Back to News
Advertisement
Advertisement

⚡ Community Insights

Discussion Sentiment

62% Positive

Analyzed from 2454 words in the discussion.

Trending Topics

#holmes#male#scam#more#founder#trailer#female#gender#elizabeth#actually

Discussion (120 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

xyzelementabout 4 hours ago
I have a distinctive memory about Theranos from business school - so circa 2013 a few years before it blew up.

Some professor was going on and on about Holmes for being a young, female, founder. It stood out at the moment as weird because the praise was separate from success or outcomes or like brilliant science. It was all about the identity: gender and age.

I wonder if the reason the scam went so far as it did because it was "shaped" exactly like what people were looking for, like what they were told the future of STEM was supposed to look like.

tdb7893about 1 hour ago
The general scam of unrealistic promises then under-delivering is such a well worn trope that while gender surely played a part in it (as it is a big part of social perceptions in general) I hesitate to blame it here. I think for anyone who has been in tech for a while it doesn't take an imagination to picture a man doing pretty much the same thing
embedding-shapeabout 1 hour ago
Yeah, the same is maybe more obvious outside of HN, but engineer/tech companies often play the same trope but on "brilliant and smart people but bit naive/rose-tinted views that couldn't unintentionally harm anyone even if they tried", like how media showcased Zuckerberg initially, before everyone realized his true colors.
watwut34 minutes ago
They still say it about Sam Bankman Friendman and that failed situation awareness fund dude that worked for him.

They will even argue, forever, that the situation awareness did not failed or folded, because being margin called does not count when bright smart young person gets margin called.

noir_lord24 minutes ago
Musk as well among others.
etchalon17 minutes ago
I mean, plenty of men have done the same thing. No imagination required.
glimsheabout 4 hours ago
It sure did. And it backfired in a way that could make future female innovators guilty by association. I can see investors asking themselves "That girl looks sharp, but is she another Elizabeth Holmes?"
Mattrou31 minutes ago
FranzFerdiNaNabout 3 hours ago
Plenty of male-led businesses also turned out to be scams, and yet no one goes 'that guy looks sharp, but he is male so seems suspicious'. Which only proofs how deep sexism is rooted.
OroPlaabout 3 hours ago
It's just pattern recognition at work. None of the male-led scams have "being male" as a talking point trying to sell the scam, so it's about as notable as a scam founder wearing black shoes.

But now "female led" has entered the conversation as something to recognize a scam by. Whenever it comes up again this memory will lit up and make people wary.

lelanthran16 minutes ago
> Plenty of male-led businesses also turned out to be scams, and yet no one goes 'that guy looks sharp, but he is male so seems suspicious'.

The scam was sold on her gender ("successful female entrepreneur"), so unfortunately it's going to be part of the heuristic.

Male-led scams aren't sold on the gender of the scammer; gender is completely ignored (No one describes those as "a successful male entrepreneur").

Unfortunately, the gender sale was a big part of the scam. I'm looking at many male-led scams, and they did not sell it based on the gender of the scammer.

> Which only proofs how deep sexism is rooted.

No, it only proves that you have ideology deeply rooted. I believe you see sexism everywhere. The type of person you just want to say "oookay, huh, is sexism here, in the room with us?"

xyzelementabout 3 hours ago
The point is that anything subject to hype is also at a greater risk of being a scam.

If we were desperate for red-headed founders then the risk of any given red-head riding the wave of hype rather than substance is higher than at baseline.

That's the point being made. Your comment about male led misses it because there's currently no hype about male led. Though I can see it coming back.

philipallstarabout 3 hours ago
> Which only proofs how deep sexism is rooted.

Only if you're determined to look for it.

No one promotes companies, or gives special grants, or runs special funding groups, or special networking breakfasts, for men. It's only for women. Women are currently viewed as intrinsically a good thing to run a company, and it's a problem if your company has fewer than 50% women. It's all about identity and not competence. She rode that wave.

Men ride other waves, but specifically not that one. Unless you count trans women in sports. Or Tim Walz.

mvdwoordabout 3 hours ago
No one markets ‘male founder’ as a reason to trust the business. Once gender is framed as a virtue, people start asking whether that claim actually means anything.
JuniperMesosabout 3 hours ago
No one thinks that the number of males participating in business is too low, and that it is socially-beneficial and morally-important to promote male-run businesses.
Gravityloss41 minutes ago
https://xkcd.com/385/

This sort of thing is really hard to avoid. If you've ever spent time as somehow very different in a social setting, you can see this happening all the time. Even in positive ways.

Eddy_Viscosity2about 3 hours ago
Scamming as a male can actually improve your reputation. Donald Trump is currently the president of the united states despite years of ripping people off. If Bernie Madoff could run as a republican senator, I'd given him decent odds to win.
micromacrofootabout 3 hours ago
I inherently don't trust old white guys so i'm not sure that's true
olalondeabout 1 hour ago
Reminiscent of what happened with Jason Arday[0].

[0] https://whyevolutionistrue.com/2026/08/04/the-bizarre-tale-o...

epistasisabout 1 hour ago
Of all the ways Theranos was a scam, the gender thing was pretty much the last. She was wealthy, stacked the board with all the wrong sorts of people but the right sorts of people for corrupt contracts.
torgoguys28 minutes ago
Yes, my daughter and I still will randomly say "worlds youngest self-made female billionaire" to each other and laugh when we hear someone use a phase that is only true because of an excessive number of qualifiers.
ktharticabout 1 hour ago
At the time women were (and still are) underdogs in STEM, so it's no surprise your professor would want to highlight that. For all the rest of were aware, she really was a successful health-tech founder
rzwitserloot28 minutes ago
It's a wider take on [Goodhart's Law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law):

- young female founders running successful businesses appear to be exceptionally skilled because they have been fighting against the current for their entire life. And the future of that company is double-boosted: They have an exceptionally good founder at the helm, and that founder is going to get even more free media coverage than they normally would.

- ... therefore if I see a young female founder, say no more, I will extrapolate from historic facts and conclude that the company is highly likely to be successful.

- ... and Goodhart's Law kicks in. Whether it is because those with intent to defraud realize what they need to do / they were always around but are now no longer filtered out, or it's simply because the Constanza-liars (they believe their own lies) are not being reality checked anymore doesn't matter: The measurement tool 'is a young female founder' has lost all its predictive power.

- even worse, if the relevant parts of society (the editors of financial newspapers, the bigwigs at investment corps) don't sniff the change in the wind fast enough, we get a new oversimplified yardstick: Someone is going to conclude 'might as well treat every young female founder as a fraud, because statistically they probably are!'

I think your innate sense here is the right answer: The original sin here is treating the identity of the founder as the only significant aspect. Not a heck of a lot of inquiry and skepticism about the promise of Theranos was required to start unravelling that whole mess.

martythemaniakabout 1 hour ago
Have you ever wondered the same about other scams? Who else do you think was shaped "correctly"? Also, isn't affinity fraud most types of fraud?
tootieabout 1 hour ago
I remember the endless glazing of Sam Bankman-Fried being pretty similar. Pretty sure they engineered it that way. Sell the idea of success. Trump did the exact same thing.
analog8374about 3 hours ago
It's like reading the title of the post and skipping reading the actual post. She embodied a popular identity, offered a popularly STEMmy business plan, and the rest was skipped.

Word to wise entrepreneurs.

jgalt212about 2 hours ago
Somewhat relevant from The Economist.

> Woke 1 was about identity. Woke 2 is about class

https://www.economist.com/united-states/2026/09/03/woke-1-wa...

zeckalpha38 minutes ago
Or the other way: The reason the scam was caught was because people were looking for flaws. Society gives a lot of grace to male scammers.
olalonde31 minutes ago
The scam was caught due to a whistleblower, not because people were looking for flaws.
jiaosdjfabout 4 hours ago
I watched the entire trailer fully believing that Nathan Fielder had managed to find the most unhinged uncanny look-alike actress to play Elizabeth Holmes.

This trailer was so good that I would have been fully prepared to watch a 2 hour dramatised mockumentary about Theranos.

Finding out that this was really Elizabeth Holmes was a huge shock

sschuellerabout 4 hours ago
Yet people who met her were stupid enough to think she is some kind of genius and gave her millions of dollars.

Sometimes I think if Charles Manson started a startup instead of killing people he would have had millions in investments and be praised as some sort of wunder kind...

covercashabout 3 hours ago
Or Charles Manson could weasel his way into existing startups, claim them as his own, become the richest man in the world, AND kill so many more people than he ever thought possible!
timcobbabout 2 hours ago
He could have done this if he was from a more privileged background for sure.
aa-jvabout 3 hours ago
>were stupid enough to think she is some kind of genius and gave her millions of dollars.

The tech industry is rife with such suckers. We wouldn't have the wealth we have without them.

OroPlaabout 3 hours ago
Who was it again that said money is thrown out the window without any concern, you just have to stand below the right window? It was true then and it is true now. Really helps if the money you are throwing out isn't your own, too.
jiaosdjfabout 2 hours ago
All founders and CEOs are like this, to the point that when I meet a person in leadership who clearly isn't a sociopath my default reaction is to assume that they're not successful.

The only reason I'm somewhat confident that I am not a sociopath is because I am still frequently presented business ideas that make me think "WTF how did you even think of that and why am I so angry that it's probably going to work"

timcobbabout 2 hours ago
> who clearly isn't a sociopath

Or is a sociopath, just not *clearly*.

tantalorabout 2 hours ago
Hot take: She is a genius.

Just not the kind of genius that can invent new products or lead a successful company.

If she had partnered with a competent engineer and CEO, Theranos might still be in business.

The company wasn't doomed from the start. It began with a real vision.

sarchertechabout 2 hours ago
Yeah but the “vision” was just the ideas of a kid with 2 semesters of college classes under her belt saying “what if”. It was never going to work. She had tons of competent engineers working for her. The basic idea was and is unworkable.

If she had come up with an actual good idea with only 2 semesters of experience then sure you could say she was a genius. Even if she couldn’t successfully build a company. But the most you say is that she is a really good conman.

wavemode38 minutes ago
Same exact thought when this trailer came across my feed. "Oh, who did A24 get to play Holmes, she looks familiar somehow." hahaha
sevenseacatabout 4 hours ago
wait, it was actually her? I thought it was also some uncanny valley magic
bizzleDawgabout 2 hours ago
After the complete mind melting of 2 seasons of "the rehearsal", this was my exact path too
dwrobertsabout 3 hours ago
Although I’m fully expecting actor shenanigans in the full documentary, I think the section in the trailer might actually be her for real
seabombsabout 4 hours ago
Love everything Nathan Fielder does. The trailer is awesome.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GGJSRFWALTI

embedding-shapeabout 3 hours ago
What an incredible trailer. So simple but so communicative and almost gave me goosebumps, very well made.

Seeing her like that gave me flashbacks to Mark Zuckerberg before he seemingly trained away that empty stare he and others share.

drcongoabout 4 hours ago
It's like a horror movie trailer, only scarier.
mark_l_watsonabout 2 hours ago
I watched a 90 second clip from this film earlier today: Holmes unblinking asking ‘Why would I deceive you…’ Really strange stuff. I have to admit that I watched the clip a second time.
vintagedave28 minutes ago
For those who are experts on body language, non-verbal communication, psychological communication tricks, etc -- what on earth are we seeing in that trailer?
nlabout 4 hours ago
> But the more Holmes talks to Fielder, the more he teases out her unhinged rationale, which is: The device works fine! We just had to figure out that pesky chemistry stuff! The strange thing is that Holmes has such a corporate mindset that she treats the chemistry stuff…that hadn’t been invented yet…as just another glitchy small problem that could easily be solved

The difference between science and engineering right there...

s_devabout 4 hours ago
You mean marketing and engineering.
TheOtherHobbesabout 4 hours ago
Management and engineering.
runsfromfireabout 3 hours ago
Owners and employees
NoboruWatayaabout 1 hour ago
She had a science/engineering background, more than marketing. Engineers can be frauds too.
qseraabout 1 hour ago
Marketing by definition is fraudulent because it is all about creating a fake need.
dragochatabout 3 hours ago
she'd be the perfect CEO of a BigAI corpo - as opposed to betting on humans randomly discovering new chemistry in predictable ammount of time, betting on neural networks offering a brute-force way to (super)human congnition is actualy "saner" - I mean, we know from _evolution_ that in a universe with out _physics_ brute forcing the problem of building intelligence with neural-network like architecture "very likely works"...

now this thought just made me have more sympathy for Sam Altman (there can actually be much worse ppl out there...)

epihelixabout 2 hours ago
I don't want to necessarily claim that Altman is worse than Holmes, but I don't think the rank order is entirely clear either.

An AI CEO was absolutely Holmes' calling. You can only imagine.

ungovernableCatabout 2 hours ago
Elizabeth: my company will enable a full quick and cheap blood test from just a finger prick

Amodei: AI will cure cancer

Elizabeth wasn’t ambitious and visionary enough for the current era.

owebmasterabout 3 hours ago
If Sam Altman was actually named Elizabeth Altman the OpenAI CEO would be in jail.
derektankabout 3 hours ago
People seem to forget that Sunny Balwani also went to prison over the Theranos fraud.
rcxdudeabout 3 hours ago
There are many issues with OpenAI but the two situations are pretty significantly different.
dragochatabout 3 hours ago
was about to reply, but... this has more layers than a (rotten) onion - I'll just restrain myself form doing so :P
jiaosdjfabout 2 hours ago
And yet somehow what she did still isn't as bad as what every private equity form on Wall Street gets away with daily.

There's no excuse for defrauding investors, but at least the "aim" was to produce a product that, if it actually had worked, would have been medically revolutionary. I don't even believe that she went in on scam from the start, she must have at least genuinely believed, no matter how nonchalant, that there was going to be a product - otherwise how would she possibly expect to get away with it?

Blackrock, Citadel, KKR etc - all they do is buy up actual businesses that provide actual products and services, by using the most predatory and immoral "leveraged buyout" technique and then stripping its assets and leasing them back like some demented parasitic worm

rcxdudeabout 3 hours ago
How so? In my experience academics are far more likely to sweep big practical issues under the rug because they're primarily concerned with being something working one so they can write a paper, as opposed to making a product that has to work in practice.

(It is surprisingly common to have delusions about the scale of engineering problems in management, which causes problems even when it doesn't explode into outright fraud. I've had management insist on pursuing a project that was already quite risky and difficult in its own right but which also needed a technology that just didn't exist yet to actually be usable by customers in the field: mostly on the back of some theoretical calculations by some acadamics that masked big underlying problems. The issue was pretty obvious but just subtle enough to be easy to convince yourself it wasn't that hard)

ddmfabout 4 hours ago
There was some major tension in the trailer - I can't believe that's actually Elizabeth Holmes, but seeing her I can see how she managed to win over so many - she is very intense.
saimiamabout 4 hours ago
Who’s “Bobby” mentioned in the article? Did the writer just mix up Billy Evans with Bobby?
petesergeantabout 4 hours ago
It does seem that way, half-way through they switch from "Billy" to "Bobby"
qseraabout 2 hours ago
After this, there was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meredith_Perry of UBeam
qoezabout 3 hours ago
"That’s part of its appeal — it’s a one-of-a-kind reality-TV-as-hangout-movie psychodrama circus"

This is fable level unreadable to me

moffkalastabout 3 hours ago
At least it's not opus level unreadable amirite?
goodJobWalrusabout 2 hours ago
Who is Bobby the article keeps talking about? Her business partner's name was Sunny, and her husband is Billy.
aeve89017 minutes ago
Bobby-Sunny=Billy

it's an embeddings things, you know

Advertisement
lapcatabout 2 hours ago
Fielder's "The Rehearsal" on HBO was madly brilliant.
chasebankabout 1 hour ago
In particular, season 2 is truly a work of art. As you said, it is just flat out brilliant. If you haven't watched the final episode of nathan for you (season 4 episode 7), watch it. it's equally fantastic.
elgertamabout 2 hours ago
Holmes seems to have the Harvard Business (MBA) mindset: science, R&D, engineering are just results to squeeze out of recalcitrant practitioners. Any failure in those domains is evidence only of the scientists' or engineers' refusal to align themselves with the Vision.

Despite not even finishing undergrad, she adopted this persona so naturally, including the black turtleneck and a Zuck-esque vocal inflection, that due diligence apparently defenestrated itself. Phyllis Gardner is the unsung hero who tried to warn the world, but the MBA mass-delusion was too strong.

joebigabout 2 hours ago
Elizabeth Holmes Thanksgiving Visit: Family Time in Prison

https://www.memesita.com/elizabeth-holmes-thanksgiving-visit...

And wtf is even a "prison camp?"

sim04fulabout 2 hours ago
This looks like another homerun for a24
DarmokTanagraabout 3 hours ago
Imagine a world where we held Musk to the same standard as Holmes.
azan_34 minutes ago
I get that musk frequently underdelivers and has gone insane recently, but what he’s done with spacex and Tesla is genuinely impressive. So I’m not sure what the hell do you mean, what exact standard?
iammjmabout 3 hours ago
Wow that is a one scary intense trailer. Hard to believe we are not witnessing some kind of serious psychopathology right there