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#workers#billionaires#money#more#unions#samsung#union#tech#don#average

Discussion (190 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

OsrsNeedsf2Pabout 15 hours ago
That's literally insane for Korean living standards. Those people can basically retire
BobbyTables2about 14 hours ago
I think it’s insane anywhere. Would have to put about 15-20 years worth of bonuses to reach that amount…
barumrhoabout 15 hours ago
That's a bit of a stretch, but the number is bigger than I expected!
cayleyhabout 3 hours ago
I guarantee the "median" payout is nowhere near that. The article said the average pay is 158 million won. I bet the median pay is less than half that.
Adiqqabout 15 hours ago
Imagine the world, where instead of making billionaires and trillionaires, we would actually share with society. Providing affordable products/services to common people. Decommodification of life.

There's no money for public investments, but there is always money for wars. There's no money for raises and bonuses for workers, until workers show there's no company without them.

So, if there's no money for public investments, it's time to show there's no public for their wars and exploitation.

aetherspawnabout 14 hours ago
Engineers are awful at advocating for themselves, and that’s why they study and work twice as hard as lawyers and finance, have less perks (travel, food, cars, private offices) yet they get paid half as much.
energy123about 14 hours ago
The majority of people in finance are working in low paid back office or retail roles. Less than an engineer on average. You only hear about the outliers.

These finance jobs are low paid because they're not that skilled and many people can do them. Same basic reason as why fast food temp worker is low paid.

recursivedoubtsabout 14 hours ago
Most engineers who advocate for themselves would simply be fired. Job hopping was the way to get your salary up fast previously.
jimbob45about 13 hours ago
Is anyone really upset by billionaires having their money tied up in assets? It goes against the public good to force someone to break up a public company just so that the owner has less assets on their balance sheet. Aren’t you really just mad at leveraged assets? Even non-billionaires can damage the public good doing that.
bmn__about 9 hours ago
You were downvoted as a punishment because you made a retarded argument and HN users saw fit to not engage with words.

No billionaire is forced to break up a public company to pay taxes, the same as no average Joe is forced to sell his clothes to pay taxes. The idea in common is that if one knows that one must have cash at the end of the fiscal year, then one sets aside the money and simply avoids buying clothes or investing in assets.

arjieabout 14 hours ago
People are billionaires because they “share with society”. They take a small fraction of the wealth and surplus they create. If you create $6 of value for every American and capture half of it you are a billionaire.

“Public investments” besides are heavily spent on. The majority of the US federal budget goes to welfare. If you want new infrastructure and so on, the primary blockers are the universal veto powers we hand normal people.

js8about 13 hours ago
If they want to "share with society", it's nice, but they can do it after taxes, just like everyone else.

Even if a rich person reinvests everything, the control over large amount of money is what makes it problematic.

Also the idea that welfare doesn't go to investments is wrong. When you buy groceries (or anything really), there is a decision made by the management of the company you buy these things from to reinvest part of it to maintain or build productive capacity.

There is no need for a "capitalist" (owner of the enterprise) to insert themself into the process, they are useless middlemen who get a cut, essentially. (They are not so useless when they do actual managerial work, but then they can be just an employee like everyone else.)

saghmabout 14 hours ago
> People are billionaires because they “share with society”. They take a small fraction of the wealth and surplus they create.

That's certainly an opinion that some people have, but as the parent comment stated, companies don't run without employees, so the idea that the value created is solely attributed to the founders or other executives is not an empircal fact like you're claiming it is. There's no scientific formula for "how much of this result of a bunch of actions that multiple people took over the course of a few years is attributed to each of the people"; the only way to have any sort of objective delineation of that like you're describing is if you already bake in assumptions of how valuable each piece is before you've started, which just moves the opinions one later deeper.

I can't prove you wrong any more than you can prove the parent commenter wrong, because what you've said is based on so many premises that I fundamentally agree with that seem like universal laws to you.

gloxkiqczaabout 14 hours ago
In an ideal capitalistic world billionaires are people that provide most value to society, yes. In the real world it’s questionable to say the least because they usually do not do fair win-win business, they do cutthroat “I’m gonna abuse my position to the absolute limit, what are you gonna do about it, you have no other choice” business. People that don’t do that don’t end up billionaires because they can’t compete with those that do.
onion2kabout 14 hours ago
People are billionaires because they “share with society”.

I appreciate that this is a flippant remark, but there are crypto billionaires proving that there are exceptions to this assertion.

antirealistabout 13 hours ago
I think this is essentially correct. I'm sorry you're getting downvoted. I think there seems to be a prevailing attitude here (and in the world in general) that making money is 0 sum and you get it by taking taking it from others, rather than the reality (in free-ish, market-ish economies) that most people make money by adding value to other people's lives and being voluntarily paid for that value. Similarly there's a sentiment that policies are bad because billionaires lobby politicians, as opposed to that most people want terrible policies (though the lobbying can definitely be bad).

I guess one important nuace is that it's not all billionaires for whom this is the case. You have lots of Carlos Slim style 'get a government monopoly and collect the rents'. So it's a bit messy.

vascoabout 14 hours ago
Pro-tip: more often than not people are billionaires because their parent was a billionaire or multi millionaire
ndsipa_pomuabout 10 hours ago
Almost all billionaires are parasites who don't really "create" anything except figure out ways to either game the money markets or underpay employees.

There's also all the various shenanigans they employ to avoid paying a fair share of tax, so they're mainly "stealing from society".

The level of wealth hoarding by certain people would be classed as a serious mental illness if they were hoarding something else, but it's actually far more damaging to the rest of the world that they hoard wealth.

throwaway894345about 14 hours ago
Billionaires extract a vast amount from the economy and pay a tiny fraction of that back in. It’s not “creating value” to replace millions of middle class retail jobs across the country with tens or hundreds of thousands of largely poverty line jobs and parking the delta in shareholder investment accounts.

Without billionaires, money stays in the community where it circulates (workers and small business owners make money and they spend it). With billionaires it is extracted from the communities and hoarded in investment accounts a thousand miles away.

Carrokabout 14 hours ago
> People are billionaires because they “share with society”. They take a small fraction of the wealth and surplus they create.

I truly cannot believe that anyone with an ounce of empathy or integrity could possibly believe a statement as absurd as this.

Sam6lateabout 11 hours ago
It is the unions not Samsung's generosity; As union membership declines, inequality rises in the US while in Korea they are a force to be taken into consideration.
giantg2about 8 hours ago
If you're in manufacturing and have a union in the US, there's a good chance your job just gets shipped overseas unless it's some sort of protected job that can't legally be done overseas (some defense stuff).
kubbabout 14 hours ago
You can retire in Korea on 200K after tax?
jeronabout 13 hours ago
CoL outside of Seoul is ridiculously cheap
kubbabout 12 hours ago
Apparently a single person can live in Busan on 1500 USD per month. 200k buys you 11 years, not accounting for inflation and COL increase.

A 40 year old person can’t retire on that money.

iioiioabout 14 hours ago
If a person has already made progress on their retirement goals, then an additional 200K can certainly help to reach the goal faster.
kubbabout 12 hours ago
That’s trivially true always and everywhere haha
ozimabout 14 hours ago
I think if they retire Samsung loses bunch of knowledge that is required for keeping lights up.

I don’t think they will be allowed to retire.

neyaabout 14 hours ago
They probably slogged to death before this and finally are recouping what they were owed over their lifetime if you put things into perspective. I feel happy for them and hope they use it wisely and actually retire.
thrownthatwayabout 13 hours ago
> recouping what they were owed

I’m just a dumb blue collar worker, but I’m going to go with “No” here.

They were only ever owed what they agreed to work for.

Now, that’s changed and they negotiated a different agreement.

They were never owed this until both parties agreed they were.

mikeweissabout 13 hours ago
I don't think it was meant to be taken so literally.
ChoGGiabout 16 hours ago
Finally, some feel good news about AI.
nielsbotabout 15 hours ago
From our laid off workers pockets to Samsung employees’!
dannywabout 14 hours ago
That seems like false equivalence. The overall economy is not zero sum.
nielsbotabout 9 hours ago
no--i was just making a slightly silly point about tech companies 1) laying off workers and 2) spending that cash on infrastructure (including chips) which goes to 3) Samsung and in this case 4) its workers.
bayarearefugeeabout 16 hours ago
Meanwhile tech workers in the US spend all day online defending billionaires who wouldn't piss on them to put out a fire and arguing about why we can't have unions because blah blah blah rugged individualism.
xyzzy123about 16 hours ago
I find this complaint hard to square when US developers earn "moon money" compared to both: a) fields requiring similar levels of expertise like EE or Mech-E and b) international developers in similar roles. Plus, equity.

[GIF of Woody Harrelson wiping tears with money]

bayarearefugeeabout 15 hours ago
The vast majority of tech workers in the US make nowhere near FAANG-money and have never had meaningful equity.

Also the fact that people in group $X are getting screwed more than people in group $Y is no reason not to fight to not get screwed if you are in group $Y.

LPisGoodabout 15 hours ago
Professional athletes and pilots have unions. They both make considerably more than your average programmer, even in FAANG and even with equity.
conductrabout 14 hours ago
This leverage all has to do with the product, how close you are to it and how valuable it is. FAANG product is valuable, but the programmers are still just creating it and usually a small part of it at that. Pilots are the product when the product is "get plane to destination" they are the 1 or 2 people providing that product (ok service). Athletes are the product of sports. It's very valuable and there's only a dozen or so of them to deliver.

Now, using the leverage is the difficulty to unionize. Athletes are a tiny group, pretty easy to organize. Pilots are a small group, also pretty easy to unionize. The fact they have to be licensed means there is a record for all the people needed pull in. Software engineers seem to be 5x-20x larger population than commercial pilots (quick/rough searches). They have no certification or registry organization and have no common affiliations. It's incredibly difficult to organize this group. There's also no regulatory capture requiring developers to be US citizens so, if you did unionize and tried to negotiate too hard the industry would just move away from the US so there's just not a lot of leverage this profession has.

ponectorabout 12 hours ago
Simply because it's not that easy to offshore them to India.
xyzzy123about 14 hours ago
These "unions" in high paying fields behave more like guilds or cartels than worker's unions - they generally restrict supply. Athletes and Hollywood unions are sort of special cases too, IMHO. I don't think it's reasonable to claim that top earners in those fields earn so much because of their unions - they benefit from natural supply restriction of outliers.

For unions to be as effective in tech as for say pilots or doctors, you'd have to agree on a way to restrict supply (H1B restrictions, more licensing and credentialling etc) to give the union leverage. You have to control the supply taps and rate limit entry to the field.

I think it's hard to say if this would net out better for workers than the current arrangements, which are already the best in the world on nearly every metric.

It also seems like there's a timing issue - if tech workers DID successfully unionise enough to withhold a meaningful fraction of labour, the gains might ultimately end up in the market cap of AI companies via substitution.

hvb2about 13 hours ago
Its very simple. Look at the profit margins of those companies, there's simply a lot more to share.

If you don't need to buy a product to make a product, or when you have to that's typically pennies on the dollar you can share a lot more of that.

The real difference here is that when the market is favorable you CAN share more. And Samsung is doing so. In the US you probably wouldn't be able to do this because the shareholders will cry and will happily give a 100M bonus to whoever will 'lead' the company better. Where better means diverting as much as possible to the shareholders

KennyBlankenabout 14 hours ago
The US has some of the highest levels of wealth and wage inequality in the developed world, and it's never had greater economic stratification in 1-2 lifetimes.

The number of people making "moon money" is very, very small compared to everyone else in the industry.

dfxm12about 14 hours ago
Why are you pitting workers against each other?

Developers don't set EE wages. It's always the management class that is the source of your woes, not your fellow workers. We're in this together.

nokuabout 14 hours ago
It's not pitting workers against each other to point out that the conclusion of the argument doesn't follow from the premise.
sanxiynabout 16 hours ago
The union makes us strong.

-- A proud programming union worker in South Korea since 2018.

phil21about 16 hours ago
What’s an average nvidia “tech employee” worth today? How about compared to their base salary vs. Samsung line workers?

You have a point. But on this precise topic it’s pretty hard to make. A tiny handful of companies who are winners beyond anyone’s expectations simply do not matter.

There is exactly zero percent chance this profit sharing contract would have been negotiated by either party as it is if this had been remotely predicted in advance. Same as the retrospectively extremely lucrative RSUs granted to nvidia employees just five years ago.

Tech folks employed by the top tech companies have been fine. I do not cry even a minute for them. The fun part of the Korean memory worker compensation is that blue collar folks finally are getting just a little bit of the taste the laptop class has been part of for so long. And it is likely to be comparatively very fleeting.

skybrianabout 15 hours ago
It would be ungrateful to complain after earning enough in stock options and RSU's to retire early.

(It sounds like the union got a great deal for these workers, though.)

nielsbotabout 15 hours ago
are you saying workers should show gratitude to their employers?
skybrianabout 15 hours ago
Yes, if you're treated well. It was a fair deal. More than fair, generous. I can't point to anything I did that was worth so much.

You seem surprised? Do you know how things (sometimes) work in Silicon Valley?

tasukiabout 10 hours ago
I think I have shown gratitude to all my employers. They have invariably treated me well, and I believe the relationships were mutually beneficial.

If you do not feel gratitude to your employer I suggest you find a different one. If you cannot find such an employer over an extended time frame, perhaps the problem is you.

cloverichabout 3 hours ago
Doesnt need to be tech. My blue collar UPS worker friend is all in on down with regulations, and claimed if anything we meed MORE billionaires. Many in America see regulation and taxes in all forms as bad, and the primary thing holding back prosperity for all.

I remember thinking like this when i was younger (hes older than me). Then here i am working nearly half as many hours as this guy, for 5-10x the pay.

This is a widespread, pervasive train of thought in America. Yet i wonder as the houses and healthcare stay expensive, food and fuel too... at some point this mental model breaks right?

Swizecabout 16 hours ago
> Meanwhile tech workers in the US spend all day online defending billionaires

Tech pulled a great trick here: equity.

America as a whole pulled a similar trick: 401k

It’s hard to fight the billionaires when all your money depends on not fighting them.

Danoxabout 13 hours ago
401(k) and IRA’s were not a gift. It was a way for the companies to end the company pension plans in the early to mid 1980s. Half of the people who did receive them squandered them by cashing out before retirement to pay bills. If Social Security goes the same way most would squander it paying for necessities.

Most of the unionize workers still left in America get a better share of the pie than the non-Union workers not even close. It’s always good to work together in a union had to be footloose and fancy free by yourself.

Swizecabout 5 hours ago
> 401(k) and IRA’s were not a gift

No not a gift but they sure do align incentives

nielsbotabout 15 hours ago
Are you saying taxing billionaires out of existence would be bad for equity and 401ks? How, exactly?
winter_blueabout 14 hours ago
I don't think it would be bad for equity in any way. It might actually be good instead actually.

First, the general public would have more disposable income if we shift more of the tax burden on the ultra rich.

Second, people like Elon Musk won't be able to give themselves massive bonuses that are essentially paid by diluting common stock.

Also, with regard to the U.S., the U.S. could wipe out its national debt with a one-time wealth tax, and also pass a balanced budget const. amendment so it never ends up deep in debt again.

Lastly, perverse and extremely greed-based exploitative businesses might become less common, since there aren't ultra fat executive paychecks. Although it might still happen if a large group of people are able to make a somewhat high salary off such schemes.

anon291about 15 hours ago
Well yeah America has achieved what the communists sought: public ownership of the means of production . Today most of the American public owns the largest means of production in government advantaged accounts. Marx ought to be proud
Sam6lateabout 11 hours ago
But no one should argue with this, it is as sound as physics;no unions no equality in salaries https://www.epi.org/news/union-membership-declines-inequalit...
usaar333about 15 hours ago
Tech workers get paid in equity and many in the semiconductor industry are making far far more than this a year with all the equity appreciation.
arjieabout 14 hours ago
In all honesty, I’d rather get paid the $500k/yr people make here than have a union negotiate a $350k one time bonus in a time of unprecedented success. Given these two options, I’m not that eager to have their system.
Computer0about 14 hours ago
$500k/yr? Do you think a lot of people make that much?
virgildotcodesabout 14 hours ago
While we’re at it I, too, would rather be given $xx billion a month and a pony than be in a union and only get a $350k bonus.

I think I am making a shrewd decision here if my math and equine knowledge holds.

dolebirchwoodabout 14 hours ago
He clearly has a very narrow definition of "here" in mind.
TheDongabout 14 hours ago
I mean, on levels.fyi the 90th percentile in San Francisco is 500k. Most of HN is tech workers in the bay area.

The average person on hacker news is easily in the 90th percentile of software engineers, so yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if the most people here make somewhere around there.

The biggest confounding factor is the other fact that most HN users are startup founders living off ramen in Peter Thiel's garage, so that probably brings down the average some.

yongjikabout 15 hours ago
I have a hard time understanding this complaint. A US tech worker earning $340k bonus wouldn't even make news, it happens every year all around the silicon valley.

That is, a US tech worker is taking much more for their own from those billionaire employers, compared to what Samsung's workers managed to do after a lot of haggling.

nielsbotabout 15 hours ago
We’d need to see the payout distribution to know for sure…

Just the average doesn’t say enough.

anon291about 15 hours ago
I mean as someone who works in American AI chip firms , our compensation is larger. You can bitch about America as much as you want but it's pretty much the best in terms of monetary compensation

Of course I'm late to the game. My colleagues who have been here ten years are either extremely wealthy and bored or sailing the Caribbean at this point. Every other week someone is taking a sabbatical

nielsbotabout 15 hours ago
That’s nice for the handful of people in the right place at the right time, I guess…
nomelabout 15 hours ago
Yes, just like the Samsung employees we're talking about.
carabinerabout 14 hours ago
I don't think it's much larger when you adjust for Bay Area COL. Housing and healthcare especially.
VerifiedReportsabout 14 hours ago
Meanwhile, U.S. companies are cutting our already-shitty vacation and leave.
penguin_boozeabout 10 hours ago
When the government is: of the many, for the few.
agentifyshabout 13 hours ago
I do wonder if this is good for Korea in the long run. There's not many employers like Samsung and SK that can provide this level of compensation for cost centers. I think many more workers are going to start demanding red carpet treatment when companies are choosing to outright shut down or move operations out of Korea due to increasing pressure from unions. ex) Hanjin, SsangYong Motor, GM, Renault Samsung/Renault Korea, Nestle, Tetra Pak, Hyundai Motor, HomePlus....
Ekarosabout 10 hours ago
It probably is. Sharing in what is essentially a massive windfall is most likely positive. This money will get spend or invested by employees. Which should stimulate the economy at much higher level if it just stayed in stock market.

This is not standard thing. This is response in situation where company has generated massively more profit than any time previously and likely any time in future after market stabilises. Expectation that at least part is shared with employees should not be unreasonable.

choudharismabout 13 hours ago
It is an abhorrent reflection of the society that this is a valid kneejerk response.
tuesdaynightabout 4 hours ago
Workers are supposed to always be worried about the overall economy, but companies firing thousands of people can ignore everything that is not related with their revenue/profit. It's hilarious.

I remember when I had these kind of takes. I blindly believed in "equal treatment, including billionaires". Now I get frustrated reading them, but I have empathy from understanding where they come from (for now, at least).

thrownthatwayabout 13 hours ago
> chip workers

> cost centres

What?

In what way are manufacturing workers a cost centre?

They aren’t call centre workers.

dyauspitrabout 14 hours ago
This is what bonuses would average out to in the US as well. It’s just that the CEO would get $100 million and the workers maybe $10k each. Does the article say how it’s going to work?
virgildotcodesabout 14 hours ago
Maybe that’s still what’s happening, they’re talking about average after all :)
winter_blueabout 14 hours ago
Perhaps U.S. workers could threaten to strike as well...
Danoxabout 13 hours ago
The Molly Maguire‘s lost a long time ago in America, the Goons, Pinkerton’s and the owners saw to that with a little help from the government and the police of course.
vrganjabout 13 hours ago
Don't be silly, we're all special individuals here and unions are bad! We definitely haven't been brainwashed to act against our best interests.
rcbdevabout 14 hours ago
> Does the article say how it’s going to work?

You pay them the bonus, it shows on the pay cheque, like every salary bonus. What about this is something you'd expect in an article?

yellow_leadabout 13 hours ago
The distribution of bonuses instead of an average
dyauspitrabout 13 hours ago
I mean how the bonuses are going to be distributed based on hierarchy in the company
snthpyabout 13 hours ago
Exactly. I came here to say the same thing.
yogthosabout 15 hours ago
unions work
plemerabout 15 hours ago
But who will protect the interests of capital??
greesilabout 15 hours ago
Capital, politicians, conservatives, libertarians,
virgildotcodesabout 14 hours ago
We’ve gotta add American Liberals, majority of Democratic Party to the list. The Sanders faction is unfortunately not yet the prevailing force.
tdeckabout 14 hours ago
Don't forget liberals too!
yogthosabout 13 hours ago
But won't somebody think of the robber barons!
foxglacierabout 15 hours ago
I think you mean who will protect the interests of the consumer? That's ultimately who loses to unions. There's no direct ethical value in protecting businesses or their owners but workers and consumers include pretty much all humans and their interests are in tension with each other.
sanxiynabout 15 hours ago
Consumers have a choice of not buying, so generally they do not lose to unions.
8noteabout 14 hours ago
mostly the government because the consumer has a lot of democratic power.

product regulations and antitrust as examples

LastTrainabout 14 hours ago
I mean if that is your measure, then consumers lose more to capital than organized labor.
4d4mabout 17 hours ago
This is wonderful!
akabalanzaabout 13 hours ago
Big up for the unions!
jinwoo68about 13 hours ago
Do not get deceived by the average number. I'm pretty sure that most of the money of the total goes to a handful of people, and the small remaining amount will be shared by the rest. Emphasizing the average amount is just their PR strategy.
xbarabout 15 hours ago
Nice. Now, the Fortune 500, please.
Advertisement
dahuangfabout 13 hours ago
Samsung chip workers get $340k bonuses. American tech workers get laid off because AI is 'optimizing headcount.' Different kind of AI dividend
missedthecueabout 13 hours ago
These samsung workers are producing the compute that reduces demand for american coders. It's like pointing out that tractor factorymen are getting bonuses while the stable-manager gets laid off. Well of course.
IncreasePostsabout 13 hours ago
What do you think will happen to these chip workers as their jobs get automated with AI?
krupanabout 13 hours ago
That is so far away. There is approximately 0 public training data for chip design. Just try asking an LLM to design hardware, it's laughable

EDIT: just realized I'm not sure what a "chip worker" in this article is. Someone doing digital design? Someone working in the fab? Hmm

teinntabout 17 hours ago
Next post will detail a 300 percent increase in chip workers LOL
imp0catabout 14 hours ago
They would, if they could! Starting new chip fabs is not that easy.
akg_67about 16 hours ago
And, soon someone will come along claiming unions and strikes don’t work. /s
boguscoderabout 16 hours ago
Any bonus is better than no bonus but averages are deceiving. Maybe VPs would get 10m and line workers 10k ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
yladizabout 16 hours ago
My understanding of the article is that it affects actual chip workers, since it’s the union of those workers that will be affected.
snayanabout 14 hours ago
Is your understanding that the VPs are in the same union as the line workers? That would be... interesting. I do not believe that is the case.
segmondyabout 16 hours ago
right here in good ol USA, workers are getting laid off. Plenty of folks will be happy without a bonus right now if they could just have a job.
willio58about 16 hours ago
Yeah give me the median
vardalababout 16 hours ago
Not all workers will fare equally. As an illustration, Reuters cited a union source estimating that someone in the memory chip unit earning an 80-million-won base salary could take home roughly 626 million won in total bonuses this year. By comparison, workers at SK Hynix stand to collect upward of 700 million won should their employer post annual profit of 250 trillion won, Reuters calculated. Unlike at Samsung, SK Hynix employees are not limited to stock payouts and may instead opt for cash, Reuters reported.

Almost 6x the base, not bad.

Danoxabout 12 hours ago
They probably had to fight hard to get it and stick together…
brcmthrowawayabout 14 hours ago
So does Samsung have a union?

How about TSMC or ASML?

dlenskiabout 14 hours ago
> So does Samsung have a union?

Are you being sarcastic?

It's literally mentioned in the first sentence of the article, as well as the subheading.

cosmobiosisabout 14 hours ago
I'm never a big fan of Samsung haha. I'm more like a fan of Google as hardware