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#surveillance#phone#someone#data#nsa#government#location#privacy#access#don

Discussion (102 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

DrewADesign•about 3 hours ago
I was training to be a 911 dispatcher a while ago. When they told us about getting someone’s location from the cell company outside of what was available automatically from e911 or whatever— which required them to be on the phone with you, so not useful if you get a text saying they just drove off a cliff in the middle of nowhere, or something— you had to sign an affidavit testifying that there were exigent circumstances, fax it to them, and then wait, sometimes for hours, until their legal department approved it. And you always risked being dragged to court if you made the wrong call. That’s the price of privacy, and the potential for abuse is rife, so it makes sense.

Yet these jackholes can just snag it whenever because, ya know, profit. That is obviously insane. Our corporate culture has driven our society insane with normalized greed. The unholy alliance of tech and marketing is largely to blame.

gruez•6 minutes ago
>Yet these jackholes can just snag it whenever because, ya know, profit. That is obviously insane. Our corporate culture has driven our society insane with normalized greed. The unholy alliance of tech and marketing is largely to blame.

Nothing in the article suggests the cause of this is "greed". The protocols are vulnerable and various shady companies have been set up to exploit it, but that has nothing to do with "greed", any more than the fact that there are shady hosters for spammers[1] are caused by "corporate culture has driven our society insane with normalized greed"

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulletproof_hosting

jbxntuehineoh•about 2 hours ago
> then wait, sometimes for hours

that just sounds pointless, won't they be dead by that point anyways?

pocksuppet•about 2 hours ago
IOW: We must end this "privacy" thing - think of people who might be dying!

It's all about power, anyway. The NSA doesn't need a warrant at all. When the police want to get an alleged criminal they can get a warrant in minutes. But when it's your life in danger, it takes hours. The purpose of a system is what it does.

DrewADesign•22 minutes ago
FWIW: At 911, we were the police, organizationally. Actual sworn cops didn’t have special access to phone companies that dispatchers didn’t— we’d probably be the ones making the request for them if it was that urgent. (In some places dispatchers are cops, but is very uncommon, and the distinction isn’t important in this respect.) Phone companies aren’t going to hire a bunch of specialized workers to comply with legal orders instantly instead of soon enough. And there surely needs to be a ticket made and such… it’s not like CS reps have that info.

The NSA doesn’t need warrants in many cases because they can get the information they need from the government’s own databases. I’m not an expert, but as far as I know, if they need someone’s location from a phone company they do need a warrant or to prove there were exigent circumstances, which is why they just get shit from data brokers. Some politicians want to close that loop hole but most either don’t, or don’t care enough. Some, shockingly, even want to reform FISA.

rdevilla•about 1 hour ago
In 2026, it's Israel. The NSA is so last decade, and isn't even mentioned in this article.

Silicon Valley and global communications infrastructure has been compromised by Israel. Quoting TFA:

> This analysis identified 4G infrastructure associated with operator networks based in Israel, the United Kingdom, and the Channel Islands. Notably, in prior public reporting these same countries have been linked to CSVs targeting mobile users.

> Israel has long been a focal point in the global surveillance industry, with multiple companies developing and exporting advanced spyware, cellular communications interception, and monitoring technologies.

DrewADesign•40 minutes ago
It depends on the situation. If someone is on fire, yes, it’s pointless. If someone is lost without good reception, no. If someone is suffering from dementia and wandering aimlessly, no. If someone has been abducted and can’t use their phone but still has it with them, no. These things do happen.
areoform•about 3 hours ago
One of the biggest lies about the surveillance state is that it'll be professional.

NSA employees have used multi-billion dollar American surveillance assets to spy on women they're infatuated with. There's even a cute term for it, LOVEINT.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/loveint-nsa-letter-disclo...

https://www.yahoo.com/news/nsa-staff-used-spy-tools-spouses-...

    In another instance, a foreign woman who was employed by the U.S. government suspected that her lover, an NSA civilian employee, was listening to her phone calls. She shared her suspicion with another government employee, who reported it. An investigation found the man abused NSA databases from 1998 to 2003 to snoop on nine phone numbers of foreign women and twice collected communications of an American, according to the inspector general's report.
People aren't able to imagine the ramifications of pervasive surveillance because there never has been such pervasive surveillance in human history. And humans are terrible at predicting how this is going to change things. Especially, with LLMs in the mix.

Unless a very strict line is maintained for privacy across the board; the world that's coming will be many, many custom, tailor-made hells co-existing as tumors off of the back of state and corporate surveillance infrastructure.

1a527dd5•about 2 hours ago
> She shared her suspicion with another government employee, who reported it.

And what pray tell do you do if you don't have anyone to report it to inside the government? Reports like that can easily get blackholed.

MisterTea•about 1 hour ago
> Unless a very strict line is maintained for privacy across the board; the world that's coming will be many, many custom, tailor-made hells co-existing as tumors off of the back of state and corporate surveillance infrastructure.

The future black markets are going to be filled with all sorts of illegal "private comms" devices to give us our privacy back. I am sure there are sci-fi novels with this theme.

pixl97•about 1 hour ago
Maybe, but they may very well stand out as the only 'unapproved' encryption on the wire and bring you more attention.
MisterTea•20 minutes ago
Who said anything about "wires"?
cedws•23 minutes ago
IIRC Snowden said the same in his biography - that the NSA had a bro culture and they abused their powers to obtain compromising images and texts (often sexual) and share them around.

If you're going to use technology to illegally spy on millions people, at least do it with some professionalism and restraint. Bastards.

intended•about 1 hour ago
> Unless a very strict line is maintained for privacy across the board;

> many, many custom, tailor-made hells co-existing as tumors off of the back of state and corporate surveillance infrastructure.

We already live in this world. Most of the conversations here on HN are naturally America centric, and the situation with the rest of the humans on the planet is secondary. The more distant, the less interest.

For most of that world, please for help are sent via stomach churning amounts of appeals on via WhatsApp. The hope is that someone knows someone at a platform to get them help.

Something like being having your non-consensual intimate imagery shared, means you are pretty much done. Since a majority of people live in nations with more conservative mores (on average) than the west, this means an absurd number of lives ruined.

Fraud, pig butchering scams, are examples of outright crimes. Tech isn’t much better when it comes to customer support. You want to recover your account, or reach a human? Good luck.

I’d love to hear a counter argument for this position: Tech platforms are as valuable as they are, because they do not pay the support costs they incur.

aetherspawn•about 4 hours ago
Yeah, a friend of mine was tracked by a stalker ex boyfriend who worked at a Telco.

It was irritatingly difficult to avoid because it seemed he could look up her SIM card by name and then get her location no matter what (new SIM, new phone)

Anyone who reports this kind of thing to the police just sounds irrational and crazy and gets ignored.

Padriac•about 4 hours ago
Sounds like something worth reporting as it is an offence in Australia at least. The police would certainly investigate such an allegation and charges could be laid if there was sufficient evidence and a conviction was possible.
joshstrange•about 4 hours ago
> The police would certainly investigate such an allegation and charges could be laid if there was sufficient evidence and a conviction was possible.

I'll let you know when I finish laughing.

This is 100% false. You can serve up all the evidence on a silver platter the the police will ignore it. I know, I've tried, specifically in a stalking case. They don't care.

Padriac•about 3 hours ago
Maybe where things are different where you live.
aetherspawn•about 4 hours ago
Yeah it was reported, but the telcos systems were such a load of slop there wasn’t any specific evidence recorded (logs etc), and besides nobody knew what to ask for, so it couldn’t be taken seriously.

I don’t remember the exact circumstances of how they got a confession years later, I think bragging, but he did get convicted and the Telco eventually fired him, which stopped the stalking.

boringg•about 4 hours ago
What no log files of who's accessing records? That seems super sketch.
therobots927•about 4 hours ago
Assuming he had access to a database with (lat, long, SIM) data, if she got a new phone he could just use the known (lat, long pairs) from the old sim and lookup to get the new sim. Then bam, you can get all of the new lat longs.

It’s impossible to avoid unless you simultaneously move to a new house / apartment when you get your new phone, and never bring the new phone to any previous low-traffic location you brought the old phone to.

justinclift•about 4 hours ago
If the person was deep enough into the system to have access to location data, then they'd probably be able to just directly look up customer details (likely easier).
hocuspocus•about 3 hours ago
Absolutely not. I have access to geo-located network telemetry. CRM data is completely off limit to anyone on my team.
calvinmorrison•about 4 hours ago
it's impossible for your precise location to be tracked by anybody... wow thats crazy
kenjackson•about 4 hours ago
What does this mean?
hocuspocus•about 3 hours ago
I'm sorry but this sounds like bullshit. As someone who has access to such data at a telco:

- Very few people have legit business cases requiring access to enriched network telemetry, at least non aggregated.

- Of which, only a handful have any reason to see the MSISDN in clear.

- Of which, none can get access to clear CRM data.

- Lawful interception and emergency services use completely separate paths, exposed via user interfaces that aren't available to employees.

And obviously, a simple email to the data governance and privacy office would be taken extremely seriously.

Also why not simply switch to a different phone operator?

hnthrow0287345•about 3 hours ago
I'm sure every single telco in the world is perfectly in line with this
Anonyneko•about 4 hours ago
This is just par for the course in Russia. Government has telcos track people, and that data ends up available on the black market for anyone to purchase, for a fairly modest fee. The government has been recently trying (with uncertain degree of success) to crack down on the latter, as this was frequently used by the opposition journalists and investigators to uncover the details of the government's own nefarious plots.

The data is cross-referenced with other telcos, other SIM cards, Wi-Fi hotspots (anonymous public hotspots are outlawed), street cams, and many other databases, so it's basically impossible to avoid being tracked.

Probably inevitable to become the norm everywhere in the world.

mentalgear•about 3 hours ago
> Gary Miller, one of the researchers who investigated these attacks, told TechCrunch that some clues point to an “Israeli-based commercial geo-intelligence provider with specialized telecom capabilities,” but did not name the surveillance provider. Several Israeli companies are known to offer similar services, such as Circles (later acquired by spyware maker NSO Group), Cognyte, and Rayzone.
Barbing•24 minutes ago
Help our security if you can!—

“Contact Us

Do you have more information about surveillance vendors that exploit cellphone networks? From a non-work device, you can contact Lorenzo Franceschi-Bicchierai securely on Signal at +1 917 257 1382, or via Telegram and Keybase @lorenzofb, or email[]”

Rob_Polding•about 3 hours ago
In my country 95% of people don't mind Meta tracking their location with WhatsApp, so I think the days of people caring about tracking are long gone!

I am the exception and believe in privacy, and I've not used a Meta app since I tested Facebook/WhatsApp back in 2010 and soon uninstalled them as I don't want a digital portfolio to be developed on me for advertisers. Same with Google, they can whistle for my personal information, but they won't get it!

I'm sure surveillance companies have an even easier time buying data from Meta/WhatsApp so that's even more worrying as people use different ISPs so 95% of people won't be traced by any one ISP, but Meta and Google have the location information of anyone gullible enough to use their services.

throwaw12•about 4 hours ago
> ... Israeli-based commercial geo-intelligence provider with specialized telecom capabilities ...

why are they good at these kind of things - security, hacks, surveillance, 0-days?

jeroenhd•about 3 hours ago
They are a country surrounded by countries that either dislike them or want them wiped from the face of the earth. It only makes sense that they have a significant intelligence and spying industry.

The genocide they're undertaking does place that industry in a whole new light, of course.

pjc50•about 4 hours ago
They run a mass surveillance operation so they can target individual people with exploding pagers. It's just another aspect of the longstanding war between Israel and Iran (via Hezbollah etc).
bakugo•about 4 hours ago
When your goal is to covertly subvert and take control of foreign nations, these sorts of skills tend to come in handy.
dfc•about 4 hours ago
I get a 404 when I try and view the CitizenLab report:

https://citizenlab.ca/research/uncovering-global-telecom-exp...

Danox•about 1 hour ago
Of course they are what could go wrong?
srameshc•about 2 hours ago
I was reading news this morning about Lebanese journalist killed in airstrike. I was thinking very likely she was tracked wherever she was taking shelter. These kind of surveillance probably helps track such people on large scale and we most of the time meh at such reports and think what have I to loose. But it is affecting everyone now, not some ambigious high profile targets, they are the people amongst us.
aa-jv•44 minutes ago
Tracking wasn't necessary in her case, she was already talking to Israeli forces prior to being murdered. They knew where she was by direct personal observation, which was then used to target her.
therobots927•about 1 hour ago
Coming soon to a city near you.

The goal is dominance and control of the poor by the rich.

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rurban•about 4 hours ago
They do have the death penalty now in Israel. So it might get interesting for those bosses
pprotas•about 4 hours ago
The death penalty was intended for Palestinians, not Israeli bosses
rurban•about 3 hours ago
sure, but when the tide switches to a far-left government they might use it against them.
dewey•about 4 hours ago
You forgot one important detail there.
faxuss•about 3 hours ago
Everyone does it, they just got caught.
Fokamul•about 2 hours ago
I like I live in country where SIMs can be bought without any verification.

Cops and agencies trying to change this, (buuhuuu someone bought anonymous SIMs in bulk and sold them on darknet)

Surprisingly, there was major public pushback, pretty unlucky for cops.

walrus01•about 3 hours ago
Why is the citizen lab report URL suddenly a 404?
lbcadden3•about 3 hours ago
I’m shocked, shocked I say!
voxadam•about 2 hours ago
Well, not that shocked.
therobots927•about 4 hours ago
Oh would you look at that: “Israeli-based commercial geo-intelligence provider with specialized telecom capabilities.”

Make no mistake, the people of Gaza and Lebanon are being used as guinea pigs for highly invasive surveillance technology that could easily be pointed at any of us if we step out of line.

And yes I said people of Gaza, not tellhullists as they’re referred to in Zion.

fchicken•about 4 hours ago
Color me shocked
arjunthazhath•about 4 hours ago
jesus christ!