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50% Positive

Analyzed from 2884 words in the discussion.

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#debt#more#currency#money#government#inflation#tax#problem#taxes#country

Discussion (86 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

juujian•about 2 hours ago
Upsetting how we are reaching these lows while the administration is accusing everyone else of wasting taxpayer money except for themselves. At least under previous administrations you would get something for your money, like science funding and healthcare for the needy, not just bombing runs and posturing.
rayiner•5 minutes ago
[delayed]
joinjune•about 2 hours ago
Both can be true. The previous administration bailed out the unfunded pension funds of cities and state employees when they did Covid-19 bailouts despite it having nothing to do with Covid-19 and without requiring these local governments to properly fund these pensions moving forward. They bailed these pension programs out many times more than their financial support for restaurants they forced closed. Basically, America has an economy that is buoyed by AI development and infrastructure spending right now but is poised to pop and the national debt has been ballooned by two to three generations of political leadership failing to properly address underlying issues and instead printing money.
notfromhere•about 2 hours ago
The problem is that half the political system thinks you can cut taxes and grow revenues.

Which is an intentional strategy to repeal social programs that they’d never get the votes to do so via legislation

rayiner•4 minutes ago
[delayed]
citrin_ru•about 1 hour ago
It's a difficult tradeoff. By taxing more and more it's easy to send the economy into the death spiral so to grow the revenue without killing the economy you need economic growth. Cutting taxes will not give the growth aromatically but carefully designed tax system with low taxes where it helps should be a part of the strategy.

In practice though tax cuts usually make rich richer without helping the economy to grow (because of lobbying/corruption).

ModernMech•about 1 hour ago
Right they (the politicians) don't actually think that, they just say that to get cooked projections. Once those revenue projections turn out to be false, it doesn't matter because they already have their tax cuts baked in. Then everyone can blame the other side for deficits and campaign on fixing it. Rinse and repeat.
bilsbie•about 1 hour ago
The problem is not that we aren’t taxed enough— it’s that our government lights cash on fire

Here is some absurd garbage your US taxes paid for:

•$1.5 Million studying the effects of yoga on goats

•$1.7 billion maintaining empty buildings

•$5 million on a campaign to promote an alternative music scene to get hipsters to stop smoking

•$2 million to create an internship program that resulted in the hiring of one full-time employee at the Department of agriculture

•In 2021 alone, the government managed to misplace $281 billion in payments

•$1 million studying the effects of music on dairy cows

•$1.7 million to study the effects of alcohol on fish

jhickok•about 1 hour ago
It's likely not politically feasible for a genuine attempt at right-sizing our budget, although we have had attempts (short-lived) in the past. Blaming a political party for this is pointless, although there is a party that has postured as the fiscal adult in the room.

It could be a very messy bubble if/when it collapses, and I think our way out at this point would have to be AI-driven productivity gains. Hopefully Altman's little wish-granting machine ends up being accurate.

toomuchtodo•about 1 hour ago
Bailing out workers is okay. They are, by definition, the people who have done the work. Bailing out the wealthy, or tax cuts for them is not. Unless you are very wealthy, you are a worker, and unless you experience a lottery winning type event, will never be very wealthy.

> Basically, America has an economy that is buoyed by AI development and infrastructure spending right now but is poised to pop and the national debt has been ballooned by two to three generations of political leadership failing to properly address underlying issues and instead printing money.

Maybe we shouldn't have spent five decades giving the wealthy tax break after tax break while hollowing out the middle class and suppressing wages with union busting and globalization. Productivity is up ~90% over this time frame, and most of the gains have gone to the top 1%. But here we are. The bill has come due for strip mining the country economically, and taxes will go up to pay down this debt (because only the top ~40% of income earners have enough income to have a federal tax liability). We will fix this eventually through demographic compression (economic growth comes, broadly speaking, from population growth and the US has reached peak population; forward growth will be substantially lower than the past when the population was growing rapidly), politics, and the bond market forcing the US government to raise taxes (“bond vigilantes”).

chasd00•about 1 hour ago
> forcing the US government to raise taxes.

it won't be the wealthy or cash-under-the-table classes paying these taxes, the increases will be in the income brackets. Which means paycheck receiving working stiffs ( middle and upper-middle class ) and retierees drawing from a 401k/IRA are the ones who will pay just like always.

quickthrowman•about 1 hour ago
> Bailing out workers is okay. Bailing out the wealthy, or tax cuts for them is not.

Hell, between PPP and the OBBB tax cuts, rich people are getting $2T over from the YS Governemnt from 2020-2030. It’ll keep happening too, this country is an oligarchy now. Wish it wouldn’t but I don’t see a sea change coming, just further concentration of wealth and power.

throwaway894345•about 2 hours ago
There are more than two numbers, so we don't have to force this weird "it's either 0% waste or 100% waste" dichotomy. No one is claiming the Biden admin didn't waste a cent, the claim is that the Trump administration is wasting _orders of magnitude_ more money than the Biden administration.
Taikonerd•about 2 hours ago
It always gives me an ominous feeling to see these headlines. It's like we're walking out further and further on a frozen lake. "Hey, it's OK, the ice hasn't cracked yet! Let's keep going!"
danesparza•about 1 hour ago
I think that's a pretty solid (pun intended) metaphor.

Past performance is not a predictor of future returns.

petcat•about 1 hour ago
I've always heard people say that the US debt doesn't matter when the debt itself is denominated in USD.

It's the old saying, if you owe the bank $1,000 then you have a problem. But if you owe the bank a trillion dollars then the bank has a problem.

Especially when that trillion dollars was spent on an insane fleet of aircraft carriers.

eigenspace•about 1 hour ago
This idea is based on the fantasy idea of "it's fine because the US can just inflate away its currency to reduce its debts". This is also often used as an argument for why countries shouldn't join the Euro because they'd be giving up an important tool.

The reality is that purposefully inflating your currency to reduce your debt burden is going to upset your creditors just as much as if you just defaulted on your debts, but will have the added affect of crippling your economy with inflation. Look at how much Americans freaked out over a year or two of 6% yearly inflation. How do you think Americans would respond to 30% *monthly* inflation like in Argentina or Turkey?

It's not like lenders won't notice if the USA tried to print its way out of debt.

ghastmaster•26 minutes ago
> It's not like lenders won't notice if the USA tried to print its way out of debt.

For historical context, this is exactly what happened when the US was on the brink of leaving the gold standard.

> From 1963 to 1966, France secretly implemented Operation Vide-Gousset to repatriate 3,313 tons of gold reserves from the Bank of England and the New York Federal Reserve. It took over 44 boat trips and 129 flights to export the gold back to the Banque de France. Since France converted its dollar holdings into gold, the French made out well when the dollar fell during the Bretton Woods period and lost 96% of its value against gold. France then withdrew from the London Gold Pool in 1966 after recovering its gold holdings to force the US to endure heavier losses.

https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/markets-by-sector/preciou...

theappsecguy•44 minutes ago
To be fair, it wasn't 6%. The consumer basket gets manipulated in all sorts of ways, but in general it's just not an accurate representation of day to day impact. Food and housing went up much much higher than 6%.
chasd00•about 1 hour ago
currency manipulation seems to be working for China though.

https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/sm751

xnx•about 1 hour ago
This used to be true, but less so after the US started alienating the rest of the world with tariffs and other erratic behavior. The US military has also been revealed to be incapable of controlling the strait of Hormuz.
bcjdjsndon•about 1 hour ago
Except it's not a bank, it's a country with a few hundred million people that need to work and eat. Once the lenders have a problem, it would already be the end for Americans.
cucumber3732842•about 1 hour ago
The quiet part you're not supposed to say out loud is the "if you don't use our currency to transact for energy and thereby let us tax it via inflation we'll regime change you" implication it comes with.
kingleopold•about 1 hour ago
end is probably ww btw. so are you all ready? last time it did work and lost of war debt was paid
pydry•about 1 hour ago
Total debt / GDP is the wrong metric for that. There's no limit to the serviceability of debt in a currency you print.

It makes more sense to conceptualise it as the total size of a giant savings account run by the government.

We are walking further out on the ice but that is measured more in other ways - with harder metrics like inflation, access to cheap energy, resources, industrial density and capabilities and access to technology - not this headline number.

somenameforme•about 1 hour ago
Even if we just ignore inflation and other issues, there's still a hard limit because governments don't literally just print money, but sells bonds at market rates. As confidence in the economic stability declines the interest rates the government is required to offer on those bonds trends upward. So right now even 10 year treasuries are selling with just under 5% interest. As a result we're now paying $1.4 trillion per year in interest alone, and that number is going up far faster than the economy is growing. This [1] graph looks quite disconcerting. And it's a vicious cycle. The less confidence there is in the stability of this game, the more the government will have to pay to sell that debt. And the more they have to pay, the more debt they end up needing.

[1] - https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/A180RC1A027NBEA

torginus•about 1 hour ago
Why is this a meaningful figure? It's not debt that matters its how much it costs to finance it. It's Finance 101 that if you manage to borrow below inflation rate, and you have the luck that what you paid for appreciates, then your debt will disappear over time.

On the contrary, trivial amounts of money with usury can ruin you financially.

eigenspace•29 minutes ago
This Finance 101 perspective is too clever by half.

Sounds like a great idea, right? But what if something out of your control[1] happens, and average interest rates on the debt burden go up from 2% to 14%? The USA can't afford to just pay off all of its debts. It must continuallly roll over it's old debts to new debts, and could easily find itself in a situation where debt servicing costs go up by an order of magnitude if the fiscal situation changes for long enough.

[1] Or in the case of the United States, you do something very stupid and very inside of your control

bbayles•about 1 hour ago
Debt-to-GDP ratio is useful for comparing the debt loads of two countries, but not terribly useful in assessing the serviceability of debt for a single country.

That is, suppose two countries both have $100B in debt. One of them is a small island nation; the other is a global superpower. Obviously the global superpower will be better able to handle that - dividing by GDP helps make that clear.

However, this simple division doesn't tell you some important things. How much of the debt comes due very soon? It's worse if the answer is "most of it." How was it incurred? "Winning a war" is much better than "losing a war."

The United States has lots of debt, and personally I'm worried about the long term serviceability of it. But the ratio to GDP isn't why!

hirako2000•about 1 hour ago
But the doesn't come due. So long as you can cough up the interests.
bbayles•about 1 hour ago
There are short term and long term bonds.
hirako2000•12 minutes ago
Effectively the debt does not mature, as bonds get refinanced.

The problem is if nobody wants to buy new bonds, of course.

sumanthvepa•about 1 hour ago
Not an American, but I would argue that this level while little bit of a concern is not a huge issue for a superpower that borrows in its own currency and has the military and economic might to crush any party (sovereign or corporate) attempting move away from that system.

You guys are too powerful.

Eji1700•about 1 hour ago
Some of that power comes from things like US Treasuries being rock solid, and this is the sort of thing that could change that. There are other players out there and other ways the world could trade and fiance.

There's a LOT of reasons for them to not want to do that, and the status quo benefits a lot of other powerful players as well, but screwing up treasuries would be a quick way to change that math.

Zigurd•about 1 hour ago
We are still too powerful, but we're squandering that power alarmingly fast. We have destroyed diplomatic soft power. Our software industry used to be able to rely on getting 50% of their revenue outside the US, but we can't be trusted now, and that market can no longer be counted on.

One can get away with being an asshole only so long.

Taikonerd•about 1 hour ago
Maybe so, but our weakness is that we depend on new debt to finance our government spending. If investors stopped buying that debt, the US government would have to make sudden, dramatic spending cuts.

And that's not a problem that's solvable with military might! "Investors around the world are declining to buy US government bonds" can't be bombed the way an oil refinery can be.

stldev•about 1 hour ago
Reserve status is based on confidence. The US can't bomb markets into trusting the dollar. They've already begun diversifying away from it.
kevin_thibedeau•about 1 hour ago
It's not a problem when other nations borrow in the fiat currency. They're being taught to seek alternative, more tolerable regimes to invest in. Once they establish a better alternative they won't come back.
wobblyasp•about 1 hour ago
Some things feel impossible until they happen.
thesuitonym•about 1 hour ago
We seem to be lacking in military might lately, and are increasingly losing economic might.
itsyonas•about 1 hour ago
Bingo! Any country borrowing in its own sovereign currency cannot default on debt in that currency, unless it actively decides to do so for political reasons.
branko_d•about 1 hour ago
Sure, but it can still have hyperinflation.
eigenspace•about 1 hour ago
This is a fantasy. Do you really think lenders would just not notice if America inflated its currency away to get rid of its debts, and they'd just say "aw shucks you got us. Anyways, here's a new loan at the same terms as last time." ?

And what about the American public? Look at how much Americans freaked out over a year or two of 6% yearly inflation. How do you think Americans would respond to 30% monthly inflation like in Argentina or Turkey?

sentrysapper•about 2 hours ago
Slaps the hood of a cybertruck

This bad boy can hold a LOT of debt.

nekusar•about 2 hours ago
This country is a cybertruck.
selimthegrim•about 1 hour ago
Wait, I thought we were a gun.
blipvert•about 1 hour ago
You are Brian Bilston, and I claim my ÂŁ5
windexh8er•about 1 hour ago
...stuck in a half inch of snow on a public road.
tchalla•about 1 hour ago
Let the market decide

Applies only if you are the reserve currency, label everyone else who don't use your currency the way you want it as currency manipulators and you can take whatever debt you want because well the printer can pay everything back in the future.

harmmonica•about 1 hour ago
The stock and real estate market, huge sources of wealth for the us population, are still near all-time highs and many people, tens of millions at least, have way more real money than they’ve ever had in their lives, and yet a massive number of those people would rather not take a hit to their wealth when it’s easiest to absorb the hit and instead prefer cutting things that even they like the government providing (medicare this week the latest example in an endless number of examples these past months). It really is crazy how wealth-obsessed many Americans are.

And I say that as an absolute hater of how the pols run the place (yes both sides. One for having no sense of how to manage money and the other having some sense but ignoring it; one of these is objectively worse than the other (yep, I said it, objectively!)).

Seems like the end goal is not to have a country left but instead a bunch of factions more likely to be at war fighting over cash, resources and culture issues. Depressing as fuck for those of us not excited about that end goal.

FergusArgyll•about 1 hour ago
Everyone hates regulations until they realize every regulation actually does something. Everyone hates spending until they realize the money goes towards something.

None of this will get solved until a crisis

Zsfe510asG•about 2 hours ago
The wisdom was that the US dollar due to its exorbitant privilege (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exorbitant_privilege#Origin) can afford these debts.

Countries put up with it because the US "provided protection" and insured maritime freedom of navigation. Oh wait ...

wyldberry•about 1 hour ago
Dangerously close to discovering the premise of Accidental Superpower from first principles.
toomuchtodo•about 1 hour ago
This Is Probably Fine! by Patrick Boyle - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nvsDmwZWdM - May 29th, 2026

> US 30-year Treasury yields just hit 5.2% — the highest level since July 2007. UK gilt yields are at levels not seen since 1998. Japanese bond yields are at record highs. Something is happening in global bond markets, and it's not just about inflation. In this video I explain what's driving the global rise in long-term borrowing costs, why the era of free money is probably over, and what fiscal dominance means for central bank independence. I cover the history of US presidents fighting with the Federal Reserve — including LBJ shoving his Fed Chair against a wall — the 1970s UK economic collapse, the Liz Truss mini-budget crisis, the role of private credit and off-balance-sheet SPVs in financing the AI boom, and what all of this means for the new Federal Reserve Chair Kevin Warsh.

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epolanski•about 2 hours ago
The entire world is super leveraged at levels generally seen during major recessions or wars.

And that's excluding the huge amount of multi tiered private credit.

While this is not an indication of anything bad on its own it definitely creates the conditions for cataclysms.

It's like being on a very very dry hay field, it does not mean that you're bound to die on fire, it just means that the risks of a fire being extremely destructive are high.

adolph•about 2 hours ago
On the bright side it isn't growing and is down from the pandemic-era 132% of GDP. (Although maybe that was because GDP shrank rather than any change in fundamental debt.)
_trampeltier•about 1 hour ago
The GDP was a little smaler during Covid. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/GDP/
danesparza•about 1 hour ago
Are we looking at the same graph?

It appeared to drop from the 2020 highs, yes.

But it's definitely trending upward.

deadbabe•about 2 hours ago
This still isn’t too bad compared to other countries, also, most of the AI industry profits are still yet to be fully realized.
somenameforme•about 1 hour ago
I think you're being sarcastic, but can't quite tell.

If you're not - this is the 10th worst ratio in the world. The only countries worse are: Venezuela, Japan, Sudan, Singapore, Eritrea, Bahrain, Greece, Lebanon, and Italy. The difference has historically been that we've been able to exploit the dollar, export our inflation, and so on - but those times are fading.

drnick1•about 1 hour ago
No, those times are not fading. We are constantly opening up new revenue streams, like Venezuela, and maybe soon Iran too.
faefox•about 2 hours ago
AI industry profits have and will continue to be privatized while the enormous costs of job displacement (to name just one of many negative externalities) will be gleefully socialized. We've seen this film before.
doctorwho42•about 2 hours ago
Assuming it doesn't mirror the dotcom bubble
jgbuddy•about 2 hours ago
time to buy bitcoin
thesuitonym•about 1 hour ago
If you think bitcoin will hold value as economies are collapsing, I have some beachfront property to sell you.

...Actually I have an NFT of some beachfront property.

hypeatei•about 1 hour ago
Haha, so you can bribe the President? I hope this comment is satire.

The "masses" are well aware of crypto at this point and BTC is down 47% over this past year. It's just not that useful unless you're trying to skirt laws/regulations[1] or LARPing as a sovereign citizen.

1: Yes, I know, BTC is not even good pick for financial crimes either.

jgbuddy•26 minutes ago
Sounds like you should short it then!
kevin_thibedeau•about 1 hour ago
Pardons go for $3M these days.
sampton•about 1 hour ago
I wonder what the exit plan is. One time conversion of social security into Trump accounts and call it a day?
chasd00•41 minutes ago
just want to say, whether you like the name/admin or not those accounts are a very good deal. Setting up one for a new born is a get-out-financial-mistakes (cc/student loan debt etc) free card when they grow up and get access to the money. If you're smart and can make some decent deposits in the first year or two that could easily become a buy-a-house-for-free card which would be an absolute treasure for kickstarting a young person's financial life.

It's too late for my kids but if i'm ever lucky enough to have grandkids part of their bday and Christmas gifts will be deposits.

rawgabbit•about 1 hour ago
An executive order declaring a newly created legal entity is now the holder of all previous debt. The new entity has no assets or revenues, other than Trumpcoin.
malux85•about 1 hour ago
Load all of your debt onto another enormous country. Go to war with them, make debt elimination one of the terms of peace
_trampeltier•about 1 hour ago
I remember something, like gold taken from Iraq.