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Discussion (67 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

springtimesun•1 minute ago
My partner spent many years in big law and now sits across the table on the client side. The billable hour has been problematic for much longer than AI has been in the picture, but what many people forget (including sometimes the companies paying the bill) is that you often aren't really paying for the hours, you're paying the structural tax that has been established by the system. Hours imply work product, but sometimes the reason firms are paying outside counsel _at all_ isn't because their in-house team couldn't do it, it's because the market/courts have told them they need the liability transference granted by a signed piece of paper.

That said, the rest of the article is on point. AI billing analysis software + internal knowledge of how the sausage gets made has shaved literal millions off bills at this point. I wouldn't expect them to lose money in an absolute sense though. More like a balloon you squeeze from one end.

One thing I came here to say, but turn out not to be the case, was the large jump in associates salaries as an interesting possible driver. I found a handy tracking number that does inflation adjustment. Turns out when you index for inflation, the associate pay scales are more or less flat.

dabinat•about 1 hour ago
My experience with lawyers is that if you need a legal document, they often have templates ready to go and will take 10 seconds to find & replace your company name into the document. I know this because they often don’t proofread it afterwards. They then charge you $1000 for that 10 seconds of work. Given that I have felt ripped off by many lawyers, I’m totally fine with that industry getting disrupted.
tiffanyh•13 minutes ago
Do you have any issues with thr tech industry selling software licenses?

Because a lawyer selling a contract template, is in many ways, very similar in concept to tech industry selling a software license/seat.

They are both akin to “templates”, and selling IP.

atherton94027•7 minutes ago
They still need to proofread the doc and make sure it applies to their client though?
beaned•8 minutes ago
One is transparent and the other feels like a lie.

Not in principle, but in practice.

lurk2•12 minutes ago
> I know this because they often don’t proofread it afterwards.

It’s hilarious to see people complaining about lawyers being overpaid and incompetent on a forum dedicated to an industry that was completely unregulated up until about a month ago. A lawyer can be disbarred from his profession for making these kinds of mistakes; can you?

alphasm•39 minutes ago
I recently had a similar experience where it became very clear that the lawyers were using AI to draft the agreements. Though it was very accurate and pedantic on some matters, it got other things completely wrong because it was not provided with full context, and full context is very difficult to provide.

The lawyers did not properly review the agreements, causing post-signature discovery of major issues and having to redo and execute all the agreements a second time, leading to inflated lawyer bills.

If the lawyer is going to prompt the same AI that I can prompt myself and is not going to review the agreements thoroughly, then it is clear where this is leading.

mrheosuper•8 minutes ago
Not really fair comparison. I agree they are ripping us, but the "template" is like a source code. It takes time and money to write and maintain it.
knollimar•about 1 hour ago
Weird take on a site with most of us coasting on a near zero marginal cost product.
dataflow•about 1 hour ago
You develop software for your second client in 10 seconds?
reverius42•30 minutes ago
Each additional copy? Only if it's really, really big. Otherwise it's under 2 seconds.
Der_Einzige•42 minutes ago
Lawyer jokes are on point and on brand for a reason.

They grift about as hard as tech workers did pre-2022. Relying on the fact that no one can easily audit their work to justify their one hour of actually work despite making easily 300K+ a year.

Please kill their golden goose. Most lawyers are actively harmful to society.

hermannj314•9 minutes ago
I see no evidence that in our nation's 250 year history or the broader practice of law (specifically adversarial law), that lawyers are working to make their job more efficient, legal outcomes more reliable, or legal tools more accessible.

Burn their entire industry to the ground. I welcome making the practice of law an AI-only field and ban humans from working in it to remove prejudice, misconduct, expense. As a former foster parent, I've seen children being delayed justice for weeks because two lawyers couldn't find time for a 15 minute conversation in front a judge. I've hated all lawyers ever since. Gatekeeping priesthood of the 21st century.

georgeburdell•26 minutes ago
On the other hand, I'm horrified at the thought of zero marginal cost legal work given the strain of the current workload on courts.
Razengan•4 minutes ago
> strain of the current workload on courts

Maybe courts could be replaced by AI too once it's good enough?

With the right to escalate to human judges of course.

lurk2•29 minutes ago
> They grift about as hard as tech workers did pre-2022. Relying on the fact that no one can easily audit their work to justify their one hour of actually work despite making easily 300K+ a year.

This isn’t true at all.

hackyhacky•about 1 hour ago
> I’m totally fine with that industry getting disrupted.

Because you'd rather pay your $1000 to OpenAI for 5 milliseconds of work, instead of to a human lawyer for 10 seconds of work?

atoav•about 1 hour ago
You pay the human because you assume they take responsibility in this being correct. If they literally copy-paste without checking they are no better than AI. In fact they may be worse.
hackyhacky•38 minutes ago
My comment was not intended to express support of using AI instead of lawyers, but rather to express the pointlessness of "disrupting" human lawyers.
throwup238•about 1 hour ago
If the human lawyer doesn’t proofread it, whats the point’s the point of a human lawyer? Scapegoat for the AI?
hackyhacky•35 minutes ago
Yes, lawyers have ethical and legal responsibility for their work. Plus, I'd prefer that my money not go towards the consolidation and monopolization of all intellectual labor in the hands of Sam Altman.
kshmir•about 1 hour ago
Except you probably pay cents in tokens for that, or included with your sub.
hackyhacky•34 minutes ago
The business plan of any "disruption" is to undercut the legacy competitors, drive them out of business, then jack up the prices. See also: Uber, streaming services.

Enjoy your cheap lawyer tokens while you can.

nomilk•about 1 hour ago
I feel this is the case for a lot of industries (and even a lot of productivity-enhancers, beyond AI).

I remember a much slower change where software slowly ate away the work of property managers. Especially convenient was the ability for the tenant to perform the 6-monthly inspection remotely by uploading a half-dozen photos per room, taking just 15 minutes or so rather than waiting around for several hours for a physical meet up with the property manager. Software also allowed rent payments to be easily automated, collated and monitored.

But I don't think the number of property managers decreased, nor the price that landlords paid for their services.

apical_dendrite•about 1 hour ago
When I was looking for an apartment recently, the big "luxury" buildings use AI agents to schedule tours and answer questions. Tours are also self-serve, you don't actually get to meet and talk to anyone. It's a crappy experience. I had to call an AI agent to figure out how to get in the front door of a building and it completely failed to answer this very basic question (fortunately someone eventually saw me knocking). When I toured one large complex there were several groups wandering through the building at once. It did not give me a particularly safe feeling to see that random people going everywhere in the buildings unescorted had been completely normalized.
mikert89•about 1 hour ago
Spoke with a banker at a well known investment bank in NYC last week. They told the law firm they want the fees cut in half or they walk. This is to a top 5 law firm. Lawyers are trying to charge the same prices, when both sides know they are working half the hours. This is even at the most premium top end, where an engagement bill can run up to 30 million.
lurk2•40 minutes ago
> Lawyers are trying to charge the same prices, when both sides know they are working half the hours.

An absurd claim presented without evidence.

socializer•about 1 hour ago
Outside of court proceedings, a significant proportion of what law offices do is already extremely streamlined. Stuff like wills, deeds, incorporation paperwork, is all template-based and any remaining work is done by paralegals, then billed at outrageous rates. So I'm not actually sure if AI makes it a whole lot cheaper. Maybe it makes it harder to pretend.

But there's also a good reason why lawyers can keep charging these fees: because they have a say on who can practice the profession. Unlike software engineers and like doctors, they're in charge and will not allow autonomous systems to represent you or otherwise "practice law". That'd be suicide.

Also, for many services, downward price pressure already exists to some extent, in that there are various "low-stakes" virtual legal firms licensed in multiple states that provide forms you can fill and then file for $50 a pop instead of $500 a pop. But most consumers still prefer to visit a local law office. I'm not sure this will change with AI. I know quite a few people who are keen to self-diagnose using Google or ChatGPT, but I don't know as many inclined to vibecode their articles of incorporation.

It's really one of these white-collar professions that I think is quite secure. Software engineers are hosed to a greater extent, having enthusiastically engineered their own personal hell.

classified•24 minutes ago
> That'd be suicide.

And yet many software developers are hyping themselves into obsolescence by pretending you can't write code by hand anymore.

throwaway89864•about 2 hours ago
The issue is that communications with A.I. are not privileged like client-attorney. There was some judge that made that ruling.

Feels like a conflict of interests to me, I'd guess friends, neighbors, children and nieces of that judge enjoying their livelihood by charging for legal services. While legal services are now available under substantially lower rates and with a lot fewer conflicts of interests from A.I. providers...

anon373839•about 1 hour ago
This is a completely straightforward application of existing law on privilege. To maintain privilege, among other things, communications must be confidential.

Chatting with Claude breaks confidentiality: chats with Claude are subject to arbitrary inspection by Anthropic employees, not to mention the issue of model training.

You can use self-hosted LLMs without breaking privilege. And funny enough, law firms like Latham & Watkins are now buying Nvidia GPU clusters for this purpose.

jryle70•13 minutes ago
> communications must be confidential.

Email and phone calls are considered confidential, even though it is possible for vendors to inspect the communication. I expect AI use will be tested legally, but once precedence has been established in court it will become a common practice.

true_religion•about 1 hour ago
They ruled that it's like a journal, or a tool like a search engine. This seems fair.
judge2020•about 1 hour ago
But, if you were to represent yourself, are your journal entries about said case privileged? Can the opposition call into evidence a binder of legal strategies you created that morning before court?

At what point does it become a 5th amendment issue? Maybe when we get AI in our corneas a la Black Mirror's The Entire History of You?

lizknope•about 1 hour ago
I know almost nothing about law firms. But for some other industry if you have 1000 competitors making similar products then companies will compete on price. If you reduce your prices then you will probably get more customers.

If you want to buy a new PC would you rather just have IBM making PCs and setting the price to whatever they want or a thousand different clone companies all competing on price, features, support, etc?

So some new law firm may want to disrupt the industry with a new model

Skyy93•about 3 hours ago
It's even worse with some physicians. When I got an MRI a year or two ago, getting an AI diagnosis cost extra. I am very positive about AI, but I can understand why people would be hesitant to pay extra when they hear about false positives and the unreliability of AI.
elicash•about 2 hours ago
Additionally, BCBS reports that hospitals are using AI to find ways to charge more money: https://www.bcbs.com/about-us/association-news/bcbsa-analysi...

> New analysis from the Blue Cross Blue Shield Association (BCBSA) finds that hospital systems are increasingly billing patient hospital stays as more medically complex, driving nearly $1 billion in additional healthcare costs in just two years. [...]

> More than 60% of hospital systems are now using AI-enabled technologies that can scan lab results and electronic records to identify secondary diagnoses, which could move a patient into a higher-severity, higher-reimbursement billing category.

judge2020•about 1 hour ago
Upcoding is a tale as old as time (and one of UHG's main tactics for making truckloads of money), but this does seem new and interesting.

Like, obviously only a doctor can diagnose. But, they can use technology to help them look at problems, including AI (literally the most versatile pattern matching software we have, just in natural language and with lower success rates). And they can make their own judgement call on if what the tool output is saying is correct.

However, if a Doctor were to see a bogus secondary diagnosis on their screen, and then dismiss it, they're opening themself up to medical malpractice liability, no? Like, it seems like the safest option would be to run (and bill for) the extra tests to confirm if the AI's story is true or untrue.

hammock•about 1 hour ago
That…doesn’t sound like a bad thing for patients? That sounds like an increase in the standard of care. I’m not surprised a health insurer is mad about it though
judge2020•about 1 hour ago
Adding false secondary diagnoses is one of the most prevalent forms of healthcare upcoding and makes hospitals and health providers a boatload of money.

It sounds like AI is making doing that a lot easier, and probably hard to contest what it finds without running extra tests.

mcoliver•about 2 hours ago
Always ask for your imaging data. I have never been denied it. Then take that and run it through your own analysis. Years ago I had some lab work done looking for a specific genetic marker that could explain something. While that was running I took my 23andme genome and cross referenced it with snpedia and had my answer (didn't have the marker) before my doctor did. She was blown away. This was 10 years ago. I'm guessing things have improved quite a bit.
fluidcruft•about 2 hours ago
Are there even any FDA labeled AI diagnostics for MRI? Just about everything I've seen is more things that are meant to help radiologists do things faster (and it's rather debatable whether they ultimately achieve that). The things I've seen gaining traction are very specific measurements (that are not themselves diagnostic) or things that improve workflow.
youniverse•about 2 hours ago
Yep one imaging center in LA is charging $45 out of pocket for the AI diagnosis.
dfxm12•about 2 hours ago
Setting aside the unreliability of AI, healthcare is already expensive and confusing. It's hard to know what's covered or not ahead of time and it sucks to feel nickel and dimed on something that is already so expensive, especially when you consider we are not trained medical professionals, so we can't really have an informed opinion on what this is really worth...
pkaye•about 2 hours ago
can you say no to an AI diagnosis in that case?
Skyy93•about 2 hours ago
Yes, sorry should have mentioned that. Of course the easy solution is then to simply decline.
Animats•about 1 hour ago
Law firms are going to be rolled over by AI. The inefficient law firms will be replaced. Like Expedia, etc. did to travel agents.
besterman23•about 2 hours ago
So… if AI is reducing time taken for billable actions, then that reduces the cost no? Unless it’s not actually reducing the time spent on said actions.
judge2020•about 1 hour ago
Reduces the cost to the medical provider. You think that'll result in a reduced the cost on the person's bill?
edg5000•about 2 hours ago
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mullingitover•about 2 hours ago
I’m just waiting for the AI judgments, followed by the flash trials, followed by the flash litigation DDOS attacks.
RachelF•about 1 hour ago
Australia already has AI tax judgements:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robodebt_scheme

disantlor•about 2 hours ago
neya•about 1 hour ago
AI is just a tool like everything else. Are you also going to ask me for a discount because I used a powered screw driver?
preommr•10 minutes ago
since we're posting pointless gotchas:

Do we pay more to a lawyer if they handwrite a legal document using expert penmanship?

DrSAR•24 minutes ago
and conversely, I'll pay you more if you grab a rake and not a leaf blower
mpalmer•about 1 hour ago
Yes, because I'm expecting you to compete.
tahoeskibum•about 1 hour ago
Exactly, somebody using power tools can do a lot more in an hour than somebody using manual tools. That is the real discount.
edoceo•about 1 hour ago
One thing you get from legal council is they'll be ready to defend and contracts or agreements they've made for you. Might be hard to find defense or offense on AI slop contracts. We've seen how AI does code, imagine that inconsistency in legal docs.
gedy•about 2 hours ago
That's basically like devs being 10x with AI - they ain't getting a raise for that..
Razengan•25 minutes ago
Lawyers and politicians are the first things that ought to be replaced by AI, honestly.
classified•19 minutes ago
Remember that it can always get worse.
Razengan•15 minutes ago
We've watched Terminator and The Matrix. We're ready
LastTrain•about 2 hours ago
Well we’ve spent over a trillion on infrastructure and we’re only just getting started so good luck getting your fucking discount
ktallett•about 2 hours ago
I'm sure many law companies have a trillion spare to invest in data centres. I don't think anyone would be upset if AI broke the standard charges for lawyer fees.