Apple targets dozens of OpenAI employees with legal letters

109

mmerksittich about 2 hours ago 63 commentsRead Article on ft.com

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deepwoods•about 2 hours ago

FT frames this as some aggressive escalation tactic, but document retention letters are extremely standard practice. At this point they're basically a formality, as any former Apple employee at OpenAI really ought to know by now that they could get dragged into this. Hold letters can be aggressive if you send them before you've even filed a complaint, but if anything, Apple is late to the party with these.

reenorap•about 2 hours ago

Apple must have hard evidence on this. I can’t believe they would take it this far without already knowing they are going to win. If they have to fire a huge chunk of their hardware employees it’s going to throw their IPO plans into chaos.

martinky24•11 minutes ago

They literally do have hard evidence. They have records of an employee (Chang Liu) who left for OpenAI copying dozens and dozens of files off of their server after he left.

jstummbillig•about 1 hour ago

What do you mean "this far"? How far is this?

Corps lose law suits all the time. They always have to go whatever "this far" is before it happens, surely?

s3p•15 minutes ago

>How far is this?

If I am understanding your question, they went so far as to sue their employees.

cj•32 minutes ago

Filing lawsuits against ex-employees is going pretty far. Not good PR for Apple if their claims are wrong.

Companies often file frivolous lawsuits against other companies. It’s much rarer to throw frivolous lawsuits at individuals.

doctaj•29 minutes ago

Just to be clear, these are letters to individuals about the existing lawsuit with OpenAI, not new lawsuits against individuals.

Forgeties79•26 minutes ago

The accusations are incredibly clear/defined (and serious!) and have a very simple burden of proof. These things either happened or they didn’t, and they have material evidence or they don’t. It’s incredibly unlikely that they filed such big, concrete accusations without concrete proof to back them up.

And while I am far from an Apple fan boy, yes a lot of big corporations file frivolous lawsuits but Apple typically does not engage in that behavior against other companies. Also bear in mind that open AI is a huge name so there is a public/political element that goes along with this for Apple. There are going to be a lot of people who do not want Apple to win this regardless of how true their claims are and will figut like hell to protect openAI

marginalx•22 minutes ago

They also have a new CEO at the helm.

teeray•about 1 hour ago

Makes you wonder if they’ll settle for bargain-basement token prices for Apple Intelligence.

dofm•about 1 hour ago

I think it is clear that if Apple were going to deal with OpenAI on that level, they already would have. What they wanted for their AI products is a measure of control over their destiny that OpenAI clearly did not want to give them that badly. It's also pretty clear that Apple is willing to work with arch-rivals to supply components of their products, both software and hardware, but values consistency alongside trustworthiness.

moduspol•about 1 hour ago

This stuff happened years ago, right? Something tells me that discussion has already happened, and they went with Google.

Besides: Apple is a "real" company that will definitely still be around in five years. They've already fumbled Siri multiple times. IMO Google was certainly the right choice for actually executing well on Apple's own terms for the foreseeable future.

testfrequency•about 1 hour ago

You’re underestimating how much Apple Legal goes after anyone and everyone they feel a slight wrong sniff about.

I know some insane stories that will never be publicly disclosed for one reason or another, and…it’s not a legal team I’d ever want to cross paths with.

It’s also not the first time Apple has cried wolf at employees leaving the company to do bigger and better things, while trying to take responsibility for their successes.

jubilanti•8 minutes ago

Oh, in that case, I just happen to have some insane stories that will never be publicly disclosed, and every one of my stories rebuts every one of your stories.

Forgeties79•14 minutes ago

Then share some of those insane stories with sources I guess. Because this seems to directly contradict my understanding of Apple (post-Jobs in particular).

I do not love Apple, as I said another comment I am so far from an apple fanboy, but frivolous lawsuits against other companies is not really typical for them. Also, these accusations are far from frivolous and they either have proof or they don’t. It would be very strange for them to file this thinking they would win with some sort of gray area argument

testfrequency•4 minutes ago

I worked at Apple for a few decades. My comment was not meant to be cryptic as much as it was to say: their legal team is very very hands on.

As you could imagine, I’m not sharing any specific information.

seviu•about 1 hour ago

This is John Ternus having a beef with Tang Tan. It’s widely known they both competed for the role of CEO. Tim Cook would never have started this.

It shows a level of pettiness and arrogance which I never expected to see from Apple.

I can’t put myself in the mind of John, but he clearly hated Tang.

From outside and with a parent’s perspective this looks like my kids throwing a tantrum.

John must be thinking he is the new Steve Jobs (Steve would definitely do this)

jonlucc•about 1 hour ago

It's interesting that you say they must have hated each other, but assume only Ternus is acting on that. What makes you think Tan's hatred of Ternus or animosity toward Apple for picking Ternus over him didn't lead Tan to do the alleged behavior?

gota•33 minutes ago

Maybe a naive take, but if there's one team in a large corporation that does not bend to "the CEO(-to-be) wants it", that is the Legal team. Particularly when the ask is a lawsuit of this scope and relevance, and potential costs (of all kinds). The head of Legal can just hint to the board how expensive (in all senses) the vendetta would be and the CEO is likely "not to be" anymore, or "to be temporary".

appplication•27 minutes ago

This comment is really strange and reads like disinformation

MattDamonSpace•about 1 hour ago

Agreed Steve would do this

But the iPhone is the most valuable consumer hardware product on the planet, and the accusations here is “conspiracy to steal” essentially.

Is it really that petty? Apple should be okay with theft of valuable secrets?

wat10000•28 minutes ago

Apple comes down hard on employees who merely leak to the press. Taking internal documents to a competitor is not going to be fun.

zarzavat•29 minutes ago

It's insane to cross Apple. In the worst case Apple could take the ChatGPT app down like they did to Fortnite. They are probably waiting for discovery to find out how high this goes.

amelius•26 minutes ago

Well, the EU won't allow it.

jimbokun•24 minutes ago

Maybe.

Depends if they hate Apple or OpenAI more.

scrlk•about 2 hours ago

https://archive.ph/3J3iw

bix6•about 2 hours ago

Predictions on who wins? Does Apple actually have a winnable case or are they just throwing a wrench in things?

jasode•about 1 hour ago

>Does Apple actually have a winnable case

Based on the previous thread, Apple seems to have damning evidence of wrongdoing by the (ex)employees before-and-after they left their positions at Apple: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48865019

Seems very similar to Google/Waymo winning its case against Uber (ex-Googler Anthony Levandowski) stealing corporate data.

Apple has the employees' emails history, the server access logs, etc. Really don't see Apple pursuing this unless they had a mountain of evidence against them.

ksec•about 1 hour ago

Generally speaking, I think Apple tends to win on anything related to ex-employees. I am not sure if this is normal across Big-Tech. But surely is for Apple.

Depending on what is at stake. Example the one with Nuvia and Qualcomm I believe they just settled.

rancar2•about 1 hour ago

Oh the irony if Apple can get a larger OpenAI stake than Microsoft.

moralestapia•about 2 hours ago

Apple is not the company that makes this sort of thing just for fun.

Also, they don't have a directly competing business with OpenAI, so slander doesn't make sense.

I think this is genuine.

MichaelZuo•about 1 hour ago

It would be very strange for Apple’s legal department to send out formal letters filled with claims on a lark.

nba456_•about 1 hour ago

Not really, just slowing down a potential competitor could still be worth it.

gsibble•30 minutes ago

That's never been Apple's playbook with lawsuits at least.

nojito•about 1 hour ago

Both parties will just settle.

Apple already caught former employees accessing the Apple internal network with unreturned laptops after termination that’s pretty much game over.

smith7018•about 1 hour ago

Why would Apple settle? They probably want the same outcomes of the Waymo v Uber trial that forced Uber out of the market. Apple's accusations imply that every part of OpenAI's hardware effort has been tainted with Apple's trade secrets and is therefore illegitimate. They also have more money than God so they can keep the suit going as long as they want.

staticman2•about 1 hour ago

Uber was not forced to leave the self driving car market by Waymo's litigation. The litigation ended in February 2018 and Uber left the market in December 2020.

hmmm3•about 2 hours ago

https://archive.ph/zoUde

JKCalhoun•about 2 hours ago

How can I say this…? Some companies come across like a neon sign flashing "EVIL!".

It's been nothing but warning signs from this company for at least a year now. I'm so happy to have nothing to do with them (having deleted my account a year or so ago).

Their marketing dept is going to have to really dig to get them out of this hole they've made for themselves.

The idea that I would trust any device they might roll out that is as personal as a personal AI assistant… It's no better than Meta and their creepy glasses.

Yeah, no thanks.

EDIT: I don't mind the downvotes—it means I touched a nerve—whether I am on the right or wrong side of the issue is not as interesting.

Apple, for its flaws, has not lost my trust with regard to my personal data—Meta and others are likely to never gain that back. OpenAI continues to do things to signal that they will not have that trust with me as well.

khalic•about 2 hours ago

… so… you’re talking about OpenAI or Apple?

JKCalhoun•about 2 hours ago

Ha ha. Worked at Apple for over two decades—would not have stayed at a company I thought was evil for that long.

A bully at times? I wouldn't argue with that.

ewild•34 minutes ago

What about the kids they intentionally get driven to suicide by keeping the blue bubbles for no other reason than child indoctrination due to bullying from other kids.

yomismoaqui•about 2 hours ago

A quick search:

APP STORE, COMPETITION, AND MARKET CONTROL

  - U.S. Department of Justice antitrust lawsuit Accuses Apple of monopolizing
    smartphone markets and anticompetitive behavior.
    https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-sues-apple-monopolizing-smartphone-markets

  - EU Commission DMA breach The European Commission found Apple in breach of
    the Digital Markets Act regarding steering rules.
    https://digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/news/commission-finds-apple-and-meta-breach-digital-markets-act

  - Epic Games injunction sanctions Court rules Apple defied App Store order
    regarding external payment links.
    https://apnews.com/article/69b16572d2b2c990f6b69d4bbad9b57b

  - EU €1.8B App Store fine Fined for abusive music-streaming rules and
    preventing cheaper alternative information.
    https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_24_1161

IPHONE PERFORMANCE AND "BATTERYGATE"

  - Apple Will Finally Pay for Throttling iPhones (WIRED) Apple settled the
    throttling lawsuit for up to $500 million (without admitting guilt).
    https://www.wired.com/story/apple-batterygate-settlement-payments-finally-coming/

RIGHT TO REPAIR AND PARTS PAIRING

  - The End of Parts Pairing? Almost (iFixit) On how software component linking
    forces warnings and loses functionality.
    https://www.ifixit.com/News/100266/the-end-of-parts-pairing-almost

  - Self-Repair Programme Critique (Right to Repair Europe) Critiques
    serialization, remote authorization, and part restrictions.
    https://repair.eu/news/apples-self-repair-programme-is-not-the-right-to-repair-we-need/

  - France is Fighting to Save Your iPhone from an Early Death (WIRED) Regarding
    France's probe into planned obsolescence and parts pairing.
    https://www.wired.com/story/right-to-repair-apple-france/

PRIVACY AND SURVEILLANCE

  - Apple to pay $95 million to settle Siri privacy lawsuit (Reuters) Lawsuit
    alleging accidental Siri recordings and sharing with third parties.
    https://www.reuters.com/legal/apple-pay-95-million-settle-siri-privacy-lawsuit-2025-01-02/

  - Apple's CSAM On-Device Scanning Critiques (EFF) The Electronic Frontier
    Foundation's critique of Apple's plan to scan photos on-device (later
    dropped).
    https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/08/apples-plan-think-different-about-encryption-opens-backdoor-your-private-life

LABOR CONDITIONS IN SUPPLY CHAINS

  - Apple Reveals Supply Chain, Details Conditions (Reuters) Early reporting on
    audit findings of child labor and work violations.
    https://www.reuters.com/article/world/uk/apple-reveals-supply-chain-details-conditions-idUSTRE80C1KV/

  - Rights Group Says Apple Suppliers in China Broke Labor Laws (Reuters)
    Reports of excessive overtime and labor violations in Chinese factories.
    https://www.reuters.com/article/business/rights-group-says-apple-suppliers-in-china-breaking-labour-laws-idUSBRE85R0EF/

TAX PRACTICES

  - State aid: Ireland gave illegal tax benefits to Apple worth up to €13
    billion (European Commission) The EC ruling that Ireland gave illegal tax
    benefits to Apple, later upheld.
    https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_16_2923

plufz•about 2 hours ago

From what we know this far it’s quite easy to be on Apples side in this particular question, right?

khalic•about 1 hour ago

Yes it was more of a jest than a critique, the comment didn't explicitly say which one it was. In this case, it seems quite clear that Apple has a case.

JKCalhoun•about 2 hours ago

Especially since Apple has no history of doing this—suggests this is on another level of theft.

(I worked at Apple and am aware of little "theft" incidents that came and went. Obviously those little incidents never made the news cycle.)

groundzeros2015•about 1 hour ago

> Some companies come across like a neon sign flashing "EVIL!".

This is a perception created by your choice of media.

JKCalhoun•about 1 hour ago

Probably.

(HackerNews, FWIW.)

gsibble•29 minutes ago

Agreed. Very wary of OpenAI these days.

speak_plainly•about 1 hour ago

I wonder what Jony Ive is thinking about his partnership at the moment.

DivingForGold•about 2 hours ago

Nag screen, as usual

josefritzishere•about 2 hours ago

Wait until it comes out that OpenAI stole trade data through their deal with Atlassian. Seems inevitable. The company is fundamentally criminal in nature.

pembrook•about 2 hours ago

I’m a huge fan of Apple but this kind of thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Regardless of whether OpenAI poached some of their talent or is the one in the wrong, Apple has such a massively dominant hardware business (some might say monopoly level in some areas) that for them to be publicly acknowledging how scared they are of OpenAI…it’s just…pathetic.

They’re a $5T company and can’t muster up the motivation to get in the game and compete in the next computing frontier.

Apple fanboys will invent some narrative about them swooping in with the best product as a laggard and claim it’s always their strategy, but I see zero evidence they have the capacity to do that anymore.

The Siri situation is just absolutely pathetic and no amount of bad press about OpenAI is going to change the fact that Apple neglecting Siri for a decade now has been a big F-U to their customers.

NBJack•about 1 hour ago

You may want to read the related articles first. I'm personally quite anti-Apple on several fronts, but the evidence so far seems damning if it holds up in court.

lowmagnet•about 1 hour ago

In what case is apple a monopoly?

trollbridge•34 minutes ago

Some people think that being the exclusive supplier of iOS based devices is a “monopoly”.

presbyterian•about 1 hour ago

This isn't just them being scared of a competitor because they're able to outperform Apple, according to Apple they have proof of an active plan not just to poach talent, but to get that talent to syphon out information as they leave, as well as former employees keeping Apple hardware and using it to access confidential information. If what Apple claims is true, this is straightforwardly illegal. Could Apple be lying? Maybe, but that's a very risky move.

pembrook•about 1 hour ago

It totally could be illegal, and I don’t care. Those laws exist to entrench dominant incumbents, and make our economy less dynamic.

The history of Silicon Valley and most of its innovation come from this kind of thing, and we eliminated non-competes in California for exactly this reason.

Apple having a serious competitor in hardware would be a good thing for consumers all over the world.

Apple’s overzealous secrecy culture starts to become insidious once you become such a dominant force in the marketplace.

At what point do we allow their innovations to bleed into the rest of humanity and lower their margins so humanity doesn’t pay out a 60% tax to them anymore. I think they’ve made enough profits for investors at this point. Id be happy if my Apple stock went nowhere if it meant 20 other companies could grow and innovate new products off the back of it.

jamespo•about 1 hour ago

So we should "make our economy more dynamic" by encouraging IP theft which will simultaneously discourage genuine research & development?

hunmernop•about 2 hours ago

OpenAI ain’t too open

ameen•about 1 hour ago

Why do I get the sense that OpenAI is gonna run to the administration to broker a deal to prevent “losing competitiveness” in the AI space in the advent of Chinese alternatives like Kimi AI. All they’ll exchange is some stake in OpenAI to TruthSocial or some investment vehicle for 45/47.

hirako2000•37 minutes ago

A non profit turned into a VC business, that would be natural to get subsidies from the public and immunity in the interest of national security.

symfoniq•33 minutes ago

OpenAI only exists due to the theft of content created by others.

If Apple’s accusations prove to be true, it just means that OpenAI is consistent.