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Discussion (87 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

emptybits3 days ago
> "a quasicrystal — a kind of matter scientists once thought impossible that challenges traditional ideas about how solids form"

Whenever I read a phrase about scientists observing something they thought was impossible ... I get really excited for scientists in that field! :-)

spoll3 days ago
There's a wonderful book by one of the discoverers of quasicrystals, Paul Steinhardt, called "The second kind of impossible" which is a fantastic read and full of the excitement you alluded to. Very accessible and enjoyable.
kridsdale13 days ago
Science advances one “huh, that’s weird” at a time.
pseudohadamard2 days ago
Just a note, clathrates in general aren't rare or exotic at all, in fact methane clathrates are estimated in the million-cubic-km range. It's this specific type of clathrate, created under exotic circumstances, that's unusual.
dmurray3 days ago
What was special about the first nuclear test, rather than the thousands of others, at least hundreds of which were also in the Nevada desert?

Obviously it's historically significant, and the new forms of matter were first discovered there , so that's why trinitite is named after the site. But 80 years later, wouldn't we expect the other bomb sites to have just as many interesting chemical reactions?

dreamcompiler3 days ago
Availability is probably the answer.

I have some Trinitite. It's easy to obtain. You can buy it in rock shops, especially in the Southwest. Back in the day, when they opened the Trinity site to the public a couple of days a year, there was no prohibition on collecting Trinitite. That's why rock shops have it.

They still open the site to the public one or two days a year but they won't let you collect Trinitite any more. You can walk on it but don't try to put it in your pocket or a person with a gun will pull you aside for a chat.

https://www.nps.gov/thingstodo/alamogordo-visit-the-trinity-...

There's not much public access to the sites in Nevada; at least until the DOE resumes their bus tours and they're even more hard over about not letting you pick up anything.

https://nnss.gov/community/monthly-community-public-tours/

eesmith3 days ago
We do. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinitite#Similar_materials says "Occasionally, the name trinitite is broadly applied to all glassy residues of nuclear bomb testing, not just the Trinity test" and lists hiroshimaite and kharitonchiki as similar glassy residues from Hiroshima and the Semipalatinsk Test Site, respectively.

The general term for for the fused glass-like material formed during a nuclear test" seems to be "atomsite" - https://www.osti.gov/pages/servlets/purl/3001767 . Some images of atomsite from the Trinity and Semipalatinsk test sites are at http://www.radioaktivitaet.uni-bremen.de/downloads/Pittauero...

As a wild guess, what's special is it might be the easiest to get, with many samples to study.

kombookcha3 days ago
Adding to this, I seem to recall that the specific geological/chemical conditions on the site is consequential for the sorts of glass produced. So presumably, Hiroshmiaite and Trinitite would actually be physically distinct as a material.

As I recall, research on meteorite impacts use the similarly formed Impactite to deduce various things about ancient impact sites. As an aside, I think they also do really elaborate calculations of force and angle of impact based on surveying the spread pattern and distribution of these little glass chunks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impactite

therwex3 days ago
Probably no Hiroshiaite as the explosion there was at higher altitude of 580 meters. Trinity explosion was close to the desert surface (30 meters). The radius of trinite formation was about 300 meters around the tower so none would have formed at Hiroshima.
eesmith3 days ago
Yes, even the steel support structure and copper electrical wiring affect the trinitite composition.
comradesmith3 days ago
It’s probably just that more people are looking at the trinity site because of said historic significance
lightsighter3 days ago
The Trinity test took place in New Mexico, not Nevada.
Rover2223 days ago
"also in the Nevada desert" - huh? The first test was in NM. Probably irrelevant to your point, but...
frereubu3 days ago
> The clathrate’s “cage” shapes are 12-sided dodecahedrons and 14-sided tetrakaidecahedrons made of silicon atoms...

Totally OT but if "dodeca" means 12, why isn't 14 just "tetradeca"? What's the "kai" for?

adrian_b3 days ago
For the same reason why in English 12 = twelve, but 14 = fourteen. Not all numerals are formed by the same rule.

The correspondents of the -teen numbers in Greek were formed similarly with English, after the model of 14 = four and ten = "tetrakaideka".

"Tetrakaideka" is a contracted form of 14, normally used in compound words. When "14" was an isolated word, it would have been "tettarakaideka" or "tessarakaideka". These are the forms for the neuter gender, the numeral "4" = "tettara" or "tessara" (depending on the dialect) was changed by declension for other genders and cases.

In Ancient Greek numbers bigger than 20, the word "and" = "kai" was usually omitted, but then the bigger number was always the first like in "twenty-four". When "and" was inserted, then the order could also be inverse, like in "four-and-twenty".

normie30003 days ago
kai means "and"

I guess like asking why 120 is said "one hundred and twenty" in some dialects.

Maybe that's how 14 and 12 are written in Greek.

HighGoldstein3 days ago
The Greek term would be decatetrahedron.
adrian_b3 days ago
Ancient Greeks did not say "dekatetra" for 14, i.e. ten-four, but as it is correctly written in TFA, they said "tetrakaideka" for 14, i.e. "four-and-ten", which is actually close to English "fourteen".

For example, already Aristotle used "dipoda" (2-feet) for humans and birds, "tetrapoda" (4-feet) for other terrestrial vertebrates and "hexapoda" (6-feet) for insects. After the same model one can say "oktopoda" (8-feet) about spiders and "tetrakaidekapoda" (14-feet) about woodlice.

normie30003 days ago
Apologies - Ancient Greek!
frereubu3 days ago
Ah I see, thanks!
NoMoreNicksLeft3 days ago
Because the Greek word for 12 is something like "though-theka". And the word for 14 is "theka-tessera". Like most European languages, 11 and 12 are special, then it reverts to the "single digit - ten" or "ten - single digit" pattern.

"kai" is "and" in Greek.

gapan3 days ago
As the sibling comment already said "kai" (pronounced ke like in keg) just means "and". So it literally means 4 and 10 sides in greek. But I have often seen it written as τετραδεκάεδρο (tetradecahedron) in greek as well, so without the kai part. I'm not sure why it is 4 and 10 instead of 14 though. It would be more natural in greek that way (δεκατετράεδρο - decatetrahedron). Maybe it is for putting the distinctive part (4) first, or maybe it sounded more "poetic" like that to someone and then it stuck.
shever733 days ago
I think the three-and-ten, four-and-ten way of expressing numbers is primarily an ancient Greek thing. The modern numbers are expressed differently (δεκατέσσερα / dekatessara for fourteen, for example). In a lot of older European languages 11 and 12 behaved irregularly. You could argue that they do in English too (we don't have oneteen and twoteen).

I haven't read of any particular reason for this, but I'd posit that numbers up to twelve were more commonly used in everyday life, so shorter, irregular forms were easier to use and remember. Much like many of the irregular verb forms in spoken language happened because they were so commonly used.

The ancient Greek system also gave us triskaidekaphobia - the fear of the number 13.

gapan3 days ago
Indeed, in ancient greek they put the "δέκα" (ten) part second. Τρία και δέκα (13), τέσσερα και δέκα (14), πέντε και δέκα (15), etc, but 11 and 12 was (and still is in modern greek) irregular, έντεκα (enteka) and δώδεκα (dodeka) respectively.
shagie3 days ago
French has some weirdness to its counting. 11 - 16 is specific words, 17 - 19 is "ten {number}" (dix-sept, dix-huit, dix-neuf).

There's also some fun when you get to 70... which is soixante-dix (sixty ten)... and 80 which is quatre-vingts (four twenties)... and 90 as quatre-vingt-dix (four twenties ten).

Some dialects of French outside of France have changed how they count.

colechristensen3 days ago
There were plenty of base-12 number systems in Europe, one way of counting to 12 is using your thumb to count the bones in the other 4 fingers, one hand for the 1's digit, the other for the 10's digit.

12 being divisible by 2,3,4,6; 10 being divisible by 2,5 -- means base 12 is easier to multiply and divide to reach whole numbers.

onlypassingthru3 days ago
>we don't have oneteen and twoteen

But we do have duodecim, aka dozen. So we just need to add "onezen" to the current vernacular to make the set complete. Let's go team onezen!

beeforpork3 days ago
> "kai" (pronounced ke like in keg)

Ancient Greek spans several centuries of sound shifts and many dialects. It cannot easily be simplified into one specific pronunciation, particularly not one that is based on your specific dialect of English. Wiktionary has /kǎi̯/, /ˈkɛ/, /ˈcɛ/ and /ˈce/ for "καὶ".

gapan3 days ago
You don't have to span several centuries to witness that. "και" is pronounced in several different ways in modern greek as well. But that's besides my original point.
fhars3 days ago
Nobody would be so weird as to put the "four" first when pronouncing "14".

:-)

cratermoon3 days ago
Four score and seven years ago...
gapan3 days ago
Haha, right!
corkybeta3 days ago
Four and twenty blackbirds, baked in a pie.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sing_a_Song_of_Sixpence

autoexec3 days ago
> The only other known naturally forming quasicrystal was found inside meteorite fragments

Does it really count as "naturally forming" if we had to artificially construct and detonate a nuke during a carefully conducted experiment to create this one?

pocksuppet3 days ago
Well, it's more natural than something like a lab diamond. This one forms naturally given unnaturally created, but not completely implausible, conditions. There is a big difference between "we blew up rocks and they formed this mineral" and "we treated rocks with X acid and Y acid and then carefully annealed them under extreme pressure and they formed this mineral"
theowaway3 days ago
De Beers has entered the chat
kridsdale13 days ago
You don’t really love your wife unless you’re willing to detonate a nuclear device and wait for the half-life.
NoMoreNicksLeft3 days ago
If a beaver constructed and detonated the nuke, it'd still just be natural though.
autoexec3 days ago
I doubt many people would think that was natural and if the beaver wasn't killed outright for acting so unnaturally it'd probably spend the rest of its life in a lab being researched.
NoMoreNicksLeft3 days ago
You'd think that, but the beaver who does this is a nuclear power. Are you quite so sure you can keep him prisoner?
kridsdale13 days ago
Those industrious bastards need to be stopped before they get their paws on The Bomb.
rationalist3 days ago
How do we know the quasicrystals in the meteorite fragments are naturally occurring, and weren't created by nuclear detonations on an alien planet, then blasted off into space when an asteroid hit the site? Or perhaps the nuclear explosion was tested on an asteroid rather than a planet.
Towaway693 days ago
We’re a product of nature, it’s mistaken to believe we are above nature or that nuclear weapons aren’t also part of nature.

We’re also very much dependent on nature and natural forces.

So everything we do is, even if many steps removed, still an act of nature.

nkrisc3 days ago
With the influence of humans: artificial.

Without the influence of humans: natural.

There’s a useful definition for you. Otherwise according to your definition the term “natural” is completely meaningless and serves no purpose.

strogonoff2 days ago
If you pee on grass, does that make the dandelion that grows there later artificial? If you plant and grow a potato, is that an artificial potato?

The term “natural” is meaningless when used in ways like on “all natural juice” labels, because the line is arbitrary and suits whatever the argument is (usually by being a fancy substitute for “good”).

There are uses for the term, like in “natural sciences” (as opposed to philosophy, for example). Incidentally, the core limitation of natural sciences is related to the contention of “natural juice”: we are part of nature, and so when it comes to studying some aspects of nature it becomes circular and unproductively self-referential.

The line between ourselves and nature is paradoxical and it is worth pondering why we draw it at all.

SecretDreams3 days ago
All natural nuclear weapons has a nice ring to it ~ the OP.
conductr3 days ago
Here I have been thinking all these freeways and strip mall suburbs are organic growth of older cities. You mean a person designed this hellscape?? /s
autoexec3 days ago
Diamonds are also product of nature, but when we grow them in a lab they aren't often considered to be "naturally formed". It's just that the lab we used in this instance was part of the Jornada del Muerto.
dylan6043 days ago
> when we grow them in a lab they aren't often considered to be "naturally formed"

Isn't this solely because De Beers wants to keep the product of their mines artificially priced higher? So they come up with phrases to make lab grown diamonds sound less than the ones they mine?

leonidasrup3 days ago
Very small diamonds can be created using detonation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detonation_nanodiamond

cratermoon3 days ago
Side note: Jornado del Muerto translates to English as Journey of Death.
4gotunameagain3 days ago
This is a valid argument, albeit a pointless one.

We use the term natural specifically to distinguish between the.. natural and artificial.

A term like that is necessary.

lwhi3 days ago
I think sometimes the distinction is made between natural and artificial (human made) as a way to sway an argument. In many of these cases, the reasoning is tenuous if we examine with an understanding that the difference is sometimes arbitrary.

If anything, we should be more careful with our use of language. For instance; 'naturally ocurring' vs. 'human made'.

dylan6043 days ago
A similar one is synthetic. We've used that label for things like synthetic oil, but there are a lot of other things that are synthesized because it is too difficult to get the material naturally.
zelphirkalt3 days ago
One language usage question, and one content question:

"Melted sand"?? Isn't it "molten sand"? Is my hunch completely wrong, or is the author not a native speaker? Neither am I, but melted sand sounds so weird to my ears.

    This all happened in a matter of seconds, so atoms didn’t have time to arrange into stable structures,[...]
Isn't seconds kinda like ages at that scale? Atoms needing longer than seconds to arrange under super high pressure sounds also dubious? But I am no expert in that area.
thejohnconway3 days ago
To my ears “Molten” would imply that the sand is currently in liquid form. The sense ”melted” is used here, as having been melted, seems right. You melt sand to get molten sand, right?
zarzavat3 days ago
"Melted sand" sounds strange because English already has a word for that: "glass".
tetha3 days ago
"Molten" to me implies it is still liquid. Molten salt reactors, molten magma from a volcano, molten sand, molten steel, dipping something into molten cheese. All fluid.

If I was to nitpick, "melted" is kind of inaccurate and not entirely natural in this context. Technically, molten sand is also melted sand, because that's how you get it to that state? Usually, you'd hear about solidified magma, crystalized sand, cast iron, air-cast steel, unevenly settled corium... to make a better point on how it turned back into a solid and what to expect from it - something like "The molten sand crystalized into an unusual structure" would be clearer.

I'd usually rather hear "melted" if it is important to note that this had a phase change and back. Plastic on an electrical device may look melted, indicating heat. A hardened steel part may look melted, which may damage the hardening. Rubber on a hydraulic line may look melted, also indicating heat. A plastic container looking melted in the context of chemicals may indicate some compromise.

Now the words sound weird in my head. Thank you.

peyton3 days ago
The sand melted, yielding a type of glass. Melt emphasizes a change.
kashunstva3 days ago
It’s being used as a participial adjective here. I don’t think there’s much semantic nuance in the distinction between “melted” and “molten.” It comes down to common usage. “Molten sand” sounds more suitable to my ears, but “melted butter” also sounds better than “molten butter.” Odd, I think it’s part of a trend to replace the use of the past participle in some adjectival contexts. Maybe melted/molten is just an incomplete transition.
bandrami3 days ago
I think it's "molten" while it is still liquid but not once it crystalizes; at that point it's "melted"
rjp00083 days ago
Think of dropping a water balloon onto a pin. It pops instantly, but the water (like the temperature and overpressure) takes a while to dissipate into a puddle.
kleiba23 days ago
Sounds like the plot of a B movie...
rectangleboy3 days ago
Something like this came up in Robert R. McCammon's 1987 book Swan Song[1], one of the first novels to win the Bram Stoker award[2] for Best Novel (alongside Stephen King's Misery that year).

One of the survivors finds a glass ring (something like trinitite) among the post-nuclear-blast rubble of Saks Fifth Avenue[3] in New York and sees visions of the future (or something) through it.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swan_Song_(McCammon_novel) [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bram_Stoker_Award#External_lin... [3] my memories of this book may be embellishing this a bit....

Schiendelman3 days ago
Swan Song, coincidentally, is getting a pilot as a TV series. I'm not sure if it's gotten stuck in development hell or if it's actually going somewhere, it's only been 18 months or so since screenwriting started.
jdkoeck3 days ago
Interesting! Is it any good? Did it age well?
TurdF3rguson3 days ago
For God's sake man! You must learn to shield your thoughts from the crystals!
asimovDev3 days ago
Found footage movie, combining Trinity Test and Philadelphia Experiment maybe? I think it has legs
CodeArtisan3 days ago
The video game S.T.A.L.K.E.R is happening in the Chernobyl Exclusion Zone, an area filled with super natural anomalies and artifacts due to the radiation. A legend/rumor says that there is a special crystal granting any wish at the center of the zone, inside the power plant's sarcophagus. The existence of the crystal can't be verified because a cultist faction, The monolith, is preventing anyone to reach the center.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.T.A.L.K.E.R.:_Shadow_of_Cher...

meffmadd3 days ago
…or basically the plot of twin peaks
0xEF3 days ago
Or the start of a new cult?

Which could also result in a B movie, I guess.

josteink3 days ago
While the news is interesting in itself, I found the lack of illustrations disappointing.

When discussing new novel molecular structures, one would think providing a concrete visuals of what they look like more interesting than human-scale photos of materials containing them?

rafacribas3 days ago
The second image from the article looks like caelid map from elden ring
yieldcrv3 days ago
Oxen Free prequel incoming
yieldcrv3 days ago
Its not “where is the crystal” its “when is the crystal”
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