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#capability#system#capabilities#access#systems#file#security#operating#program#still

Discussion (90 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

Animats•2 days ago
PSOS. Now that was something I never expected to see again.

I'd worked on the previous system, KSOS, mentioned in the article. I wrote the file system and all of the drivers, while at an aerospace company. We'd used formal specifications in SPECIAL. Nobody could prove anything about SPECIAL yet, but I wrote a compiler-like syntax and type checker, so it was at least type valid. It was a good language for writing down invariants. I used it to describe file system consistency and recovery. Another group started work on PSOS, but never got past the design stage. I managed to avoid getting sucked into that, because it looked like a death march.

SRI, which was a think tank, just did abstract designs. It was extreme waterfall. One group wrote a spec, and a contractor implemented it. This did not work too well. They did have Boyer and Moore, and those two made real progress on proof systems. I used their prover for another project, and talked to them a lot. But they were not closely associated with PSOS. Specifications in SPECIAL, which is quantifier-oriented were not compatible with Boyer-Moore theory, which uses constructive mathematics and recursive functions.

The big problem in that era was that the hardware wasn't ready for secure operating systems. KSOS was for the 16-bit PDP-11 line, and it took a cram job to make it fit. The Modula I compiler wasn't very space-efficient. Optimizations had to come out to make it fit, and the result was too slow.

Microprocessors weren't quite ready yet. Neither Intel nor Motorola had a decent MMU. The suitable target machines were all minicomputers, which were on the way out. PSOS never got far enough to pick an implementation target.

Capability-based systems work, but they create a new problem - ticket management. You have lots of tickets which let some piece of software do something, and now you have to track and manage them. It's like physical key control. It's the same reason that Windows access control lists are little used. You also still have the delegation problem - A can't do X, but A can talk to B, which can do X. Most modern attacks involve that approach.

Most of the early secure OS work was funded by NSA. NSA had an internal division in those Cold War days - the important stuff was at Fort Meade, and the less-important stuff was some distance away at FANX, an annex out by Friendship (now BWI) Airport. FANX had personnel ("HR" today), training (including the cryptographic school), safe and lock testing and evaluation, networking, and computer security. Being exiled to FANX was bad for careers. This set back the computer security work.

There was also industry pushback. The operating system testing criteria were borrowed from the safe and lock people. Something submitted for testing got two tries. First try, the evaluators told the vendor what was wrong. Second try was pass/fail with no feedback. That's how locks for vaults were evaluated. Computer vendors (there was not much of a separate OS industry yet) hated this. They eventually got a testing system where "certified labs" did the testing, and a vendor could have as many tries as they were willing to pay for.

Some good secure OSs came out of that, and passed testing. But they were obscure, and for obscure hardware - Prime, Honeywell, etc. If you dig, you can find the approved products list from the 1980s.

What really killed all that was the growth of the computer industry. In the 1960s and 1970s, the government was the biggest purchaser of computers and electronics. As the industry grew, the government became a minor purchaser with a slow update cycle, and could not get design-level attention from major vendors. There was much grumbling about this from military people, especially the USAF, as they were sidelined during the 1980s.

Melkman•about 1 hour ago
I worked with embedded systems in the 90's and we used pSOS. Today I learned that there are two operating systems named that way that are targeted at different problems. The pSOS we used was heavily targeted to hard realtime performance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSOS_(real-time_operating_syst...
kibwen•about 21 hours ago
> You also still have the delegation problem - A can't do X, but A can talk to B, which can do X. Most modern attacks involve that approach.

On the contrary, the whole selling point of capability-based systems is that they're the solution to preventing these sorts of confused-deputy attacks.

nickpsecurity•2 days ago
Good overview except for the last part. I've heard multiple things from people of the time:

1. In "If A1 was the answer, what was the question," thr author pointed out that features and assurance levels were mandated together. Buyers often didn't need specific features which made it more costly and slow to develop for nothing. The festures the market demanded weren't present. So, TCSEC-certified, high security was unmarketable.

2. In a similar vein, Lipner's "Ethics of Perfectiom" talked about how it took two to three quarters to make a significant change to the VAX Security Kernel. The market was wanting major features every quarter. They couldn't afford to lag behind all the competition in velocity.

3. Another person mentioned changes in DOD (other government?) purchasing policy to order COTS products from many vendors. Those vendors were also sometimes paying campaign contributions or hiring ex-Pentagon people to be favored. Their products weren't TCSEC A1. So, corruption and supplier diversity both forced government agencies to use insecure products which made secure products less competitive.

4. Similarly, the NSA started pushing lower-assurance like CC EAL4 and later Commercial Solutions for Classified. They were also selling GOTS gear guaranteed to get their approval. In these ways, they caused a surge of low-assurance competition with high-assurance vendors.

5. They promoted, required expensive certs for, and basically killed the Seperation Kernel Protection Profile. Spending millions on something that ultinately didn't matter to them doesn't inspire more EAL6+ certifications.

So, those are the examples I remember.

usrbinenv•2 days ago
I understand why in 1979 and perhaps until mid 1990s capability OS architecture might have been irrelevant and excessive. But after that, it sounds like the only architecture suitable for the internet age, where you can download and run anything from anywhere. Instead, we're stuck with legacy systems, which now contain layers of layers of abstractions and security measures. User rights, anti-virus software, vetting (signatures, hashes, app-store verification) - all become obsolete or near-obsolete in a capability-based system where a program simply doesn't have access to anything by default. Part of the appeal of virtualization is also due to the fact that it isolates programs (for instance, I only run npm inside Docker container these days, because chances are some package will contain malware at some point).

Part of it is inertia, but part of it is ignorance. Enthusiasts spend tons of money and effort building another GPU enabled terminal or safe programming languages - and maybe that's fine, but I wonder what we could've accomplished if people were simply aware what a well-designed capability OS could be like, because this is literally the only OS paradigm in existence (that I know of) that's even worth any serious effort.

jdougan•2 days ago
If you go through old CS OS texts on the matter, they really didn't have the same understanding of capabilities then as the later object-capabilities (ocap) model would introduce. Typically they would show an access control matrix, note that acls were rows and capabilities columns and note that they are duals of one another. They're the same, acls are easier to manage, done.

OP is arguably the first paper that introduces ocaps. Some of the issues are discussed in "Capability Myths Demolished" https://papers.agoric.com/assets/pdf/papers/capability-myths...

jkhdigital•2 days ago
I’m not going to argue against much of the content of this paper, but it should be pointed out that their argument in the middle section against the “confinement myth” seems pretty bogus. They say that you can isolate the capability read/write resource from the data read/write resource, but… this makes absolutely no sense. Bits are bits. If you assume some out-of-band isolation of capability distribution then you’ve changed the game, but even that isn’t enough for me to believe that isolation is possible.
Animats•2 days ago
Early thinking was in terms of capability handles. As with file descriptors, the handle is only meaningful when passed across a protection boundary to something which can check if the handle is valid.

Later, there were encrypted capabilities, which are signed data, like TLS certs. These get kind of bulky. And hardware support, in a few machines.

ryukafalz•2 days ago
Consider two processes on a *nix system, and for the sake of argument let's say they're sufficiently isolated from each other as to have only one communications channel between them. If that communications channel is a unix domain socket, one process can send a file descriptor (effectively a capability) to the other over the socket. Each process has a file descriptor table in the kernel whose integer keys are only meaningful to that process in particular, and the kernel provides a mechanism to transmit file descriptors across a socket. The kernel mediates in this case.

If the communications channel is not a unix domain socket and is instead something like a TCP connection, you don't have this option available to you.

You aren't always just sending bits from one process to another!

adrian_b•2 days ago
That argument assumes that the delegation of a capability to another process must happen through a path of interprocess communication that can be established only by the operating system, if the processes that want to communicate have the capabilites for this.

I have not studied to see how the existing capability-based operating systems solve this problem, because it seems that this is not a simple solution. If the capabilities are very fine-grained, to make certain that IPC really cannot happen, that might be cumbersome to use, while coarse-grained capabilities could be circumvented. To really prevent IPC without appropriate capabilities, a lot of the convenient features of a UNIX-like system must be forbidden, like the existence of files that can be read by any user, or directories like /tmp , where anyone can write a file.

zzo38computer•about 16 hours ago
They mention a compiler having access to a file called BILL for storing billing information and if you specify that it is the file for debugging then it is overwritten by the debugging information. While an appropriate kind of capability system (such as proxy capabilities, or object-capabilities described in that article which is very similar) can help, locking the file might also help (if it is locked for billing first before any files specified by the user are locked); then the compiler will complain that the file specified as the debugging output file cannot be written because it is locked (even though the compiler is the one that locked that file). A capability system is better, although it would be possible to do both, since locks (and transactions as well) are also helpful for other purposes.
killerstorm•2 days ago
We kind of have the taste of what capability-based OS would look like in form of a web browser: you can open a web page with a potentially-malicious code and it doesn't have access to any of your files or sensitive data unless you explicitly allow it to.

We also have it on mobile operating systems, although some things are a rather coarse-grained.

On desktop there's just a lot of inertia. Everyone switching to a new thing is kind of impossible, and some simple add-on to existing systems would look like containers/docker.

I think capability-oriented programming languages might actually be an easier way to switch to that model, as it's much easier to adopt a new application than a new OS. E.g. with language-level capabilities (ocaps) you can implement a safe plugin system. That's pretty much non-existent now and is quite relevant - e.g. getting pwned via an IDE plugin is the reality.

So maybe a "new Emacs" can be a way to get people to adopt capabilities beyond what we already have in the browser/cloud/etc. - IDE written in a new programming stack which is inherently secure to the point of running potentially-unsafe plugins.

mike_hearn•2 days ago
None of those things become obsolete with capabilities.

You still need code signing because users need to be able to grant privileges in a way that sticks across upgrades. The object they want to privilege isn't a set of files on disk but a logical app as defined by (more or less) a brand name+app name even as it changes over time.

You still need antivirus software because users can be tricked into giving capabilities to programs that appear legit but are actually malicious.

Modern operating systems (iOS, Android) are capability oriented operating systems to the extent that makes sense. For some reason there's a meme that says capabilities are a magic wand that solves all security problems, but it's not the case.

vlovich123•2 days ago
Yeah not least of which because statically defined capabilities struggle when you have dynamic needs. Imagine you have S3 buckets. If your buckets are partitioned by application, that’s easy to protect with capabilities. Now what if you have an application that’s dynamically assigning buckets by tenant. You can’t statically assign that and you can’t even restrict yourself to buckets you created in the first place because you need a meta system to keep track of which buckets were created by which application but it’s doable (eg store data within the bucket indicating which app). But now you’ve got delegation challenges if you have two applications that need access to overlapping resources. There’s no consistent design solution. Everything is a special case to figure out.
zzo38computer•about 18 hours ago
I think many people have had similar ideas, including I also had ideas about how to design computer and operating system, which can use proxy capabilities. (There are different kind of capability systems, and I think that proxy capabilities has more benefits than only security.)

There are still considerations when designing parts of the system to be secure, while also making them have the functions that are desired (although a proxy capability system can be used to add arbitrary further restrictions if needed), but the core system can use proxy capabilities as the core security system.

Hashes would still be useful, but that is if you want to check that the package is the one that you intended; it does not prevent you from installing or writing whatever program you want to do, nor to make the program secure, which would be done by separate mechanisms; however, knowing that the package is the one that you intended can be one of the steps of the security, but not the main one.

However, security is not the only issue in a computer and operating system design, although it is a significant issue.

haunter•2 days ago
> it sounds like the only architecture suitable for the internet age, where you can download and run anything from anywhere

Wasn’t that the reason why Microsoft went allout against Java? Write once, run anywhere. JVM was a “trojan horse” and theoretically could have dominated the world.

usrbinenv•2 days ago
I didn't mean it in the Java way. I meant that whatever operating system you're on, you can download random programs from the internet (compiled specifically for your OS or portable) and run it on your machine. It doesn't matter what they're written in or how they're run, it's possible on any OS connected to the internet and an OS with capabilities as first class citizens would isolate any program by default, denying it access to anything by default and severely limiting program's ability to cause harm, intentionally or unintentionally.
mech422•2 days ago
I'll insert my standard plug for Genode/Sculpt OS here... Capability based, and used/maintained commercially:

https://genode.org/

rurban•2 days ago
I also like HarmonyOS, the most advanced secure OS nowadays. If they just would have fixed deadlocks also.
mech422•2 days ago
Never heard of HarmonyOS before - looking at the website, it doesn't seem to mention being capability based, but it is 'distributed' ??
myaccountonhn•2 days ago
Why do signatures/hashes/app-store verification become obsolete with a capability-based system?

If a binary has the capability to withdraw money from my account, I don't want that capability given to just any binary.

usrbinenv•2 days ago
In case of updating the binary, yes, you generally want to make sure it comes from the same source and therefore cannot do damage to things it already has access to. But when you install a new program, it shouldn't have access to any resources other than the ones it creates itself, so there's no need to sign it. Further more, when installing a new program, you still have to download/import the pubkey to verify the signature from somewhere, so it's almost meaningless on the first installation. Signatures wouldn't be obsolete, but they also wouldn't be the only line of defense. Furthermore, updating can now be performed by the program itself and the program might already contain the pubkey needed to check the validity of updates.
Joel_Mckay•2 days ago
The Market has spoken, and people use standard consumer CPU/GPU-bodge architecture in cloud data centers. Sure there are a few quality of life features different from budget retail products, but we abandoned what Sun solved with a simple encrypted mmu decades ago.

The paper adds little to TCSEC/"Orange Book"/FOLDOC publications. Yet the poster doesn't deserve all the negative karma.

On a consumer CPU/GPU/NPU, software just isn't going to be enough to fix legacy design defects. Have a great day. =3

convolvatron•2 days ago
in larger systems the utility of sharing a single cpu/gpu complex between independent authorization domains kind of goes away. if you have 10,000 units of allocation, it never makes sense to try to share one of those until you have more than 10,000 jobs, and even then.

so it seems a lot more feasible to control access and sharing between those units and write of off the intranode case as a lost cause

Joel_Mckay•2 days ago
In such arrangements, one has essentially enforced high-latency similar context isolation using encrypted/VLAN network fabric, and pushed coordination/permissions into back-plane supervisory subsystems. Still creating a monolithic permission domain vulnerability within the entire n<10000 node cluster partition.

Likely doesn't help OS users either way. Best regards =3

ebiederm•2 days ago
In addition to capabilities, which implemented the principle of least privilege (and keep untrusted code sandboxed by default) there is a need for binary verification.

A check that a whatever is downloaded cannot exceed it's capabilities.

Part of the challenge is that hardware tried and has failed to be trustworthy in implementing security boundaries. The failure appears to be because a misalignment of incentives.

I think the premise of a capability based operating system can help a lot, but for something to work in the long term the incentives need to aligned.

wmf•about 18 hours ago
binary verification. A check that a whatever is downloaded cannot exceed it's capabilities.

That's already handled by the sandbox.

philistine•2 days ago
Your point of view has an insidious lie at its core; that the user perfectly knows what she wants. That if we only give the user the ability to set capabilities, we will not need any other protection for her.

The reality is that we're water meatballs, we're so easy to fool, and we need the cold calculating power of code to protect us from ourselves.

fsflover•2 days ago
It looks like you you may be interested in Qubes OS, security oriented operating system relying on strong, hardware-assisted virtualization: https://qubes-os.org. My daily driver, can't recommend it enough.
usrbinenv•2 days ago
I know about it, but I'm not interested in QubeOS approach. It's VMs all the way down, while what I'm talking about is no VMs and capabilities as first class citizens and no vurtualization.
cosmicriver•2 days ago
I am also surprised that capabilities weren't more widely implemented after mobile OSes demonstrated they are practical. I know Windows made a move in that direction with UAC but had to soften it due to user alert fatigue. So I guess having no legacy apps and a centralized repository helps.

I've recently been looking into Guix SD as a solution. Its package management is designed to keep programs independent of each other, so containers are cheap and lightweight. Trying out untrusted software is as easy as `guix shell --container --pure --no-cwd [program]`, which blocks access to the network, file system, and environment variables. Right now I'm adding more advanced capability management: limits on CPU, memory, storage space, network use, etc.

fsflover•2 days ago
What is wrong about virtualization? It allows to run all existing software, it doesn't restrict the owner of the device, it is extremely flexible and reliable. And it can be fast, too.
Joel_Mckay•2 days ago
Qubes OS was also shown to have inherent hardware virtualization sandbox vulnerabilities described by Joanna Rutkowska in an interesting lecture.

There is likely a PoC around someplace if people dig a bit. =3

mghackerlady•2 days ago
OS design basically stagnated in the 90s. Sure, we had NT, but that was putting a dos flavoured suit on VMS. BeOS was promising, but fizzled out quickly. Everything else has either been research or for the embedded market.
ahartmetz•2 days ago
Android and iOS increased security, but at the cost of much flexibility and user agency. It's some kind of progress, but I certainly wouldn't want them for Real Computers.
mghackerlady•2 days ago
Android is just Linux running a Java VM and a funky userland. iOS is just MacOS apple decided you can't do real work on. Both are still unix clones (as contrast to a unix-like like plan9 or haiku)
pixel_popping•2 days ago
One word: Qubes.
rurban•2 days ago
Qubes for sure not. Xen seperation on top of Linux sounds nice, but there's still this huge, insecure monolith below. Genode, Harmony or Fuchsia sound much better. And now with a secure language for the surface and drivers it would be even better.

But even better no OS, and no attack surface. Only what you need, and properly isolated.

pocksuppet•2 days ago
The problem with any secure system is that they're not usable systems. Real applications and users expect to access anything from anywhere. That's the opposite of security.
amavect•2 days ago
One of my friends had his credentials stolen from a trojan infostealer masquerading as a video game, sent from a rando who he mistakenly trusted. If only it had to request user permission to access files outside of its folder. There's a spectrum between full access and full lockdown.
pocksuppet•2 days ago
If every app requests that permission, no app requests that permission. Also your passwords would be in your user folder so the app that needs the passwords could read them.
ryanshrott•2 days ago
PSOS's capability-based architecture was way ahead of its time. The core idea, tag memory with unforgeable access tokens at the hardware level instead of leaning on software-defined access control lists, is finally getting real implementation, forty-plus years later. seL4 is the obvious modern inheritor. It’s a formally verified microkernel where capabilities are the basic access primitive. The seL4 team proved, in Isabelle/HOL, that the kernel's C implementation matches its formal specification exactly, no buffer overflows, no null pointer derefs, no privilege escalation. That’s the PSOS vision, actually built. CHERI, out of Cambridge and SRI, and a bit ironically building on the same institution's heritage, pushes the idea into hardware: 128-bit fat pointers with encoded bounds and permissions, enforced at the CPU level. ARM's Morello prototype showed this in silicon. A CHERI-extended CPU literally can’t forge a pointer outside its authorized memory region, the hardware traps it. The frustrating part is Miagg's point, we had the blueprint in 1979. What killed capability systems wasn’t technical, it was the Unix monoculture and the network effect of "good enough" security. Now we’re slowly rediscovering capabilities under names like "object capabilities" and "hardware enclaves." Better late than never, tbh, but it’s hard not to wonder what the internet would look like if PSOS's architecture had won.
sillywalk•2 days ago
> The core idea, tag memory with unforgeable access tokens at the hardware level instead of leaning on software-defined access control lists, is finally getting real implementation, forty-plus years later.

The IBM System/38 did this around the same time, along with its successor - the AS/400. When the AS/400 switched to POWER (or PowerPC AS), they started using standard RAM, but are still able to have a tag bit for each 16byte(?) pointer using ECC, but the instructions to do that aren't privileged. The AS/400 or "i" as it's now called is still around.

nickpsecurity•2 days ago
Veserv•2 days ago
The difference between ambient authority systems, like Windows and Linux, and capability systems is the difference between a program that only uses global variables and a program that uses local variables and function parameters.

In a capability system, you pass resource capabilitys to subsystems. You can not use resource handles that were not passed to you just like a function can not access variables that were not passed to it (except for explicit global variables.

In ambient authority systems, as a common example, you can just blindly convert what are effectively strings into resource handles (the metaphorical equivalent of casting integers to raw pointers). Your access is mediated by a orthogonal system that tells you which resource handles/pointers you are allowed to use. That is like having a program that runtime checks every pointer access is allowed instead of just preventing you from manufacturing pointers.

You coordinate across subsystems by naming certain resources in the global ambient space in a coordinated fashion (effectively a global variable which is basically just a named memory location in the common memory space). That way the subsystem knows the global you put their parameters/resources in.

While you can still program like that, everybody now knows it is a terrible way to live. Parameter passing and local variables with explicit global variables is almost always the way to go. That same lesson should be learned for operating systems.

amavect•2 days ago
I too would like an OS where called programs don't need to call open() on strings. The shell already has <input >output redirection, but hamstrung so few ever use them. So many programs recreate the functionality with -i -o in some manner to make up for the flaws (read multiple inputs, avoid creating a file on error). Graphical programs could request a fd from a trusted file picker instead of requesting a string to call open() immediately after. That just scratches the surface, so much security and convenience to gain.
userbinator•about 19 hours ago
The foundations of corporate-authoritarian dystopia.

I don't think the authors had that in mind when they wrote this, but to look back at and imagine a future where such things had taken hold is truly scary.

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

lkos•2 days ago
I would honestly like to understand why Miagg's comment has been flagged.
dmoy•2 days ago
Might be people just flagging so mods can make an "Is this an LLM not?" determination. I see a lot of new accounts get flagged like this (and scanning the previous comments, ehhhhh yea maybe?).

Idk, just guessing

jdougan•2 days ago
At a guess, looking at his history, it's AI slop. Basic facts appear correct though.
darkwater•2 days ago
Which history? it's their only comment.

It's probably a bot nonetheless, which poses the question: why do people do that? What do they gain by posting resume comments on HN with LLM bots?

jdougan•2 days ago
I'm seeing about 9 comments, all flagged dead. Do you have showdead on?
deterministic•1 day ago
If you are interested in this I highly recommend studying SeL4. A practical industrial proven correct micro kernel used by billions of devices worldwide.
GistNoesis•2 days ago
My modern take on (un)secure operating system for the future : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48167846

Rebuild everything from scratch, with AI agents. Then make them prove what they wrote.