8087 Emulation on 8086 Systems

iingve about 7 hours ago 19 commentsRead Article on os2museum.com

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wglb•about 4 hours ago

While I was at Mark Williams back in the day, the engineers wrote 8087 emulation floating point for the Mark Williams 8086 compiler. This involved some quality time with the Volume 2 of Knuth in the log division section.

dehrmann•about 2 hours ago

Fun trivia: Intel's PCI vendor ID is 8086.

xattt•about 5 hours ago

The article states that the 8087 was an expensive add-on.

Was this price point a deliberate market differentiator, or was there some special sauce within FPU that was otherwise difficult to attain?

Someone•about 2 hours ago

The 8086 had about 30k transistors, the 8087 about 65k.

⇒ I think it mostly was a matter of “that’s what it will have to cost at our typical margins”. Because you get lower yields for larger chips, that meant a larger than 65/30 multiplier.

stevesimmons•about 4 hours ago

Also, need to bear in mind that 25-30 years ago, laptops were 10x more expensive than today.

For my postdoc in 1995, my industry sponsor bought me a then top-of-the range Dell Latitude XP with 100MHz 80486, integrated 80487 coprocessor and 32MB RAM for radar signal processing research.

In Australia at the time, it cost A$10,000, as much as my car.

Even the 24MB RAM upgrade from 8 to 32MB cost USD1,200 ($2,500) in today's money. Which puts current complaints about the soaring cost of RAM into perspective!

hulitu•about 1 hour ago

But did those laptops had "special laptops CPUs" like today ? Or you got the same CPU like in a desktop ?

kalenx•23 minutes ago

It wasn't really necessary to have a special lineup of laptop CPUs because the base CPU power consumption was already low. 486 were using around 4-5W, if I recall correctly. Mobile CPUs really became necessary when the megahertz race started and power consumption increased to much higher levels.

bell-cot•about 5 hours ago

From a Marketing PoV, sure, it was a differentiator with special sauce.

But from an Accounting PoV, it was separate chip. With far more transistors than the 8086 CPU. And its cutting-edge (for the time) design and other fixed costs had to be spread over a far number smaller number of units.

kjs3•about 2 hours ago

was there some special sauce within FPU that was otherwise difficult to attain

Yes...um...it did floating point much faster than it could be done on the 8086. For some users, this was very important (and not particularly important to most others).

cameldrv•about 4 hours ago

As others said, the chip was more sophisticated than the 8088 itself, so it was fairly expensive. The original IBM PC (and pretty much all of the clones) came with an empty socket for the 8087. You could buy the chip and plug it in if you wanted the extra floating point performance. At the time, probably most people who bought it were using big spreadsheets, and it made using those much faster.

At that time, the idea of deliberately disabling features for market segmentation was seen as unseemly and an indicator of an illegal monopoly.

nxobject•about 1 hour ago

This is slightly more niche, but I know it was pretty popular with users of AutoCAD as well.

But I would imagine that, for DTP, rasterizing PostScript on the printer would make things a lot easier.

ErroneousBosh•about 5 hours ago

They were not made in especially large numbers and they were - look at Ken Shirriff's blog - way more complex than the 8088 chip.

Can't find "good" figures but they were apparently about $100 in 1980 money for an 8088 and about five times that for the 8087, something like that.

That'd be something like $400-odd and $2000-odd in today's money.

jcranmer•about 5 hours ago

I may be misremembering my source (an interview with the 8087 architect lead), but I want to say the die yield on the 8087 was like 30%... just barely feasible for Intel to actually make.

adrian_b•about 4 hours ago

The original 8087 had low yields not only because it had a greater area, but also because it was made with a special technology that was used in few other devices (VMOS), so it was more complex and there was less manufacturing experience with it than with the technology used to make 8086 (HMOS).

Later revisions of 8087 used a standard technology and a shrunk die, with improved yields.

dboreham•about 3 hours ago

It wasn't deliberate in the sense of deliberately making a second chip that wasn't necessary, selling it as some kind of dongle to unlock existing functionality in the 8086. It was a real chip that cost as much or more than the 8086 to manufacture. The sauce that was difficult to attain otherwise was hardware implemented FP. You could either buy an 8087 or design and fab your own equivalent. Or accept slow FP.

bombcar•about 5 hours ago

The interesting thing about the 8087 is that the co-processor interface was kind of generic. In theory you could have had things beyond just an FPU, but I don't know if much was ever done using it.

alnwlsn•about 4 hours ago

There was an 8089 I/O co-processor. I'm not sure what used it, maybe if you were making some kind of realtime data acquisition system?

bombcar•about 4 hours ago

It'd be fun to shoehorn some incredibly (relatively) powerful device as an 8086 copro - maybe an early GPU or something that could communicate slow enough.

bobmcnamara•about 4 hours ago

Pre-Cortex ARM CPUs were the same way.

Chips did fit crypto engines, matrix multipliers, FFT offload, and color converters there.