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#memory#string#language#don#still#code#std#management#languages#should

Discussion (64 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

wxw•about 9 hours ago
> As early as 1981, I pointed out that by reducing the number of objects that I had to keep track of explicitly from many tens of thousands to a few dozens, I had reduced the intellectual effort needed to get the program right from a Herculean task to something manageable, or even easy.

Fast forward a few decades, and we're still very much on this journey of finding the right abstractions/interfaces/libraries/languages. I feel like there must be a complexity equivalent to Parkinson's law: complexity expands to fill the space left in between abstractions.

shmolyneaux•about 8 hours ago
I think more people need to see this. This is how the creator of C++ thinks we should be writing code. This is what he thinks code should look like. To split a string by whitespace we should use `while (cin >> s)`. We should have a `typedef` in the middle of functions. Iterations should use `.begin()` and `.end()` everywhere. There might even be a bug with a trailing "+" appearing in the output?

Imagine if this was a new language that the dev community was seeing for the first time. It's hard to imagine it gaining much traction.

materielle•about 7 hours ago
If you want a laugh, Google a tutorial for how to read a file. You should also know that all the tutorials are wrong, because they fail to handle at least one footgun or another.

There is no “modern” alternative. If you read Reddit threads, C++ programmers actually believe that it’s a reasonable file reading API.

Most companies that I’ve worked at have just implemented our own on top of the OS syscalls. Which is annoying because it requires at least a Windows and UNIX variant.

Look, I like C++. I’ve been programming in it for years. But some of the stereotypes around C++ programmers are true. I still occasionally run into design decisions so untethered from reality that it still shocks me after all these years.

ahartmetz•about 6 hours ago
QFile is mostly fine (it's probably not the fastest, but not slow), and QString is pretty comfy for all kinds of string manipulation :)
my-next-account•about 6 hours ago
C++ has a filesystem API? TIL, never used it.
canucker2016•3 minutes ago
filesystem api was introduced in C++17
csb6•about 7 hours ago
The FAQ was mostly written before C++11 with some updates since then. I don't think he is rewriting every code snippet to match modern styles. It is an enormous FAQ and not meant as an introduction to the language.
jjmarr•about 6 hours ago
> Imagine if this was a new language that the dev community was seeing for the first time. It's hard to imagine it gaining much traction.

But it's not a new language. It's backwards compatible with C.

So "iterators" behave the same as pointers, since that's how you'd iterate through an array. You can add and subtract, then pass them to other functions.

You can't just have a function that returns a vector of strings, because that function would do an allocation. When is it deallocated? Before unique_ptr (the guide was written before), it'd be the caller's responsibility to manually do so.

Meaning you have to assign the output of that function to a variable every single time and manually remember to deallocated it or you get a memory leak.

C avoids this with `strtok` by destructively modifying the string in place. This is arguably worse.

If you were designing a new, non-GC, language, you'd have good ownership semantics and not allow pointer arithmetic. That'd be Rust.

WalterBright•about 2 hours ago
D doesn't allow pointer arithmetic in @safe code. At first it seems like that cannot work, but it works very well. Pointer arithmetic is relegated to functions that are @system.

The reason it works is because D has actual array types.

If you choose to use automatic memory management with D, you are memory safe.

eska•about 8 hours ago
Strange to see std::sort(), auto_ptr and RAII on the same page, when that combination was always broken.
tialaramex•about 8 hours ago
I actually don't know (at least I don't think I do) the full story here, can you elaborate?
eska•about 8 hours ago
auto_ptr was so misdesigned, they erased it from the language in a later standard. The problem was that the assignment operator “T x = y;” is supposed to have copy semantics, but auto_ptr gave it move semantics by overwriting the source to destroy that reference. This broke all sorts of code that rightfully assumed assignment is done by copying. Therefore all kinda of algorithms like sort broke, as well as resource management. Suffice to say I am personally not a fan of C++ language design or Stroustrup’s opinions on programming.
tombert•about 8 hours ago
Me neither.

I have some very smart friends who think it's the perfect language, but I kind of prefer almost every language that has come out after C++. I feel like the language adds some very strange semantics in some very strange places that can be hard to reason about until you've spent a lot of time with the language. This wouldn't necessarily be so bad if not for the fact that most people who write C++ have not spent sufficient time to understand it (and I consider myself in that group, though I don't write C++).

I have mixed feelings on D, but I'm very grateful that Rust came along. Rust is arguably even more complicated than C++, but the good thing is that getting a lot of these complications wrong will simply not allow your code to compile. It's a huge pain in the ass at first but I've become grateful for it.

I still write C very occasionally, but Rust has supplanted like 95% of jobs that were formerly C. I still really need to play with Zig.

HeliumHydride•about 8 hours ago
auto_ptr was effectively split into std::unique_ptr and std::shared_ptr. The problem was that before C++11, there wasn't a way to distinguish between copy assignment and move assignment.
tempaccount5050•about 5 hours ago
Holy shit, I didn't know that.

Circa 2004 I was in college and took a C++ class. I spent an entire week trying to get my final project working and couldn't for the life of me figure out what was wrong. It was only a few hundred lines and was like an employee record type demo. I spent about 3 hours one on one with the professor trying to figure it out. I remember that removing the auto_ptr stuff and using regular pointers would make it work (because the problem has to be with the pointer stuff right?), but part of the requirements was that I had to use auto_ptr because it was safer or whatever.

We tried compiling it on different systems and nothing would get it to work. He ended up giving me a C on the project admitting "it should work, but that doesn't cut it in the business world" or something to that effect which really pissed me off.

I just had a chat with GPT about this and that was almost certainly what was causing my program to segfault.

std::auto_ptr<int> a(new int(5));

std::auto_ptr<int> b = a; // a becomes null

Wild.

usefulcat•about 6 hours ago
auto_ptr is not used in the example that uses sort(), so "on the same page" is doing a bit of lifting here.

He's using auto_ptr to demonstrate RAII, which is fine. I would assume that the use of auto_ptr indicates that the example was written some time ago.

tialaramex•about 8 hours ago
> Modified February 26, 2022

So while a much older date is probably appropriate, maybe 20-30 years ago, we can at least mark this (2022) until somebody justifies a particular previous date.

olivia-banks•about 6 hours ago
It at least predates 2012, since the same text is seen on the this page's first archive on archive.org.
theanonymousone•about 8 hours ago
Thanks. I modified the title.
stephbook•about 5 hours ago
> How do I deal with memory leaks? > plug in a garbage collector.

Love it!

stackghost•about 2 hours ago
You can leak memory in Go, C#, and Java (all GC'ed languages) too. In fact, I've done it.

The real trick, in my experience, is to design your software with things like bounded queues or ring buffers, and to avoid manual memory management (new/delete). This works in C++ just as well as GC'ed languages.

One of my favorite consequences of LLM-heavy workflows (vibe-coding "make me a CRUD app"-style prompts aside) is that prompting the LLM forces the user to put at least a modicum of thought into how the software is actually architected.

jlarocco•about 4 hours ago
I don't know. Bjarne's has been saying for 40 years that C++ will eventually have opt-in garbage collectors written for it, but after all this time I don't think one exists yet unless you count C++/CLI.

For example, the 1987 edition of "The C++ Programming Language" (only 328 pages, including the index!) explains how the user can handle `new` failures with `set_new_handler` to "plug in" a garbage collection function that frees up memory and handles the failure.

And section 10.7 of "The Design and Evolution of C++", is titled "Automatic Garbage Collection", and covers in depth his reasons for not including a garbage collector, and explains a bit about how a plugin automatic collector might work. The TL;DR is that the hardware of the time was too limited and the performance overhead would have killed C++'s chances in its target market. He also posits that memory leaks "are quite acceptable" in many applications because most don't have to run forever and aren't "foundation libraries', but he's probably changed his mind on that by now.

stackedinserter•about 8 hours ago
What was the last time when Bjarne Stroustrup pushed any code to production?
thangalin•about 8 hours ago
In raw C, I like to use the "open"/"close" metaphor and when developing, invoke the routes in parallel. For example:

https://repo.autonoma.ca/repo/mandelbrot/blob/HEAD/main.c

When writing:

    fractal.image = image_open( fractal.width, fractal.height );
I will immediately write below it:

    image_close( fractal.image );
This hides memory allocations altogether. As long as the open/close functions are paired up, it gives me confidence that there are no inadvertent memory leaks. Using small functions eases eyeballing the couplings.

For C++, developing a unit test framework based on Catch2 and ASAN that tracks new/delete invocations is rather powerful. You can even set it up to discount false positives from static allocations. When the unit tests exercise the classes, you get memory leak detection for free.

(I don't mind down votes, but at least reply with what you don't like about this approach, and perhaps suggest a newer approach that we can learn from; contribute to the conversation, please.)

kstrauser•about 7 hours ago
> As long as the open/close functions are paired up

Let me stop you right there. I did not downvote you, but I bet that's why others did. If humans were capable of correctly pairing open/close, new/delete, malloc/free, then we could've called C's memory management "good enough" and stopped there. Decades of experience show that humans are completely incapable of doing this at any scale. Small teams can do it for small projects for a small period of time. Large teams on large projects over long eras just can't.

If the advice for avoiding resource errors includes "all the programmer has to remember is...", then forget it. It's not happening. Thus the appeal of GC languages that do this for the programmer, and newer compiled languages like Rust that handle resource cleanup by default unless you deliberately go out of your way to confuse them.

adampunk•about 9 hours ago
Remarkably similar to dykstra on debugging.
dstanko•about 7 hours ago
This is how I do it: Claude, how do I deal with memory leaks?
Panzerschrek•about 9 hours ago
Good arguments. But for some reason there are still strange people, who prefer calling malloc/free (or new/delete or something similar) manually. Some of them even invent languages with manual-only memory management (like Zig or Odin).
cv5005•about 8 hours ago
One reason is that c++ still hasn't gotten 'trivial relocatability' right - i.e being able to memcpy/memmove and not have to call constructors/destructors when growing your vector class.
Panzerschrek•about 8 hours ago
Actually, issues with non-trivial moves and relocations are specific only for C++. Some other languages (notably Rust and Swift) don't have such issues, but still have nice automatic memory management via destructors and containers atop of it.
Panzerschrek•about 8 hours ago
C++ compilers optimize-out empty destructor calls and sometimes even replace calls to move constructors/move assignment operators via memcpy. But it's unfortunately not guaranteed in all cases due to constrains of the C++ object/memory model designed initially without proper move semantics.
tardedmeme•about 5 hours ago
std::is_trivially_copyable says hi
tialaramex•about 8 hours ago
I'm no fan of Odin especially, but I'd expect that one obvious defence they'd offer is that this code potentially wastes a lot of resources and if you were writing in their language you'd more likely go "Wait, that seems like a bad idea..." and produce better code.

    cat += *p+"+";
Feels very cheap because it was so few keystrokes, but what it's actually doing is:

1. Making a brand new std::string with the same text inside it as `p` but one longer so as to contain an extra plus symbol. Let's call this temporary string `tmp`

2. Paste that whole string on the end of the string named `cat`

3. Destroy `tmp` freeing the associated allocation if there is one

Now, C++ isn't a complete trash fire, the `cat` std::string is† an amortized constant time allocated growable array under the hood. Not to the same extent as Rust's String (which literally is Vec<u8> inside) but morally that's what is going on, so the appends to `cat` aren't a big performance disaster. But we are making a new string, which means potentially allocating, each time around the loop, and that's the exact sort of costly perf leak that a Zig or Odin programmer would notice here.

† All modern C++ std::string implementations use a crap short string optimisation, the most important thing this is doing - which is the big win for C++ is they can store their empty value, a single zero byte, without allocating but they can all store a few bytes of actual text before allocating. This might matter for your input strings if they are fairly short like "Bjarne" "Stroustrup" and "Fool" but it can't do "Disestablishmentarianism".

Panzerschrek•about 8 hours ago
I agree, having nice containers with automatic memory management allows such problems. But this code still works as intended, but it has suboptimal performance. But I think, that it's still better to use an approach allowing such performance issues, rather then bugs specific for manual memory management (memory leaks, use-after-free errors, spatial access errors).

And it's still possible to improve performance here without returning to manual memory management. Just replace it with something like this:

    cat += *p;
    cat += "+";
Now no temporary string is created and thrown away, only cat performs memory allocations under the hood.
eska•about 8 hours ago
No need to insult people just because you don’t understand other strategies for reducing the amount of lifetimes to track and consolidating deallocations by using memory arenas.
Panzerschrek•about 8 hours ago
You can use some arena implementation in C++ too. But only when you need such an approach. If you don't care - just use std::string, std::vector or something similar.
eska•about 8 hours ago
The C++ standard library interface is broken regarding its abstraction of allocation (according to its authors). Therefore you in fact can’t just use arenas in C++ without giving up on large parts of its standard library and becoming incompatible with other code. The languages whose users you call strange don’t have this issue.