation and real data) we will for sure achieve incredible performance also in this domain.
• [...] Rebuilding the top-level system prompt or tools array between requests in the same conversation.
Many people unknowingly do this (at a high cost to them because of the cache busts), this change will finally force them to stop.
Especially if you're generating your system prompt via a template that can change mid conversation, it's so easy to fall into this trap.
Does anyone reading this have additional knowledge or insight on this?
Maybe it'll come out eventually but they don't even include it on some of their comparison benchmarks anymore, so I figure its very low priority for them.
That's what we've done, migrated workflows away from Haiku and Sonnet. I actually think this is not a crazy position because these lower models have so much competition from Grok, OpenAI, DeepSeek, and about 20 other labs with really solid models in the Haiku to Sonnet range. So what is the point of Anthropic competing in these spaces where everything is going towards zero cost?
It's currently priced 33% above Gemini 3.7 Flash, and several multiples of 5.6 Luna.
This seems to point to them having achieved some kind of optimization in attention mechanism perhaps along the lines of DeepSeek V4, which had a similarly high discount between cache input and normal input.
In real world use, the savings should be quite noticeable. For example, you can now use the model at 800K tokens context window at the same cost efficiency as the previous model at 200K tokens context window.
> *Fewer progress updates during long tool runs.*
> The model writes less user-facing text between tool calls, especially at higher effort. Set thinking.display to "updates" (beta) to receive the progress updates it does write, and remove any prompt line that tells it to hold findings for the final response.
Generally once an exploit chain is described, developing the exploit is trivial.
If you're so inclined, discover the exploits using Fable 5.1 and then give that exploit to a model that doesn't have such compunctions (e.g. local LLM or an uncensored cloud model / model that's easier to jailbreak). I don't think Anthropic is really mitigating here anything in the real world other than PR narratives where media can report "Anthropic's model was used to develop the latest cyber attack".
When paying by the token, don't the labs have a strong incentive to make the model as verbose as possible?
And my 5 hour window was due to be reset in 2 hours (barely used), now its in 5 hours - so this reset effectively gives me 1 less 5 hour reset for this weekly cycle.
This is interesting. I wonder if customers will be allowed to create an auto expiry for their own data to prevent future subpoenas. That’d be a treasure trove for discovery.
What exactly is the premium that you're getting for paying these prices?
I tried the old fable and it didn’t seem worth paying for. It still made errors like Opus does so I might as well use the included model…
AI to AI doc share: sure, do what you please.
AI to human: please make it legible and flowly.
example, "Every thinking block records which model produced it, and it's preserved in one direction only: Claude Fable 5.1 reads earlier models' thinking blocks, and no earlier model reads Claude Fable 5.1's." is a very Claude-isk way of writing. Choppy, long, and lacking flow.
OK, I think that's what they meant when they suggested reduced extra promo usage will not sting this much.
That seems unfortunate for 3rd party integrations that expect stable output - what that really necessary ?
I have been happy with Fable 5, it has done great work for me so far. Very excited to try out Fable 5.1 and see what differences and improvements there are.
I wonder to what extent this will make the automatic Fable-to-Opus downgrade give worse results.
*Some might see a parallel with the old game Adventure, in which wording differences like "twisty little passages" and "little twisty passages" were used to build a maze of room descriptions, with the same meaning but still distinguishable to the attentive player.
On top of that, recent versions of Claude had a ton of tools added, and all those tools use up significantly more context/usage than before, so the moment you open a Claude session you are already using a lot more (I forget how much more) usage ... just to do the same exact thing you did last week.
What would you suggest as an alternative if I'm happy with the harness?
Guys, listen to your feedback please. I hadn't used OpenAI products in quite a while until this issue came around. They seem to have MUCH smarter safeguards than Anthropic does.
They show this off, but artificial analysis contradicts the statement. Fable 5 cost $3.14 per task, while 5.1 cost $3.69 -- around a 15% jump in pricing.
https://artificialanalysis.ai/
These, IMO, are marginal improvements for a more expensive model. I stopped using Claude ~3 months back; its outputs are too jargoned, it makes architectural decisions that are not right, and it's incredibly pricey for what it is. Each decision it makes, it acts as if a problem as major as world hunger has been solved. And the overly verbose code comments, strange commit descriptions, duplicate code, and slop it generates -- which I know is not specific to Fable -- is just too much for me.
I found the best is to use something like Deepseek V4 Flash -- with a fast TPS provider -- and work on the code myself. For agentic work with computer use, GLM 5.3 flash with Hermes Desktop works well.
Jane Street is a partner? How sad indeed. Anthropic could front run them because they leak all the data.
how?
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-024-08025-4
Curious to see how Astra does.
Sounds like some serious nonsense. "Tell me you want the government to retain access to my data without saying it explicitly."
Really? Interesting choice. Pretty much every CLAUDE.md file I have starts with something about Hemingway, terseness and treating every word you use like you're carving it on your own back, but different strokes for different folks. I suppose I haven't heard from anyone who enjoys how wordy Claude is because they aren't done writing their post yet.
Unfortunately, for them.
This directly contradicts what Anthropic is presenting here. Yes it scores higher but that's to be expected from a new release. It's the opposite of what OpenAI has been doing which was reducing costs, increasing efficiency.
Fable 5: https://artificialanalysis.ai/models/claude-fable-5 Fable 5.1: https://artificialanalysis.ai/models/claude-fable-5-1
On high it gets the same score as 5 with max effort while costing only half as much.
Moving stuff out the API into prompt engineering is obviously less reliable but necessary for progression to 'actual intelligence'. Will be interesting to see if it really is solid.
On the Fable 5.2 eval summary, Opus 5 only beats Fable on SWE-bench multilingual and multimodal.
I primarily use the models via interactive sessions enhanced with custom tools and skill. For that Opus 5's benchmark superiority has not materialized into greater productivity and frankly has been quite a let down.
The outputs are too often unreadable even after adding recommended prompts. There is an ongoing problem with the heron_brook system prompt affecting orchestration. [1]
I've used Opus 4.8 since the second week Opus 5 was released.
Over this time, Fable 5 has been reliably fantastic. Both in planning and direct execution on complex changes across code and infra.
I'm a bit surprised that there doesn't (seem) to be a section discussing ~performance across different modalities. This system card and blog post too-often default to an API-based use case when the gander primarily experience Anthropic's models via interactive sessions.
I understand waiting to comment until Opus 5.1 is available and handles these problems, though I am hopeful that Anthropic will confront the elephant in the room on Opus 5's failure to delivery great interactive sessions and the widespread negative feedback on the release.
It would show the org is paying attention, taking steps to balance model evals between interactive and API use. Also, some empathy for customers that wasted time trying to make opus 5 work for them.
[1] https://github.com/anthropics/claude-code/issues/80988
Did you mean Fable 5.1, or do you have access to the next (unreleased) version of Fable?
... with the condition that you store 100% of your data and make it available to the US government and possible others.
I don't use Fable for a ton of implementation work, but I use it a lot for planning, so maybe that's related to it. For planning though, I've had a very good experience with Fable and implementing with Opus.
I'd guesstimate that ~80% of the time I thought I was using Fable, I wasn't actually. It's also led me to just... not even try, and just start with Opus regardless.
I've found Fable unusable; not because it's bad, but because it... can't be used.
FWIW, most of my code only encounters security concepts as standard implementation of best practices. I'm not in a security centric position.
“sure thing boss”
——
“Hey Fable, review this unsafe win32 rust code”
“Potentially dangerous request, falling back to Opus”
—-
Every damn time, ironic because the unsafe win32 code can be generated by fable in the same session.
Maddening.
We have access to Fable at our company on our enterprise plans and most of us rarely run into an issue.
Obviously this is gonna vary a lot with what technical domain you work in which is why its important when talking about the classifiers that people specify exactly what types of workloads they were seeing failures with.
It did help with some worldbuilding for my book (it wasn't incredible which gives me some hope for writers). So far opus 4.8 is the most reasonable model.
[1] https://www.ft.com/content/5ee49718-c258-4f01-aa32-7e5b76ae5...
Ironically one of their demos is speeding up inference - do us normies get to do that with Anthropic tech??
About a month or two ago, they must have tightened the black list on bio topics as it became more willing to process requests without visibly downgrading to Opus.
I get punted down to Opus 5 occasionally (for security-adjacent things) but that's pretty rare.
I do think probably ralph looping a binary locally first is going to be best to get 100% recovery of types and function behaviors then letting a smarter model churn the final steps.
In general, if Fable isn't blocking you, there's a high chance a lower tier model would work fine.
I have noticed sometimes it likes to gaslight itself into thinking that everything its doing is allowed or allowable, I saw that it thought the game I was reverse engineering was running on a private server (it was not) so it assumed it had permission to do anything lol.
And the lack of thought traces make it utterly useless.
Done. The average human lifespan is now zero.
But eventually AI will cure something, unironically. It may be Claude, or another AI company.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48838228
After months of trouble dealing with KYC and procurement I finally got CVP for my security org and today I found out that CVP (which is what removes cyber safeguards) does not apply to Fable…
So yeah, unless you’re a Project Glasswing member, there’s no using Fable (which with Glasswing is Mythos) for security work… Absolutely useless…
Didn’t they just sign some “we must use AI for cyber defense before the bad guys do” and then they artificially cap us by not allowing Cyber-unlocked Fable…
Sigh…
... but some is definitely Anthropic, so I'm not trying to let them off the hook; I'm just pointing out that the government is partly responsible.