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#power#electricity#demand#costs#build#those#price#getting#more#part

Discussion (17 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

gruez•10 minutes ago
Isn't almost all of the datacenter build out for inference, rather than training? If so, what's the issue? If the electricity demand is coming from actual use, then why are people getting mad at datacenters or AI companies, rather than the actual people driving the demand? It's like getting mad at Amazon for how much they increased fuel prices, which they surely did, given all the fuel that their trucks/planes burn. Or getting mad at some global food conglomerate for making açaí berries[1] more expensive, but there's a global craze for them and the conglomerate is just catering to that demand.

[1] or whatever other "superfood" that explodes in popularity

m-hodges•about 1 hour ago
> But what if the power company needs to upgrade the substation to handle the increased needs of the data center? Or secure additional sources of electricity? In these cases, the investments are part of the electricity grid that everyone uses. These costs will likely be shared among all customers.

Okay but this is a policy choice. It doesn’t have to be that way.

SoftTalker•34 minutes ago
Where I live, if a developer wants to build a subdivision, they pay for the water and sewer lines. They pay to connect those lines to the city infrastructure. If the city infrastructure needs to be upgraded to handle the new volumes, they pay for at least a proportionate share of that too. The ongoing maintenance becomes part of the city's budget eventually, but not the costs of the build out.

All those costs go into the price of the houses built there.

And this is also part of why building "affordable" houses rarely happens. All the infrastructure costs the same whether the houses cost $100K or $1 million.

ip26•11 minutes ago
The “affordable” housing thing seems like such a misdirection. I can’t help but daydream that some moneyed interest somewhere fans those flames, as it looks like a dead end that can absorb endless fervor.

You know what you do if you want an affordable car? You buy used. I think most people understand Ford is never going to build another a car that costs $10k brand new, and the last new car near that price barely sold because it was so stripped.

silisili•28 minutes ago
That's smart. Do they do it with roads also? That's a big one near me - developers buying hundred acre farms on unpainted 2 lane country roads and jamming in 2000 houses. Then inevitably the road becomes unusable until the city or county gets around to addressing it.

Always wondered why the county didn't require the road work, or money for it, up front.

mulmen•25 minutes ago
In my hometown in Idaho in the 1990s and 2000s yes, this includes access roads and improvements to the surrounding area. A car dealership and Wal Mart both paid for road improvements and traffic lights as part of development.
pooploop64•21 minutes ago
Still waiting for canadian cell phone bills to come down after all those "upgrades" that supposedly happened.
russellthehippo•41 minutes ago
Precisely this. Incredibly annoying headline
strictnein•23 minutes ago
It doesn't even match what's in the article.

> "concluded that expected power demand from data centers was _a_ primary reason for $23 billion in customer price increases "

Also, it's weird that he describes PJM as "the organization that monitors the PJM market" when they describe themselves as "a regional transmission organization (RTO) that coordinates the movement of wholesale electricity" [0]. So are they monitors of the market or are they the market themselves?

I don't know... maybe I'm being picky, but the article just seems off. The whole bit about how data centers could maybe game the system by using less power during peak times also doesn't make sense - that's when they also have the highest demand. Pointing to cryptominers just makes me think he doesn't get what they do, which is basically arbitrage. Of course they stop when power costs go up, it eats up all of their profits and they can simply start back up when the costs go down.

[0] https://www.pjm.com/about-pjm

echelon•44 minutes ago
Build more power!
FireBeyond•about 1 hour ago
Exactly. Over in Virginia 37 datacenters use close to 3GW of electricity. The power utilities and overarching transmitters are looking at projects to ship some of that electricity (which requires ~700kV transmission). Two projects in the works are at $18B between them.

$18B to provide redundancy and not have to require schools and local government to limit electricity use and provide a bit more slack in the powergrid is a burden that all the users get to share. Lucky them. Yes, all users benefit, but lucky break for those datacenters, getting all that redundancy for power, without a $500M/ea bill.

jauntywundrkind•20 minutes ago
That's great to hear that we have at least somewhat decent voltages. I thought America was still sort of piddling around with mostly 500kV and under power distribution.

It's not a huge power multiplier (P = VI, so linear), but in principle I do love the idea that if you are going to have these massive transmissions lines we ought use the conductor well, at good high voltages.

China has been doing 1MV and 1.1MV lines for a while now, which is so excellent to see. https://www.bbc.co.uk/future/article/20241113-will-chinas-ul... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-voltage_electricity...

ddp26•about 1 hour ago
Isn't this the same as saying "utility regulators delaying connecting new power to the grid hiked electricity prices on the public by $23B?"

When my apples are expensive, I don't generally grumble about all the demand from pie makers. If they demand more apples, new suppliers should come in to restore the price, right?

russellthehippo•41 minutes ago
Failures to allow faster generation/hookup rollout have suppressed supply increase relative to demand increase
bdangubic•about 1 hour ago
according to my wife we paid about 1/2 of that :)
erelong•about 1 hour ago
"small price to pay for Massive AI Gains"
BLKNSLVR•about 1 hour ago
FYI to others: the above is not a quote from the article.