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Discussion Sentiment

78% Positive

Analyzed from 2097 words in the discussion.

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#nike#shoes#more#brand#hoka#yeezy#shoe#running#market#athletic

Discussion (54 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

nemothekidabout 2 hours ago
Nike's destruction over the past 5 years was really surprised and until I read up about the whole "direct to consumer" fiasco it really helped me understand another trend I was a bit confused about.

About 2-3 years, it felt like, out of nowhere everyone was wearing Hoka and On brand sneakers. In my entire life it felt like the Nike/Adidas duopoly was unbreakable, and then it felt suddenly that Hoka was everywhere.

While Hoka probably executed extremely well, I imagine it was an incredibly lucky position Hoka found themselves in when all those retailers had to replace Nike with something. Maybe even allbirds would be in a better position today had they launched 3-4 years later.

Edit: I just looked it up and it seems both Hoka and On were founded before Allbirds. Seems allbirds imploded (~2021), just as Nike was ceding all their retail space (also around 2021). Had they had another year, maybe they wouldn't have had to pivot into an AI datacenter company.

milchek21 minutes ago
Is this a US thing? In Australia all sports/shoe retailers have been stocking Nike the whole time. If I understand correctly folks are saying in the US Nike gave up its retail shelf space in favour of their own stores and online?
allthetimeabout 1 hour ago
Allbirds never made serious running shoes. Hoka grew out of the ultra running scene and broadened their offering.. On are European and went hard with their unusual sole design.
omnimus20 minutes ago
Whats surprising to me is that all the brands you mentioned are just so ugly and simply not cool. Nike tries to position itself as Apple of sports but it probably doesn't work that well outside of high tech market because there are still many brands doing the high end at leas as well as them.
sphabout 1 hour ago
FWIW I have never heard or seen the Hoka brand in my life until now. I wouldn’t even try to google what On looks like. The first time I heard about Allbirds is when they pivoted to AI.

We all live in our own bubbles.

ivankra18 minutes ago
YMMV but Hoka Bondi is the most comfortable pair of sneakers I've ever had in my life. I'm not going back to Nike. Haven't heard/seen much of them until this year too though.
Bishonen8832 minutes ago
A 5min 'best running shoes' session would mention both Hokas, ON's etc.

That's an anecdote, not a bubble in my opinion. I have a counterexample where I have not worn any Hoka's but have seen/known of them. Have multiple pairs of On shoes.

harshalizee42 minutes ago
Today, you're one of the lucky 10000![1]

For me personally, On shoes are probably the most comfortable pairs I've ever owned. Their waterproof sneakers are the only ones I've ever had that's actually fully waterproof. If you're looking for a decent pair of sneakers you should at least take a look at their Cloud line.

[1] https://xkcd.com/1053/

omnimus14 minutes ago
On shoes are also very ugly. I don't think they have a single pair that has any style. I would love to try them but it looks like shoes for retirees.
sh-runabout 2 hours ago
As a trail runner it’s been weird to watch. Nike ACG has been putting out some seriously good, cutting edge equipment. Ultrafly is a great shoe, as is the Pegasus trail for road-to-trail they’ve also got some neat cooling tech that I don’t have personal experience with.

Project Oregon left a bad taste in a lot of people’s mouth. It feels like right when they recovered their image with runners they are losing mass appeal.

aprilthird202143 minutes ago
Runners are not even like 20-30% of the buyers of such shoes I'd wager. Most people buying a cushioned On, Hoka, or Nike running shoe are just looking for a shoe that's comfortable and versatile
imp0cat10 minutes ago
Exactly. And there is a lot of other alternatives in this space, check the guides at https://runrepeat.com/
branko_d15 minutes ago
Last month, I bought two pairs of sneakers: one was a full leather design made in Spain, the other was a leather/cloth combination (Italian design, I'm not sure where they are made). Both are comfortable, seem to be of very good quality and look premium. The price of these two pairs together was less then one Nike pair made of synthetic materials.

This was in Novi Sad, Serbia. I don't know what's going on around the world, but if this anecdote is of any indication, Nike is simply too expensive for the (lack of) quality they have.

epsteingptabout 2 hours ago
Sneakerbots killed it for everyone.

Priced out the demand IMO too early.

But also, people only have 2 feet.

ronsorabout 2 hours ago
> Sneakerbots killed it for everyone

Ultimately I think artificial scarcity/limited production for products offered online is a futile and erroneous venture. The bots exist because the product is valuable. The product is valuable because it's artificially limited.

epsteingptabout 2 hours ago
Slightly different take IMO.

There's a niche market for certain player's sneakers. If Nike services them at a price point (e.g. $200 base) then people can keep buying from Nike and will buy the next version.

If instead some sneakerbot takes ALL the consumer surplus (buys for $200, resells for $1000) yes that is the actual demand curve but it hurts NIKE'S business and the consumer.

HWR_14about 1 hour ago
If Nike wanted to stop that they could just take more orders at $200. It's not like a concert, they can just make more shoes.
bawolffabout 1 hour ago
>then people can keep buying from Nike and will buy the next version.

But in this scenario people can't because if they are worth $1000 but selling for $200 then they will instantly sell out.

why does it hurt consumers more to not be able to purchase due to the price point instead of due to being instantly sold out?

bawolffabout 1 hour ago
Its fine if you are targeting rich people. It doesn't work if you are targeting (relatively) poor people. You can't have both scarsity and low prices, something has to give.
andsoitisabout 2 hours ago
> But also, people only have 2 feet.

There's more to athletic wear than shoes. Competition like Lululemon, Vuori, Athleta, etc. suggest to me that Nike didn't expand their business broadly enough.

morkalorkabout 2 hours ago
Lululemon is crashing out too tho, methinks consumers are having a hard time justifying the brand name markups for SEA clothing-slop these days.
ikr6789 minutes ago
Word is out and there are a number of well regarded amazon dupes (CRZ) for Lulu that are rumoured to be from the same manufacturing lines.
whatabout 2 hours ago
Why should they? Why can’t they just make shoes and be happy about it?
MiroslavPokornyabout 2 hours ago
Exactly why should basketballers also try and advertise shoes.
bdangubicabout 1 hour ago
not sneakebots but competition coupled with failure of nike to modernize past airjordan brand. nike was riding hiding when you alternatives were reebok and new balance. now there are a lot more brands and they leave nike in the dust. my 13-year old athlete

- does not know who “jordan” is

- called me a boomer when I suggested to buy her nike shoes I liked for the upcoming season

bionhowardabout 1 hour ago
I feel like Nike’s biggest fumble was not advertising the Invincibles more. It seemed they had some evidence the PEBAX foam could reduce injury in base mileage, which is the number one thing many/most runners spend the most time on. So why not make sure everybody knows this? It seems weird. If you have a lot of athletes who need conditioning and don’t want to get injured, why not advertise the crap out of the injury prevention shoes?
gcanyonabout 1 hour ago
I hope this doesn't negatively affect Laika -- I very much like their films.
deboulaymxf24 minutes ago
Yeezy Yeezy Yeezy just jumped over Jumpman

Yeezy Yeezy Yeezy I just did the numbers

If Nike ain’t have MJ they’d have nothing

Yeezy Yeezy Yeezy Yeezy just jumped over jumpman

kazinatorabout 1 hour ago
Maybe they can come up with some push button pump gadget for inflating stocks.
madaxe_again16 minutes ago
The market has more confidence in Nike than Nvidia, however - the former trades at a higher forward PE.

I guess it’s easier to believe in a shoe brand turnaround than it is in an AI future.

jimt1234about 1 hour ago
I feel like athletic shoes have mostly become what they were always meant to be: athletic shoes - you know, for doing something athletic, not just for going to Costco or McDonalds or whatever else. Back in the 90s, athletic shoes, like Nike, were for everything; they were the default shoe style. Now people wear Crocs or flip-flops or something else, not necessarily athletic shoes. So now the market is smaller for Nike - they can make the best athletic shoes in the world, but most people aren't athletes, they just wanna slip something on their feet and go to the grocery store.
nradov24 minutes ago
Athletic shoes are still popular for streetwear. But it's a fickle market where style trends count for a lot more than performance.
landdateabout 1 hour ago
yeah but nike sells slides which are pretty popular with the youth.
jmyeet20 minutes ago
Two things really undead Nike: DTC and the simplification of their product line. But where did those ideas come from? Mckinsey [1].

Does anything good ever come out of management consulting? It just seems to be a scam whenever I hear about. It's to provide cover for CEOs where the consultants can get blamed when things inevitably go sour. Then you fire them and hire new consultants. It's only when the disaster is so massive that the CEO gets fired (as was the case here). And likewise, McKinsey (or whoever) just say the company failed to execute properly or they were already doomed so they gave them the best chance to succeed or whatever self-absolution they choose on any given day.

Producing things has been replaced with financial chicanery to boost short term profits in a way that's inevitably fatal to the company. Few developed economies actually produce anything anymore and we have China that produces 30-40% of the world's stuff at this point.

[1]: https://www.toddherman.com/leadership/how-data-drove-nike-in...

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fakedangabout 2 hours ago
Lots of bad marketing moves by Nike - wonder which middle management genius' idea it was to put that big ass poster right on the facade of a historic building, if anyone remembers.

And their manufacturing quality has gone down the drain. Their sneakers fall apart in months while German brand sneakers still manage to retain their quality.

AIorNotabout 1 hour ago
Maybe they should pivot to AI like AllBirds :)
cadamsdotcomabout 2 hours ago
Personal anecdote I treated myself last year to some Nikes (Vaporflys) because they looked suave on a friend's feet..

Did 180km of training, maybe 5 weeks worth, and the soles utterly shredded. Couldn't put my foot down level, corners of the soles completely gone.

Shoe store said that's what they're designed to do, no refund.

Cost me about $2AUD per km. But it'll cost Nike a bit more than that.

nielskabout 1 hour ago
But that’s a thing with all carbon-plated shoes. You get 200-300km out of it. They are usually only worth it, if you run around a sub-3 marathon. It can be worth it for shorter distances but you should have someone looking at your running style because those shoes increase your likeliness of injury if your running style isn’t well or you can keep it up for the whole distance when you are getting tired.

All people I know who use them, just run them once before a race to try them out and after that they are like a very good suit which you only use for special events.

This is really independent of Nike but a thing with those kind of shoes.

standevenabout 1 hour ago
That is exactly what they’re supposed to do. They are marketed as racing shoes for a couple of marathons, tops. Everything on those shoes is designed to be as thin and as light as possible.
cadamsdotcom40 minutes ago
In principle I agree; after all they're softer and lighter than most.

But my equally anecdotal counteranecdote is that I've owned multiple pairs of the Saucony equivalent (Pro 2, Pro 3, and then Pro 4) over multiple years and gotten thousands of km out of each pair. They just last and last.

So I'm a brand loyalist for now..

It's life, can't help a few mistakes on your way. I'm happy with where I've landed. (pun intended!)

standeven29 minutes ago
Glad you’re happy with the Saucony Pro. I think the equivalent to the Vaporfly would be the Saucony Endorphin Elite though, which probably lasts no more than a couple of big races either.

If you ever want to try team Nike again, the Zoom Fly is the carbon-plated trainer I use, and it lasts a lot longer than the race shoes. I’m definitely not getting thousands of km though!

userbinator27 minutes ago
You did the footwear equivalent of putting racing slicks on a daily driver.
cadamsdotcom10 minutes ago
I did, but it was because I'd had my expectations raised by Saucony's products (see my peer comment for more info)
YZF41 minutes ago
That's been my impression with all running shoes over the last few years. They fall apart. I bought myself some nice Reebok shoes and they disintegrated. The sole is gone holes develop in the sides etc. I guess they make them lighter and thinner. I would prefer something that's a bit more durable but that doesn't seem to be an option.
twallaabout 1 hour ago
180km is pretty bad but you also trained in a race shoe that deliberately makes material tradeoffs to increase running efficiency.
VirusNewbieabout 2 hours ago
I thought Nike had a good thing going for a while, they were able to sell cheap lower end shoes but had some good brands that stayed a little higher status.

But where the hell have they been, as other athletic companies have taken off with better synthetic fabric, nike hasn't increased in quality. Their marketing is particularly weird, making some interesting choices.

All in all, it seems the company has been badly run the last ten years.

morkalorkabout 2 hours ago
I'll just toss in 2c I've seen elsewhere: The brand got diluted like Burberry
Alien1Beingabout 2 hours ago
They are welcome to make stuff that nobody wants. Weird designs, made poorly and disintegrating in months.

But then the share price drops.

ie: the market capitalisation drops.

They then have to pay more money to borrow.

Fewer investors are interested in giving them money.

The business spirals into irrelevance like Ken Olsen's Digital Equipment Corporation.

Restructuring happens

Employees lose jobs.

Restructuring happens again and again and again.

Employees lose jobs, more jobs and still more jobs.

Unpaid suppliers go bankrupt.

Finally they shut down and become an irrelevance like Nike, 777 Partners, DEC, BioXcel Therapeutics, Lycos, First Brands Group, Yahoo.

osnium12324 minutes ago
Is Nike the Intel of shoe makers? A faded former giant that has major operations in Oregon.
eastboundabout 1 hour ago
You're missing one aspect: Nike relentlessly promoted wokism. It triggers 2 parts: Gives you less time to market to WASP; It makes your shops the first in line during mass unrests, which in turn floods the local market with cheap versions of your shoes.

Those big ads subtitled "Black culture" with a body-positive woman, on a 30mx30m, hung on the scaffolding of a magnificent Haussmann-period palace, it does have an effect on customer identification to your brand.

deaux2 minutes ago
Talk about living in a bubble. Nike is an ultraglobal brand. The people who were exposed to such ads and saw them negatively represent maybe 0.5% of global revenue. If even that. They sure weren't running "body-positive woman" ads in Tokyo and Zagreb.
Alien1Being44 minutes ago
Missing out on the ferociously MAGA market segment is surely a positive...
hyperlinerappabout 1 hour ago
The marketing campaign they launched in April 2023 also deteriorated their brand position. It earned them woke coins, but the NPV of all those future woke coins flows was negative.
spiderice9 minutes ago
People on HN are, of course, going to pretend that moving from Michael Jordan to Dylan Mulvaney and whoever that overweight "Own The Floor" lady aren't a huge downgrade. Wearing Nike became kind of embarrassing.