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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLzEX1TPBFM
But even if it's true, which I don't think it is, it doesn't matter. Why? Because the idea is actually sound and a lot of thought has gone into it by people who have backgrounds in physics and engineering.
It's worth adding that "Dyson Swarm" is the more common nomenclature now because of a mistaken belief that a Dyson sphere was a rigid spherical shell you build around a star. That was never the case and there's no even theorized material that could support this kind of rigid structure. It was always a cloud of small orbitals so the "Dyson Swarm" should alleviate any confusion (hopefully).
Our civilization is ultimately energy-limited. I've seen estimates that we use ~10^11 Watts of energy. The Sun's entire output is ~10^25 Watts. That's a truly staggering amount of energy. We can barely comprehend what might be possible with that much energy. But one of those things is interstellar travel.
Many discussions on interstellar travel gloss over just how large the energy budgets are. But propelling objects with solar sails, particularly if you concentrate energy, seems feasible. At least the physics holds up.
Spreading throughout the galaxy becomes an almost inevitable consequence once you have the capability to do so.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huAIfzUoyhU&t=121s
When it comes to software projects my pet-name for it is the "big-bang theory", but in the article's domain that's kind of already taken.
It appeals to me because if you've ever taken a flight you can see how the details get progressively erased as you lift. Details that matter for a lot of reasons even if you can't see them.
https://www.lesswrong.com/w/near-far-thinking
I assume if such a replicating probe would really be possible, it should be straightforward to just send of a million of them and hope for the best.
In my opinion, a huge limiting factor is communication. How do you know if those probes reached their target?
There's also an ethical aspect to it. Should we really fill the universe with self replicating paperclips? Because once you start the process, when and how would you stop it?
How do you create a staging area outside of a galaxy? There wouldn't be enough matter or energy locally available to do anything useful.
>In my opinion, a huge limiting factor is communication. How do you know if those probes reached their target?
Presumably you wait millions years for a return probe.
>Because once you start the process, when and how would you stop it?
Indeed. These probes are going to be so far apart they are unlikely to be able to communicate with each other in any meaningful way.
And even if they do perceive it like us, that hasn't stopped humans from great projects. How many generations did it take to complete Stonehenge or the Great Wall of China? We're still on top of Voyager too after 50 years.
How much would human life span need to increase for a von Neumann Probe to seem reasonable. I would think a life span of 600 and you're thinking, sure I won't get to see it through, but my allotted genetic offspring that I am allowed at age 500 if either of my other two have failed might.
a "kilroy was here" sign has different purpose than "eat at joes".
is it enough to say "hi, your not alone" ? would we actually want to encourage discourse, or visitation.
I read an interesting book called Count to a Trillion.
Astronomers detected an antimatter star a mere 50 lightâyears from Earth, and the US launched an unmanned mission to go there and learn what it could. Luckily the probe was programmed to transmit its findings multiple times, because the first few transmissions were missed; terrorists had launched a bioweapon that nearly caused an extinction event. Eventually Europe recovered enough to be paying attention. Appended like a footnote to the end of the probeâs transmission of everything it found were pictures of the writing covering the surface of the only moon of the only planet in the system, a gas giant.
The Europeans launched a manned mission a few decades later. One token American, the inventor of the suspended animation technique the crew would be using, was invited along. They went, they learned quite a lot from the Monument, they harvested a quite a lot of antimatter, and then they returned.
What they could decode from the Monument was mostly mathematics. A large portion of it was proofs for various theorems of [cliometrics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cliometrics), or quantitative history. With a proper understanding of the mathematics, anyone can predict and even control the evolution of any complex system. It could be a computer program, a network, an organism, an ecology, a society, or all of the above at once. The other interesting bit of math was a complete proof of a system for calculating the value of a trade, given the distance between the participants and their relative level of technology and intelligence. It proves that profitable trade is possible between distant star systems, provided both sides know enough. Proper use of the system allows both sides to know the profit of any trade in advance, meaning no prior coordination need be required. Any two parties can use it to launch trade missions that take millennia to arrive knowing that the other side will already have made the same calculations and be expecting the mission.
The rest of what they decode is astronomy and history. The Monument records that a group of aliens in the dwarf galaxy M3 claim ownership and responsibility for the whole galaxy. Through several layers of delegation they are organizing the creation of life here in the Milky Way. In particular, any and all life arising near the antimatter star was seeded by an intelligence inhabiting a globular cluster 1000 lightâyears away. Therefore humans owe that intelligence a huge debt and must repay it, effectively making everyone on Earth a slave. As soon as they detect anyone tampering with the antimatter star they are instructed to send a mission to deracinate the planet, carry away whatever life they find, and use it to colonize other star systems. This mission cannot not be sent quickly, as weâre expected to be quite primitive and thus not worth spending very much on, but it will arrive in ~11,000 years whether anyone likes it or not. The crew of the ship then depart for Earth.
When they got back to Earth they found that the whole world was strange. Hundreds of years have past, all the countries are different, and their homes are gone. They end up using some of the antimatter as weapons, defeating the militaries of the world and declaring themselves ruler of all. Between their military power, their knowledge of cliometrics (primitive though it is at this point), and the vast riches of the antimatter that they brought with them, they manage to live in some style.
The main character (the token American from before) and his fiance discover one additional proof of importance: any form of life can be elevated above their boss if they can prove themselves more capable of longâterm thinking. All you have to do is engage in really longâterm trade. They decide that they should make Humanity equal to their bossâs bossâs bossâs boss, the intelligence at the dwarf galaxy M3, by sending a mission there and back. Itâll take 77,000 years but as long as Humanity survives that long and doesnât forget about them then Humanity will be vindicated and will no longer be enslaved to anyone. They plan to depart the day after their wedding. They spend the night after their wedding in a disused hotel thousands of miles above the Pacific ocean in the middle of a space elevator.
Alas, that night the main characterâs rival calls him out for a duel. He agrees and meets the guy at the base of the elevator. But the duel is a trap; his rival cheats and the space elevator is severed. He is buried under the rubble, wounded but alive, as his wife makes her way up to the ship. She canât turn the ship around and come back for him and so must continue the mission without him. He decides that one night with his wife is not enough and has to find a way to live on Earth for the next 77,000 years or so until she gets back. Cue sequels.
So there you go. Love seems like a pretty good answer to me, but technically any sufficiently longâterm motivation would suffice. Iâm sure that you could imagine some, if you put your mind to it.
Would you be at all interested in expanding that project to outlast you?
And even if you personally wouldnât be so inclined, surely you know or have met people who might?
Once you have the self replication, expanding scope may just be additional codeâŚ
Also, I wonder if good old-fashioned computing is interesting at all to a civilization that's had access to advanced AI and quantum computing for a while.
Like we haven't really figured out how to get an ML model to run on a quantum computer, or how to build a quantum-native computer (i.e. surface of a black hole, or some other way that doesn't rely on our current sense of quantum error correction), but I don't know of any physical laws that preclude it.
I'd bet if aliens invaded our galaxy, they'd go for the super black holes in the center, or some other resource beyond our use and understanding, not this random water planet on the edge.
"good old-fashioned computing is interesting at all"
"Computronium" is defined as "the best computing power available". I deliberately selected it as a neutral term that does not depend on any particular model of QM or black holes or anything else.
Personally I doubt it's exactly one thing because optimizing for different types of computing is likely to result in a spectrum of computroniums rather than just the one, but the term flexes to encompass that easily enough.
The point is, you build something in that system over there for the same reason a normal human might buy a bit of property and put a house on it. The human in question isn't going "oh, I don't need to do that because the world already has hundreds of millions of residences". The human does that so that the residence belongs to them. The hundreds of millions of residences that do not belong to them do not factor into that question.
[0] https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43650/auguries-of-inn...
Sending an acorn-sized probe to another galaxy to make more acorn-sized probes: what even is the point of that? To make very slow grey goo a reality?
If actual humans find a way to go to Andromeda (other than waiting for it to arrive, heh) and want to, good for them. Otherwise we should actively discourage anything like the project proposed
In any case, I'm fairly sure the authors agree that sending mindless automata to colonize the universe doesn't seem like a great idea. Nevertheless some alien intelligence (including an Earth-based AGI) might find it a completely reasonable, even imperative, goal.
But sentient machines or uploads (assuming for the sake of this this thought experiment that they are possible)? That's a different thing.
That is a ridiculous thing to say. We can barely get to the moon today.
Life on a planet is a lot like a continuous fire, fires often send out embers that start new fires elsewhere.
You send out little packets of life to new places, wait single-digit billions of years (a blink of an eye for the universe, really), boom: new intelligent species with potential to shoot more seeds out into the universe.
Software, sure. I know 3D printer folks will sometimes 3D print parts for new machines. But nothing that fully replicates itself, right? Especially autonomously.
Maybe we'll see what a moon base can bring us.
What we're capable of != what we're doing / not doing because of political will. We are technically capable of reaching significant fractions of c with tech from the 1960s. We'll never do that because there's no will to do it, but the tech is there.
Same for self replicating stuff. We could build self-contained factories that build stuff from raw minerals, but we'll likely not do it until there's a will for it. Or need for it.
The idea that you can just build a thing and send out a swarm and (slow) boom - you've colonised the galaxy, and all the adjacent galaxies - is hopelessly naive. To the point I'd call it stupid and silly.
Let's say you have a replicator thing that works. You send them out in swarms.
And then what? Some die, some miss, some are destroyed by accidents.
Some work.
But "a replicator landed and made some more" is not colonisation. Colonisation implies there's some kind of to-and-fro traffic, maybe trade, some kind of information exchange at a minimum.
And that implies the source civilisation has political, technological, and cultural stability, which can survive an incredibly slow diaspora.
Colonisation worked on Earth because it didn't take long to cross the Atlantic by sailing ship. Successful colonisers landed where humans already existed and trade was easy.
It doesn't work on interstellar, never mind intergalactic time scales, because nothing stays stable for that long. Not hardware, software, politics, or culture.
Nor, on slightly longer periods, biology. On much longer periods, geology, and eventually astrophysics, because stars change, and planetary systems aren't unconditionally stable.
So a colonising wave from a unified culture is an incredibly unlikely thing, not at all an obvious necessity.
This is the same fallacy, but taken toward rather than away from infinite possibility, that underlies things like the Club of Romeâs world models and their limits to growth thesis.
Zoom way out and the details disappear. Look only at aggregate statistics and extrapolate. Do this and you tend to get graphs that go to infinity (this paper) or to zero (limits to growth).
But the details are where things actually happen.
Also look up computational irreducibility, which is kind of another way of approaching what Iâm getting at here. You can only treat details in aggregate for systems whose causality is strictly hierarchical. If one detail can change the whole system, every detail must be considered or a simulation is invalid.
Turns out that living systems are like this.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/54728.Entering_Space
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/236447908_Magnetic_...
That's not to say that they don't work. But they'll probably be used primarily for braking to enter orbit around destination stars.
Probably the only way to reach a high fraction of the speed of light is to construct a giant laser to beam energy to a spaceship (which uses a reflector to receive light pressure momentum) and leave it behind orbiting the origin star. That's the premise of the Breakthrough Starshot project, which is ambitious with today's technology. But with self-replicating makerbots, building one may not be a big deal.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakthrough_Starshot
Unfortunately the force of light pressure (by F=2P/c for full reflection) is only about 2/3 of a kg or 1.5 lbs per GW, so a TW or greater would be needed for practical thrust. However, light pressure becomes the most efficient form of propulsion above about 25% to 50% c, if fusion or antimatter is used to create a gamma ray rocket.
Personally, I find it unlikely that aliens use these methods. I think that they probably worked out how to build neutrino lasers, since they don't burn up objects in their wake, perhaps by scaling superradiant Bose Einstein condensates:
https://arxiv.org/abs/2412.11765
In embarrassingly oversimplified layman's terms, I think that works by recruiting the macro-scale quantum state of the condensate (increased cross-section or barn) to overcome the short interaction distance of the weak force. Or by cooling the atoms to such an extent that they don't have the energy to hold themselves apart anymore, which accelerates their decay. I'm sure my explanations are wrong somehow.
Soon we may be able to investigate stuff like gravity waves and how the fabric of spacetime may be able to rebound above flat to create tiny ripples that allow mass energy to escape black holes, for example. I know that current theories don't state it quite that way, but if we consider stuff like the no-hair theorem and black box thought experiments, it's hard to see how Hawking radiation could exist without the wavelike nature of spacetime. We can even experiment with it on a relatively large scale by measuring the Casimir force. If we can rebound space, then we can play with stuff like negative energy and Alcubierre drives.
I looked up a Dyson sphere made from Mercury and it would be 1.5 mm thick, so aliens almost certainly aren't building them. But Dyson rings and swarms are probably a thing.
Some people in the tinfoil hat crowd think that UFOs can move 4th dimensionally and just travel orthogonally to our space and appear somewhere else. Theoretically, that might only require the energy difference (delta v) between planets. That hinges on if gravity spans higher dimensions and also touches on the multiverse. I'm way outside my wheelhouse so I'll stop blabbering about that.
In all honesty though, I question whether aliens travel. I think civilizations ascend about 10 years after they implement AI, or annihilate themselves in a Great Filter, their equivalent of WWIII. We're already staring the secrets of the universe in the face with automated theorem provers. And FUD around that and other accelerating tech drives people to become Luddites and elect amoral people who would gladly see the world burn for profit. So things could go either way really.
In my heart, I feel like we have a childlike understanding of consciousness. It probably transcends 4D spacetime. It's not hard to imagine aliens scaling what was learned from the CIA Gateway Program and doing stuff like FTL message passing via remote viewing. At that point FTL teleportation comes into the realm of possibility, sort of like in Dune.
If so, then aliens are probably everywhere, know about us, and maybe had a hand in our evolution. The probably live in what we think of as a Matrix, where years could go by for every second of our time. Another interpretation might be that they're able to return to source consciousness and exist as one, rather than in separation like we do. Maybe they periodically choose to reincarnate in us to study what transitioning to a spacefaring civilization looks like.
I probably shouldn't have bothered writing all of this, but it's Sunday, and I also really don't want to do my taxes.