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#shingles#vaccine#more#chickenpox#dementia#got#doctor#health#virus#years

Discussion (81 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

robot_jesus•about 3 hours ago
I'm in my 40s with genetic predisposition for Alzheimer's. Been seriously considering the past year or two paying out of pocket for Shingrix. I think it would be ~$500 total for two doses.

Sure, I could wait 7 or 8 years until I qualify via insurance, but is that really worth the risk for what is an easily absorbed cost to me? Especially when I have a friend in her late 30s who just went through a very rough bout of shingles?

It makes sense to have targets like age 50 for population-wide public health recommendations. But it can and does infect people of much earlier ages.

Recent articles like this make me think I'll go ahead.

andy99•about 2 hours ago
I read before that iirc because of waning protection it’s better not to get it too early. It’s not clear to me why you can’t get it twice, but what I read (and it was some online discussion so could be wrong) was that someone had been specifically told by their doctor to wait to 50 as the best spot to get it. I’d like to know more, I’m in my 40s and would be happy to get it now too but not if it was going to be worse overall for some reason.
anonym29•about 2 hours ago
The antibodies you develop to fight the virus fade over time. I just had it fairly recently (young 30s, vaccinated with the attenuated chickenpox virus, never had chickenpox, so this was likely the vaccine strainÂą). Did a lot of reading and research during and after. The antibodies seem to offer good protection for 5-10 years following either vaccination or infection according to the literature I was reading.

Âą The vaccine strain tends to be much more mild than the wild strain, and indeed it was quite unpleasant, but not extremely painful for me. The wild strain is considerably more painful and linked to a greater incidence rate of complications. Please do not skip chickenpox vaccinations for your kids, the minor risk of latent infection from attenuated vaccine is far less harmful than the consequences of not vaccinating. Most important of all, if you have a cluster of blisters or rash on one side of your body that keep popping up, make sure to see a doctor and get on antivirals within the first 72 hours for best results.

jimbob45•9 minutes ago
You had Shingles after never having chicken pox except the vaccine?
tptacek•about 2 hours ago
Wait, you can just pay for the shingles vaccine, before you're 50? Where do I do that?

I had shingles in my 30s. It was the sickest I've ever been.

kaikai•10 minutes ago
You can just ask for vaccines at the pharmacy. I got a potentially missed childhood vaccination as an adult and they asked a few questions about why I wanted it, but were happy to give it to me. If it’s something odd you might need to go to a travel clinic.
tptacek•6 minutes ago
Not this one you can't.
bink•15 minutes ago
Not exactly. My doctor wanted to start me on a medicine that would make me more likely to develop shingles so he asked me to get the vaccine series before he'd prescribe the medicine. I guess there's no such thing as a prescription for a vaccine, so I just went to my local pharmacy. I made the mistake of writing on the form that I had no health issues. The pharmacist came out and said because I wasn't 50 and had no health issues they weren't allowed to administer the vaccine. Even after I explained my condition and the doctor's request they still refused. They wouldn't even let me fill out a new form. I had to go to a different pharmacy which conveniently didn't ask about my current health status.

It's stupid too, because the question I answered "wrong" wasn't clear. It basically sounded like they were asking me if I currently had a cold or covid.

Jolter•about 1 hour ago
If you have already had shingles as an adult, aren’t you fairly well protected for the next ten years or so, at least? I’d wager that you are one of the people least at risk since your immune system is already primed and readying suppress the virus that’s latently infecting you.
tptacek•about 1 hour ago
You are more likely to have a recurrence of shingles after once having it before. At any rate, I had mine more than 10 years ago.
Aurornis•about 2 hours ago
You can get basically any medication or vaccination you want in the US as long as you can find a doctor to write the prescription.

We even have anabolic steroids that were approved for muscle wasting in cancer patients, but if you can find a doctor willing to write the prescription and a pharmacy that won’t question it, anyone can have pharmacy grade Anavar for the gym, completely legal. In theory the doctor writing the prescription is putting their license at risk, but enforcement is so lax that there are “anti-aging” clinics all over that will prescribe testosterone and Anavar to anyone with a credit card.

So with a documented history of shingles you should have no problem getting a prescription written. It would be worth a quick check with your insurance company because it might even be covered if your doctor will fill out the form and attach evidence of the past diagnosis.

SoftTalker•about 1 hour ago
If you just want to pay out of pocket or with an HSA, etc. you can get many vaccines at a pharmacy. Might need to check if there are limited hours for that service or appointments needed. Not sure if Shingrix is one of them.
tptacek•about 1 hour ago
I've tried to get the shingles vaccine at Walgreens before and been turned down because I wasn't old enough.
mlyle•about 2 hours ago
I got shingles at 45 and it was -not fun-. My arm is slightly disfigured.

I think the age 50 target is dated. With reduced childhood incidence of chicken pox, we're all exposed to varicella zoster less, and it seems like the ages of incidence of shingles is falling. Public health recommendations are slow to catch up with research (especially for vaccinations, these days).

iambenm•about 1 hour ago
I got it around 36, and coincidentally a friend 5-6 years younger than me in a different part of the country got it at the same time.

My research at the time led me to the same conclusion: Since we've basically eradicated chickenpox, we're not exposed to the varicella zoster virus as much as previous generations (via children that have chickenpox). Without exposure our antibodies / resistance fade out.

Since we had chickenpox, the virus is already in us and dormant. When it wakes up and decides to do its thing, our bodies have forgotten how to fight it effectively compared to previous generations - and as a result, the incidence of shingles is increasing in younger populations compared to previous generations.

My doctor said vaccination for under 50 is only indicated after multiple occurrences of shingles... so here's to hoping I'm good til the guidelines change.

zahlman•about 1 hour ago
> Japan was among the first countries to vaccinate for chickenpox. The vaccine developed by Hilleman was first licensed in the United States in 1995.[17][60]

People (well, Americans and Canadians at least) in their 40s now generally didn't get vaccinated as children, as their parents didn't have the option. It will be different for the next generation.

pkaye•1 minute ago
Interestingly UK took a different approach and only started offering chicken pox vaccines for children this year.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/free-chickenpox-vaccinati...

jyounker•about 2 hours ago
Yeah, I came here to say the same thing. I got it around 46. The horrible looking stuff on the outside is also on the inside, and it weakens your internal tissues. I know this because I tore one of the muscles in my lower back, and it still causes problems.
copperx•about 2 hours ago
Shingles terrifies me because it can cause hearing loss. I spoke to my GP and he wouldn't give me a script for it even though I'm 3 years away from qualifying. He mentioned side effects.
jyounker•about 2 hours ago
That seems like being penny wise and pound foolish.
cyanydeez•about 3 hours ago
aside from age ranges being the tested population, your just gambling no other interference pattern is involved.
ChrisMarshallNY•10 minutes ago
I had the vaccine, last year (but I’m 64).

Hoowee, it made me sick, but only for a day (twice, as you get a booster, six months later).

Had chickenpox (and measles, at the same time), when I was a kid. That was fun.

My mother used to get recurring bouts of the shingles. Definitely not fun.

what_hn•38 minutes ago
Is it also possible they're finding healthier people that are proactive in their treatment, maybe even exercise more, work longer, etc...
modeless•4 minutes ago
Good guess. The actual mechanism is that people who don't get the vaccination are more likely to need to visit the hospital to treat their shingles, and because they visit the hospital more they have more chances to get a diagnosis of dementia in a hospital. See this presentation: https://youtu.be/qlTnnQytOJ0

The lesson is to be extremely suspicious of findings of causation based on observational studies.

WarOnPrivacy•14 minutes ago
PSA: For us uninsured, the shingles vaccine costs ~$500 out of pocket (>$250 x2).

I want folks to get it but - I feel "Just Get It" admonitions foster a vibe that the cost is negligible.

hereme888•about 2 hours ago
Replicated association, which is strong, but not proof. Initial study saw a 3.5% absolute reduction in dementia diagnoses over seven years with a very wide confidence interval. In Australia the study was replicated with 1.8% absolute reduction over 7.4 yrs. Canadian replication: 2% over 5.5 yrs.

Infections generally increase the risk of future dementia. Like the more colds you have throughout life.

gruez•about 2 hours ago
>Replicated association [...]

"association" undersells it a bit, because the data is better than the typical cohort study, which has issues like "what if people who got the vaccine are also richer and care about their health more?". There's quasi-randomization going on. From the more in depth article that's linked:

>Research is also revealing unexpected interventions that help to keep ageing minds sharp. One of the most promising derives from an analysis by Pascal Geldsetzer of Stanford University and his team of a natural experiment in Wales. In 2013 the British region started offering people aged 70-79 free vaccinations through the public-health system. This change resembled an RCT, in that a large number of people were separated almost at random into two groups: those who had already turned 80 in the weeks before the programme started, and so were not eligible to be jabbed; and those who turned 80 in the weeks after, roughly half of whom were duly vaccinated.

alfiedotwtf•about 2 hours ago
> like the more colds you have in life

Whoa wait what? This is the first time I’ve heard of this - is this actually common knowledge?

hereme888•about 1 hour ago
Not common knowledge, but should be in this day and age. For example, someone who worked in daycare and often got sick with the flu or similar, has a higher risk of dementia (statistically-speaking).

When I learned it, it was in the context of the influenza and similar common viruses.

It's actually more nuanced than that. If you want to read more: https://www.openevidence.com/ask/bccc3cc2-e15d-4fb0-a0c5-16f...

sarchertech•19 minutes ago
As far as I know you're vastly overstating what is known.

There was a study that showed that people who had severe influenza (they were hospitalized) were 3 times more likely to develop dementia. And there are mouse models that show that frequency respiratory virus infections can increase may contribute to brain aging (in mice).

>someone who worked in daycare and often got sick with the flu or similar, has a higher risk of dementia (statistically-speaking).

I can't find any evidence of this being true. I can find evidence that primary school teachers have lower rates of dementia. Pediatricians also have lower rates of dementia, so I find this highly doubtful.

antaviana•about 2 hours ago
So if you had shingles in your youth then you are better protected against dementia?
tptacek•about 2 hours ago
No, the opposite. If you've had shingles before, you're more likely to get it again later, not less.
dymk•about 2 hours ago
The article says that one possible reason the vaccine protects against dementia is incidental protection from other diseases. Getting chickenpox as a kid might protect you against shingles, but maybe not against those other diseases.
tptacek•about 2 hours ago
No! The opposite thing is true. Getting chickenpox as a kid drastically increases your likelihood of getting shingles as an adult. The initial chickenpox infection is the mechanism by which you're set up for shingles: you get it, fight it back, and it remains dormant in your nerves. Shingles is not simply chickenpox; it's the secondary infection you get from a resurgent zoster outbreak based in your nerves.

Don't get chickenpox.

therein•about 2 hours ago
Not really, shingles is a lifetime infection. You'd be more likely.
cubefox•10 minutes ago
> Most of the evidence of its anti-dementia effect relates to an earlier version of the vaccine, which used a weakened form of the live virus. It has since been largely replaced by a new one, Shingrix, which contains just a sprinkling of proteins from the virus and is seen as safer because it cannot cause an infection.

Unfortunately the apparent ant-dementia effect of this old vaccine (Zostavax) recently turned out to be a statistical illusion: https://youtube.com/watch?v=qlTnnQytOJ0

It is not clear whether the effect from Shingrix (the new one) is real or not. We currently don't have a case-control study which could prove causation.

khriss•about 2 hours ago
Recently, even the TDAP (Tetanus) vaccine was correlated with lower incidence of dementia https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26919881

I recall seeing a few discussions on HN comments hypothesizing that immune system stimulation via the vaccine might be the root cause. Now that the Amyloid hypothesis is on the wane, hopefully we'll explore other paths.

zahlman•about 2 hours ago
> the Amyloid hypothesis is on the wane

Oh? What did I miss?

syntaxing•about 2 hours ago
I know quite a few people who got shingles in their early 20s. One of their doctors didn’t believe she had shingles until the blisters formed. The vaccine can definitely help those younger than 50, dementia benefits or not. Some of them have permanent nerve damage after getting shingles.
robot_jesus•about 3 hours ago
sowbug•about 3 hours ago
Shingles vaccine, if you don't feel like clicking through.
blooalien•about 3 hours ago
Thank you.
satya71•about 3 hours ago
TL;DR Shingles vaccines reduces chances of dementia by 20%. Yet, most countries health systems only look at the upfront cost of ~$300 and don’t recommend for all who could benefit.
MASNeo•about 2 hours ago
In a separate article the other factors are quoted with similar impact (listed in order of max potential magnitude) - anti depression treatment - education increases - hearing improvement - obesity reduction - low alcohol

The earlier you start the better.

rsyring•about 2 hours ago
Can you share the article you reference?
WalterGR•about 2 hours ago
> hearing improvement

This means addressing hearing loss, e.g. via hearing aids.

gruez•about 2 hours ago
>anti depression treatment - regular exercise - obesity reduction - education - less/no alcohol

Injecting people with a shingles vaccine is far easier than the others you listed, which is why it stands out.

tptacek•about 2 hours ago
That may be the case in other countries, but in the US we're generally fee-for-service, so the incentives are reversed, and we still don't give it until you're 50 (which, as someone who has had it and is under 50, annoys me to no end).
hatsunearu•about 2 hours ago
Should I get the shingles vaccine at a young age? I've had chickenpox earlier in my life.
jyounker•about 2 hours ago
As someone who got shingles at about 46, yes.
SoftTalker•about 2 hours ago
20% of what?
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