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Discussion (137 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

Doveabout 12 hours ago
When I was in grad school, I had the opportunity to take a course from my adviser in which he discussed his current research and some open questions. It was a relatively accessible subject area and the questions were sometimes easy enough that we could meaningfully contribute.

On one particular Friday afternoon, he stated a conjecture that he hoped was true, and invited us to try to help him prove or disprove it. It was the sort of thing that he really wanted to be true; he liked things smooth and beautiful. I, on the other hand, hoped it was false as I like the weird and exceptional in mathematics. It was also the case that I had absolutely no command of the sort of machinery that one would use to prove such a thing, but I could certainly look for a counterexample.

I learned on Monday that he had spent the entire weekend trying and failing to prove it. I, on the other hand, had put all my energy into finding a counterexample and had one within an hour.

My single (quite small) contribution to mathematical research was a counterexample because it was all I could do. The story does illustrate that it can be helpful to have people with different tools, hopes, and motivations working on a problem, though. I was not, and will never be, even a shadow of that great mathematiciam I studied under, but on that occasion, I had reason to look in a different direction than he did.

bananaflagabout 11 hours ago
> It was also the case that I had absolutely no command of the sort of machinery that one would use to prove such a thing, but I could certainly look for a counterexample.

Hm, as a mathematician, my experience feels opposite. A proof would be an adaptation of a proof I know, some tweaking it here and there. A counterexample would require some deep understanding of the structure of the objects involved, which frequently is beyond my comprehension.

But probably this is because I think of quite abstract objects which are harder to grasp. For numbers or polynomials, this would be the other way round.

codemogabout 10 hours ago
There’s a story in How to Solve It that’s basically the same.
parl_matchabout 10 hours ago
> I learned on Monday that he had spent the entire weekend trying and failing to prove it. I, on the other hand, had put all my energy into finding a counterexample and had one within an hour.

He spent an entire weekend before having the wisdom to pause, and let someone else contribute their time to finding a counter.

hintymadabout 12 hours ago
> The Jacobian Conjecture

Interestingly, Yitang Zhang of the twin-prime-conjecture fame spent 7 years working on the Jacobian conjecture under the advisor Tzuong-Tsieng Moh at Purdue. A key step in his thesis used a corollary of Moh's. It turned out that the corollary was incorrect. As a result, Moh refused to write any recommendation letter for Zhang, and Zhang couldn't find any teaching or research job and ended up spending years working at a Subway[1].

Imagine Zhag had ChatGPT in 1986 when he started working on the Jacobian Conjecture.

[1] Of course now this has become an inspiring story. That said, the story definitely invokes complex emotions. The best way to describe it is probably this Chinese poem, which I have no idea how to translate: 庾信平生最萧瑟,暮年诗赋动江关

tchallaabout 11 hours ago
I was once in a presentation for a math PhD thesis. During the thesis, the evaluator of the thesis noticed a flaw in their proof. The student understood and then asked “What now?” The evaluator prof simply shrugged.
simonreiffabout 11 hours ago
That sounds like the worst "exam nightmare" scenario imaginable, but did the student get the PhD in the end?
abdullahkhalidsabout 10 hours ago
Mistakes in proofs are relatively common, but such a mistake doesn't automatically mean that the proof is entirely wrong. Many times, the mistake is just in the exposition, and can be fixed easily. Other times, the mistake is fixable and the fix is apparent. Perhaps the author forget to treat a relatively trivial edge case. In the first two cases, the student would likely just pass with minor corrections to be submitted soon.

Sometimes, of course, the proof is just wrong. That is the dangerous case, which will cause either major corrections or failure.

angry_octetabout 10 hours ago
Proof fix-ups are quite common, but if it was not possible, then no, not for that topic.
angry_octetabout 10 hours ago
A recording of a car crash: discovering on live radio/podcast that the central tenet of your book is wrong, and amateurishly so.

Naomi Wolf 'death recorded' on BBC[1], skip to 5:51. After this the book was pulped and she had some sort of psychotic break during COVID and allied with ultra-right and COVID denialist loonies.

[1] https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-48639663

zahlmanabout 9 hours ago
Is the video available not through a proprietary player?

> After this the book was pulped and she had some sort of psychotic break during COVID and allied with ultra-right and COVID denialist loonies.

That's quite an extreme shift considering she had previously been a leading figure in third-wave feminism and an OWS activist.

globnomulousabout 10 hours ago
This is astonishing. How could a person go to the lengths of writing an entire book without ever looking up this sort of thing?
jandreseabout 10 hours ago
> allied with ultra-right and COVID denialist loonies

That makes sense. She wouldn't want to be burned by people doing fact checking again. Write books for the crowd that will never do the legwork to discover that you're full of shit.

derbOacabout 11 hours ago
Inspiring? Because of the twin prime conjecture success following his time in the wilderness? I suppose so.

I'm tired of tales like this in academics though. That's not a criticism of you for telling the tale, I'm just so tired of this kind of thing in academics in general. So, so, so much politics and public reputation management. Zhang should have never had to suffer like that.

As my own research has drifted more into math, I've been surprised at how many assertions in the literature turn out to be false. Not just false, but propagated into the applied literature extensively, and even when you point out the problems a lot of defensiveness and denial about it along the lines of Zhang's story.

I agree about wondering what would have happened if LLMs had been around in 1986. My guess is the outcome would have been the same for the same reasons?

My experience with LLMs in proofs is they can be very helpful, but also very wrong. It's like having another person with another set of hunches about what path to go down.

hintymadabout 11 hours ago
> So, so, so much politics and public reputation management. Zhang should have never had to suffer like that.

Very true. Unfortunately, when there are people, there will be politics. I remember when reading Yau's autobiography, I kept marvel how much calculation, or "politics" if you will, that Yau mentioned or implied in the book.

> My guess is the outcome would have been the same for the same reasons?

At least Zhang didn't have to spend 7 years working on the Jacobian conjecture. He said in an interview that he always wanted to work on number theory. Moh asked him to work on Jacobian, and he obliged.

OG_BMEabout 10 hours ago
ChatGPT's idiomatic translation of the poem:

Yu Xin’s was a life of utter desolation; in old age, his poems and rhapsodies stirred the riverlands.

acchowabout 9 hours ago
Opus:

No life ran more bleak and desolate than Yu Xin's —

yet in his twilight years, his verses stirred the rivers and the passes.

Eufratabout 10 hours ago
I guess that works, it is always difficult to capture the cultural and linguistic melancholy of such poetry.
zahlmanabout 9 hours ago

  Yu Xin's past was exquisitely tragic
  Ages passed; now his works betray magic
satvikpendemabout 13 hours ago
That's a good thing. It saves people wasting time trying to prove something they now know to be false, so that they can move on to other things to prove, it's a more fruitful use of humanity's time overall at least in the field of mathematics.
parpfishabout 12 hours ago
proofs by counterexample are effective but ultimately unsatisfying. they get you to an answer but they don't help help you understand and bend you r mind into seeing how the math works and lead you on to the new set of questions.

and for now as long humans are going to judge of what counts as an elegant or illuminating proof, there's going to be work for human mathematicians

remusabout 11 hours ago
I would only agree partially. There are counterexamples that are not illustrative, but it is fairly common that in thinking about how to construct a counterexample you gain a more thorough understanding of the original problem and at least one fundamental issue which prevents the conjecture from being true.
mb7733about 11 hours ago
Are you thinking of proof by contradiction, which is rejected by constructionism?

[Dis]proof by counterexample is the most straightforward way to show a statement to be false. What better way is there to disprove a general statement like 'all x are y' than finding an 'x' that isn't 'y'?

SpicyLemonZestabout 11 hours ago
It’s very straightforward, but it often doesn’t (and here didn’t) fully satisfy the curiosity that was embedded in the original problem. Why did the Jacobian conjecture seem to be true? Is there some underlying symmetry that’s very slightly broken? Or perhaps there’s all kinds of counterexamples, and the intuitive pattern is only real for certain kinds of functions which happen to predominate in our intuition. Then how should we adjust our intuitions to better capture the space of possible polynomial functions?
delectiabout 11 hours ago
You could spend the rest of your life coming up with conjectures that look elegant but are ultimately false. Disproof by counterexample only works if it's false, and we shouldn't be satisfied with a false conjecture to begin with.
moralestapiaabout 11 hours ago
Not much worth in understanding a statement that is wrong and has been shown wrong.

Unless you want to spend time "proving" that 2 * 2 = 1.

taneqabout 11 hours ago
Maybe I’m just not pure enough but I find the whole concept of proof by counterexample to be elegant, and I don’t see why proving that something must be true is superior to proving that it can’t be false.
bananaflagabout 11 hours ago
You mean proof by contradiction, which is something different.
chowellsabout 11 hours ago
It's elegant if all you're concerned with is whether a conjecture is true or false. Answered, move along!

But mathematics is not a collection of facts. Mathematics is the study of abstraction. And what do you learn from a single data point? What can you abstract from that?

That's why just being a counterexample isn't really interesting. There has to be more than "counterexample" for there to be something to abstract. Was it generated from an analysis of the problem? Can the counterexample be generalized to explore the problem further? Is the counterexample a surprise in a way that suggests something is missing from current understanding?

Being a counterexample doesn't mean that something isn't interesting to a mathematician. But it's also not the interesting part.

DiscoDaysabout 12 hours ago
It is also a good thing, because it helps to refine the theorem statement. At least, my humble experience in CS theory research is that I’d try to prove a theorem I want to be true, find a counterexample, refine the statement, and continue.

P.S. It helps that in CS lots of theorems are about either inductive or coinductive definitions.

soupspacesabout 11 hours ago
Except you can't possibly know that. New insight can arise regardless of whether mathematicians are trying to prove or disprove a statement, and regardless of whether the statement ultimately turns out to be true or false.
FabHKabout 2 hours ago
BTW, counterexamples in mathematics are really important and often help to refine definitions and sharpen proofs.

1) I recommend the wonderful 1976 book Proofs and Refutations by Imre Lakatos.

2) There is a considerable list of books dedicated to counterexamples, e.g. in topology, probability, analysis, etc.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proofs_and_Refutations

[2] https://www.amazon.com/s?k=counterexamples

ykonstant7 minutes ago
Rest in Peace those of us unable to afford those models.
vlovich123about 9 hours ago
> A few days earlier I had got an email from a professor in the maths department here at Imperial, expressing surprise that some of our graduate students were paying $200 per month to access models such as Sol and Fable. He said that he thought that these people were crazy. I did not immediately respond. But after meeting with Andrew I emailed the professor back and told him that in my opinion, any PhD student who was not paying $200 per month to access these tools was crazy. In fact during the workshop I learnt from Harvard PhD student Bryan Wang that Harvard were already giving free Fable access to all PhD students, post-docs and faculty at Harvard.

Yeah, given how much it accelerates grad students to produce meaningful output more quickly, why wouldn’t you make an investment of $2400/student/year. Seems like pennies overall.

dzdtabout 11 hours ago
I suppose it will fall to AI as well to compose the mathematical equivalent of The Ballad of John Henry. Who will be the human champion, the last great hero who can deliver proofs "from the book" that a machine cannot outperform?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Henry_(folklore)

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proofs_from_THE_BOOK

elias_t41 minutes ago
I wonder if at some point mathematicians will be over-flooded with proofs to check and eventually some over confident false claim will make it into math.

Maybe in the future the work of Mathematicians will be like the ones of SWEs with AI, check thousands of lines of AI generated proof and find the subtle errors

angry_octetabout 10 hours ago
I wish I had LLM-built Lean formalisations in university, so much of the math in the slides had errors, and some professors are very bad and ungracious admitting it, while simultaneously rejecting requests for clarifications by saying "the proof is in the slides".

Of course Lean proofs are rarely a good way to understand proofs, but hopefully they can be used to generate more human understandable arguments.

blueTiger3320 minutes ago
as someone who loves math, I want to collaborate with mathematicians to solve some hard problems
amelius41 minutes ago
Next step: "the AI can't find a counterexample, so the conjecture must be true!"
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VladVladikoffabout 12 hours ago
A lot of this math is beyond my comprehension, but it often seems to talk of proofs of theorems. What I want to know is if we continue on this accelerated AI mathematics trajectory, will we eventually be discovering new forms of math that will in turn have some applications down the line in engineering or biomedicine etc? I guess what I’m asking is are we on the cusp of a huge breakthrough for humanity, or largely just proving what was already known?
fatcatsbestcatsabout 8 hours ago
It’s possible. Compressed sensing is one example of what I suppose you could call a new form of math with applications in biomedicine. It can be used to significantly shorten the time required to obtain a MRI scan, which can improve the patient experience and enable more patients to access MRIs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_sensing

hgoelabout 11 hours ago
Engineering and biomedicine, probably in the long term (if at all). But accelerated development of new mathematical methods has a possibility of proving to be relevant for fundamental physics research.

Occasionally large improvements in our models of the universe have been associated with the development of mathematical tools that allow those models to be expressed and/or tested.

koolbaabout 12 hours ago
> will we eventually be discovering new forms of math that will in turn have some applications down the line in engineering or biomedicine etc?

If we do it probably won’t be for a long while. We’re barely using math from a couple hundred years ago for most applied usage.

CurtMonashabout 3 hours ago
A large fraction of the problems assigned in the Ross Program were of the form "Prove or disprove, and salvage if possible." The rest were usually a calculation, meant to motivate a general proposition you would encounter soon after.
bee_riderabout 8 hours ago
How do mathematicians view counter examples? Is it like an unexpected result in the physical sciences: annoying in the moment but potentially stupendously important as it reveals some inaccuracy in the current models? Or is it more like a bug report in coding… probably just, another little annoying detail?
madhadronabout 8 hours ago
Counterexamples are clarifying. For everyone condition in a proof, it's really handy to have a maximally simple, memorable counterexample that makes it fail because it violates that condition. Mathematicians tend to walk around with a bestiary of counterexamples in their heads. It also makes it really easy to recover a theorem because you try to sketch out the statement, and the spiky, memorable counterexamples jump out of your memory and you add conditions to constrain the domain away from them.
unprovableabout 6 hours ago
There are pedagogical books (CF. 'Counterexamples in Topology', 'Counterexamples in Analysis') that teach the nuances of subjects through counterexamples. They're popular as it's sometimes easier to learn details from a pathology or degenerate example than from just learning what is intended.
mynegationabout 11 hours ago
wizzwizz4about 13 hours ago
Human mathematicians have been being out-counterexampled for at least two decades. The main difference, as I understand, is that (A) we now have a lot more compute to throw at such things, and (B) it is currently trendy to do so. But the sizes of counterexample we're seeing are around about what I'd expect pre-generative-AI counterexample search systems to be able to find.

It's not easy to find a counterexample to the Jacobian conjecture, by any means – by which I mean to say that naïve brute-force search will take too long – but the scope of existing searches listed on Wikipedia[0] suggest that many tricks are already known, and that people just hadn't looked, systematically, for a counterexample in three variables before. Wikipedia writes:

> Tzuong-Tsieng Moh checked the conjecture for polynomials of degree at most 100 in two variables.[17][18]

where reference 17 is from 1983, and reference 18 is a preprint with no given date. Knowing very little about this problem, my impulse is to side with the unnamed faculty member cited in the article:

> [who] said to me that the fact that the counterexample was so easy to find just indicated that humans had not spent enough time thinking about the problem,

For context, the auto-generated counterexample is in three variables, has degree 7, and was discovered in 2026.

korbonitsabout 3 hours ago
Which conjectures will be proven false via counterexample next? Dixmier? Poisson?
trenchgunabout 3 hours ago
They are already proven false through Jacobian conjecture having been proved false.
luciana1uabout 10 hours ago
the AI doesn't even gloat. a rival mathematician would at least title their paper 'a remark on the falsity of...'
QuesnayJrabout 13 hours ago
If the poster's (is it Kevin Buzzard?) suggestion works out and AI finds a counterexample to the Hodge conjecture, that would be a really big deal. It's one of the Millenium problems, for example.

One thing that he mentions that already quite surprising is that AI was able to autoformalize the Golod-Shaferevich theorem and proof.

mcshicksabout 12 hours ago
It is Kevin Buzzard. It's kinda small font on my phone but if you look at the "about xena" link it says it's his site.
williamsteinabout 11 hours ago
Agreed, it's definitely Kevin. His writing style is unmistakable.
OG_BMEabout 11 hours ago
I think he was being provocative and maybe a bit tongue-in-cheek when he said that. A candidate object alone doesn't resolve the Hodge Conjecture. Any apparent counterexample would have to prove that no algebraic cycle exists, no invariant subspace exists, or that every element of an infinite ideal is nilpotent. Much harder, but not impossible.
paulpauperabout 13 hours ago
mathematicians have been using computers for well over half a century, but this was after "bounding" the problem first and then running through the cases with a computer. Now AI is doing the first part. However, mathematicians are still needed at crafting prompts, and knowing where to look, still. The prompt for the Jacobian conjecture was obviously not random. the search space is too big to just try all the combinations of 3 variable polynomials.
skinner_about 10 hours ago
Okay, I'm not sure about the original one, but here is the prompt of a successful reproduction:

https://aaronlou.com/jacobian_counterexample_prompt.pdf

Obviously it is not random, but it's very generic. No mention of search space or how to reduce it.

hobonationabout 13 hours ago
This is the best take. Computers don't care about this stuff. A computer could make a movie, but only a human can appreciate it.

We're a good team, and that's ok.

criddellabout 12 hours ago
For now. I wonder if we will ever get to the point where the computer starts doing mathematics that we just can't understand. Surely there must be some limit to what we can understand (like how a gorilla will never understand prime numbers, there are probably limits to our intelligence as well).
zeroonetwothreeabout 12 hours ago
Mathematics only really matters insofar as humans can understand it.
skinner_about 13 hours ago
> The prompt for the Jacobian conjecture was obviously not random. the search space is too big to just try all the combinations of 3 variable polynomials.

Maybe the prompt contained a part like this: "the search space is too big to just try all the combinations of 3 variable polynomials, so be clever about it". Or maybe this part was omitted from the prompt, because modern LLMs are smart enough to figure this out without us having to mention it.

jknoepflerabout 12 hours ago
If someone has written that in a paper or article they've ingested, as they no doubt have, then sure.
jameshartabout 10 hours ago
The ability of LLMs to solve problems is not confined to the training data they ingested. Claude knows how to read mathematical papers because of its training data, but it can and will pull in literature relevant to a specific problem into its context.

We really need to stop thinking about LLM training data as the knowledgebase they build from and instead consider it more the skillset they start with.

sesmabout 12 hours ago
I don't think there was a 'prompt' for it, rather a long and dedicated work of a professional mathematician which involved LLM in some capacity. I'm sure the search step wasn't an ad-hoc script running in a Claude Code session (as somebody would naively assume), it was an optimized numerical code running in Anthropic's compute cluster. Note that details are not published yet and `__alpoge__` is officially working at Anthropic.
nephihahaabout 12 hours ago
"Outcounterexampled": there's a neologism worthy of German.
FabHKabout 11 hours ago
Übergegenbeispielt.
soupspacesabout 11 hours ago
vibe counterexamplemaxxing
prmphabout 10 hours ago
Better as one word "vibecounterexamplemaxxing"
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riazrizviabout 11 hours ago
The framing in these posts is nonsense. ChatGPT isn't doing shit. Human mathematicians using ChatGPT are breaking boundaries.
logicalleeabout 9 hours ago
so if I tell a model "using your advanced knowledge of physics and chemistry 'make alchemy work' (synthesize gold using any cheaper materials) using safe materials legal for a residential hobby chemist with 1 semester of lab work in college to possess and use (this is obviously the really hard part) using less than $1,000 in lab equipment and input materials that can create $2,000 in value at market rate; then walk me through all the steps to do this safely and legally without anyone finding out except the lab equipment sellers; and tell me what a reasonable story to tell gold purchasers regarding where I got it; I'd like to end up selling a few thousand dollars of it without disrupting the market. Give me practical advice about good opsec so that nobody steals the method you come up with (I don't want my home broken into by thieves who suspect I figured out how to transmute cheap materials into gold), other than, obviously, not to post about it. Think as long as you need to about the chemistry and how to do it, you're a chemistry expert and can figure it out even if it takes you like a week, in your web searches be careful not to divulge that you're figuring out how to synthesize gold", and I give that prompt to some model that knows chemistry like the back of its hand, it thinks about it for four hours, finds the correct safe and legal steps, and gives me the recipe and the advice I asked for, then who figured out how to turn aluminum (or another cheap element) into gold, me or the model? In mathematics, proving or disproving a well known and well studied one hundred year old conjecture is gold.