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Maybe I got lucky but I called the customer service, told the lady I did not agree with the Windows license terms, fully ready to argue my case and she just went "oh, ok, let me just edit a new invoice and wire you the money for Windows plus the Antivirus plus etc.".
Which was extra nice because I had no idea I was in fact charged for the bloatware, but I still got ~50€ for it on top of the OS license price.
This being 15 years ago it feels like a forever unsolved issue. My opinion remains the same, that a personal computer should not be tied to a specific OS. But now with smartphones the hardware/software (de)coupling situation seems even worse.
I also have a similar suspicion that that order has been lost to time, partly because it's very rare that people do that (and Dell even offers Linux machines to those who do care), partly because the support's been outsourced to someone who hasn't read that part of the script, and partly because the world has become more hostile towards consumers during the past 15 years.
I actually expected those to pay for being pre-installed, offsetting or possibly even exceeding the cost of the Windows license.
Use laptop for a few months, than finally boot windows install...
https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/blog/windows-itpro-blog/...
Part of my motivation was that one of the machines was still on Windows 7, but more than anything it was the incessant push to associate my OS account with an online Microsoft account, and the cramming of Copilot into everything, that have left a bad taste in my mouth.
Even used it to make a task bar applet adjacent to Media Controls, where I can rate the current plexamp song without having to open plexamp.
A big plus of linux is the easy ability to use workspaces and switch between them with a hover over the workspace taskbar applet and the mousewheel (and other options).
You're in a better place today than back then as finding software solutions to common problems is much easier now.
For other OS needs, just virtualize. I started off using VMware Workstation, after a decade (or so) transitioned to Virtualbox, and now today, virt-manager (qemu, kvm through libvirt).
> Device manufacturers and vendors should not impose an operating system or software on consumers
This is not a reasonable expectation.
Hardware needs software to work, and software runs on an operating system. You can't expect every vendor in the work of every kind of product you can buy to offer you a slightly different version than you would like to buy.
You can do that with software, too. It just turns out that there's more people who want to bundle their software
> The vendors do not remove the Windows license, and you must pay the entire price, even if you do not want to use this system.
Surely if you don't want Windows you just boot from a usb drive and install another OS without having to pay them anything. Its not like Windows can stop you from installing another OS, right?
So even if on the first boot you just immediately booted into whatever other operating system, you still paid for Windows.
I’m pretty sure (though I have no record of it) that I asked ASUS Australia through their online channels before I bought my current laptop six years ago, and they said no. I never tried following it up more closely. In truth at that stage I didn’t mind having a Windows license, it was convenient for testing certain things occasionally. But I haven’t booted into it for at least three years now other than a couple of times to verify that the keyboard problems are hardware, not software.
Got my money back from the store after 15 minutes of quoting the specific law.
The Windows boxes had the ToS on the outside though.
And yeah, Asus DOES need to sell windows laptops because the market demands it, but it doesn't mean they need to follow all of Microsoft's rules/goals. ("Pleeeeease put an NPU in every laptop and advertise copilot for us, pleeeease") Giving them a steep discount gives Microsoft a lever to pull if they feel like punishing an OEM later, though with the goal of avoiding anything that halts the sale of PCs with windows on it, which is bad for all parties.
You can't really model that on a supply/demand curve. Microsoft supplies Windows licenses, but Asus supplies a big chunk of market access. A license to software is an infinitely available resource which only has a value determined by the market's willingness to pay for it; a market that microsoft has historically been dogshit at accessing themselves. (Surface product line, for example)
After drowning my last laptop in tea I needed a PC urgently and bought ASUS. Had I known that a refund was possible, would I have applied, to get what amounts to £10 refund on a £2K machine?
I am not sure!
The Windows install means my laptop has some value in the second-hand market, should I need to sell. Without it, I am not going to easily find a buyer, because it is still not yet 'the year of the Linux desktop', and even then, stock Ubuntu is not as fashionable as some other Linux variants.
What did surprise me was how flaky Windows is these days. If memory serves me correctly, I needed to boot into Windows to turn 'bitlocker' off, in order to resize the drive for my Ubuntu partition. However, there was no UI to turn 'bitlocker' on again afterwards. Allegedly I need a 'pro' version of Windows to do that, since the UI is just absent from the 'Home' version of Windows.
This process means that I did 'accept the EULA' and therefore denied myself the opportunity to claim back the Windows tax. Drat!
In previous decades I kept the Windows install just in case I needed MS Office or Adobe products to do work. MS Outlook was the 'gotcha', but then they got the web version of MS Outlook working acceptably.
Nowadays I am quite confident that there is nothing Windows that I want, so this use case has gone, yet I have new rationale to keep paying the Windows tax, to 'insure' my PC with some resale value.
I wish manufacturers such as ASUS provided Linux support, even if in a 'community' guise, so as to not upset Microsoft. With my example, I needed to change the power setting on the Wifi card to ensure that Bluetooth worked for the mouse. That was it, yet I had to work that out for myself, with no instructions provided. If I was completely new to Linux then I might have struggled with this or lacked the confidence to spend £2K on a machine that might not run my chosen OS.
In 2026 we still have a long way to go!
No one at Apple paid for a macOS license on your behalf in any sense a legal regime might recognize so there is nothing to be refunded if you choose not to accept the license. It’s one of the many, many structural advantages of vertical integration.
Here's a few examples:
- https://www.dell.com/pt-br/shop/notebooks-dell/notebook-dell...
- https://www.dell.com/it-it/shop/notebook-dell/nuovo-notebook...
I ended up not buying their computer.
I still want a refund. I feel pretty stupid.
Utterly pointless waste of time. If I see a vendor offering Linux/FreeDOS, I buy that.
If you've had any success in the UK getting a refund, please correct me, but I think time is probably better spent writing to the MP about it as the consumer should have choice when the options are MS or Apple.
IANAL, but Windows is already installed, so IMO this wouldn't apply. OOBE is not installation, it's setup.
Judge's verdict seems solid though.
Sorry, if this offends anyone, but Windows (non-Server editions) is a junk OS that I never ever want to see or use again.
For document editing or code it’s pretty awesome but a sluggish web is a deal breaker for many these days.
I agree that it's a dealbreaker, and the circumstances in which it can happen are opaque and difficult to troubleshoot.
Luckily these days with anything released since 2020- it's a lot better. Linux still struggles a lot with JS runtimes on Skylake.
While I am throwing Linux under the bus a bit here, I am still perplexed that we use an exceptionally inefficient language as the major application delivery system of the modern day. We complain that it uses a lot of RAM and is slow, but if you consider what javascript is compared to how CPUs think about things, it's a miracle we get what we get... we managed to get a marvel of engineering and the response has been to shove millions of lines of code through it... At some point, yeah, it's slow.
Unless it’s a post-Intel Mac, and that’s all of them these days.
are serious? web is sluggish anywhere... and this is a common "trend"
SSD generally adds 3x to that speed due to access latency for small files.
I remember pressing power button and leaving my PC alone to get a tea or something when I was booting my Windows installation which I had around for gaming. Same with an SSD. Desktop arrives faster, CPU still choked to launch whatever services are needed, fans are doubling as hair dryers.
Both scenarios were on the same machine, BTW.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
2. windows + ssd
3. linux + ssd
I know that Linux can greatly speed up startup, but more likely that ssd gave bigger impact.
Anything more than 3 seconds and less than 45 seconds is perceptibly the same, it's the same level of inconvenience unless you're in a rush.
.. but I can't honestly tell you the last time I booted my Macbook from cold.
Worthwhile suspend/resume is a much better goal for the modern computer user... Windows fucked us all with s2idle, including themselves.
> suspend/resume
Hard agree. Frustrating that I’ve still never had a non-Mac yet that I can just shut the lid and know that it won’t be blowing fans, apparently running, in my freaking backpack. Or wake up randomly in the middle of the night disturbing my sleep.
Nor can I be confident that when I open it, I’ll see the login screen already ready to go. How is this so hard? I would understand with Linux or with a home-built PC. But shouldn’t Lenovo and HP be able to make sleep work correctly?
For instance there's a fair number of old laptops which exist now that can't play full screen 1080p content from youtube inside a browser without extensively dropping frames (way below a smooth 30 fps) because the cpu/video hardware has no support for hardware acceleration of the codecs in use. Even if the laptop has a 1920x1200 or 1920x1080 screen. Additionally they will struggle heavily with 100% CPU load doing something like running any video conference webRTC app (generally equivalent to google meet) in a browser tab.
Complexity of features and more computationally intensive things will still obsolete an old system even if it's running an 'optimal' non windows OS.
Some people realized this 25 years ago
60% of my time spending on windows is wasted in refreshing/slowstartup/installing bloat and updates/.
Clicking next > next etc multiple time just to install one software.
Winget is not upto mark like apt and other unix package managers. As soon as i install chocolatey or 3rd party it starts to stall even more
Initially i formatted whole installed fresh no external or extra software just bare bone fresh win 10 install
Yet its slow as turtle. And windows standard installation iso is 5gb multi iso. So it waste a lot of my bandwidth. Plus it does'nt let iso download on desktop browser. And only with phone useragent you get downloadable link, and phone doesnt have much space to store 5gb file Cherry on top even if i download 5gb file on phone i cannot transfer it to pc as standard usb is limited to 4GB per file. So i had to install additional ssh or feem or other software for wireless transfer. Or had to use non standard browser on phone to capture download link copy it to pc and downlod.
Even after that creating unattended installation is mess and require ntlite or other and hours of waste. And now newer isos despite adding ei.cfg and pid.txt the version selection menu does not appear it enforces installation of win10 home the native laptop was bought with. So hours wasting to upgrade it to pro.
So finally this year i decided to move to linux. Keeping window as secondary. But could noy decide due to myriad of varieties. Choice is majorly between Mint or Fedora
I def have all kinds of warm feelings towards the moment I first installed W ‘95 but wow I can’t imagine having that UX as my daily OS today.
(The slide-to-unlock on the original iPhone OS comes to mind as an analogy on the phone: babies could figure it out, but by iOS 7 they figured enough people knew how to unlock that they could make it less obvious.)
Most avoid gimmick Windows/MacOS themes, as they know these tend to be unmaintainable over the long-term.
Keep in mind most Linux desktop options tend to be power-user focused, high contrast for outdoor use, and eye candy entertainment options just waste peoples time. =3
I haven't tried Fedora in like 20 years, but I remember odd things being broken, adding up to a death by a thousand cuts, but I've never had a bad time with Mint (or anything based on Debian).
Everyone has an opinion on distros, but Linux Mint with the Cinnamon desktop is going to be easiest to migrate over use wise (looks like XP/win7.) Debian family of OS like Linux Mint or Ubuntu 26.04 LTS support most drivers like Brother network laser printers and scanners (check support before buying.)
For most users, Linux Mint will work with your hardware out of the box. Again, do a quick laptop model search to see what others say about your hardware drivers in a specific distro. Note, Ubuntu 26.04 with rtx 5070 ti needs a bit of driver customization, and quite a bit of patches to be pleasant. =3
The few times I needed a key, it worked the first time. And for a friend who needed Win11, the upgrade from 10 Pro to 11 worked first time.
I'd never pay more than $5 per Windows key. But I prefer Linux instead.
"Oh, you need more backup space! Take this special offer now for more storage, only $NN a month".
But with the horrendous performance and scam behavior, Ive heelped others to Linux to really good effect.
Just theres that 1 person who *needed* Windows and all the abusiv behaviors it inflicts. It was more akin to "Executives dont get fired for recommending IBM/Microsoft", and a utter refusal to try something better. Theyve been a friend for 2 decades, so I gave them the warning, but did help them.
How about this: don't buy a product that you don't want.
If you don't want Windows, then buy a product that doesn't come with Windows. Buy from System 76 or another vendor that sells the product that you want.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Refund_Day
[2] https://www.wired.com/1999/01/the-non-refundable-refund/
[3] https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/library/tech/99/...
[4] http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/279926.stm
How about laptop manufacturers stop making shady deals with Microsoft to force its OS on everyone?
It’s crazy how many passes these companies get. A huge number of them are still selling high-end laptops with Intel chips because they signed agreements that effectively prohibit them from offering AMD variants.
Let's stop pretending like any of this is acceptable.
> Want to buy a licence-free PC directly? Search for your nearest Linux-friendly shop on LinuxSi! (Italian-only).
It's like going car shopping and having a choice of a dozen brands and 8 or 10 different types of subcompact, compact, sports cars, compact SUVs, full size SUVs, minivans, EVs from each manufacturer. But no, you can only buy this specific model of Toyota Camry or or maybe 3 different models of Hyundai. Oh, you wanted something else? So sorry
I mean, I bought a random Intel N150 with 12GB RAM, 256GB SSD mini PC on Amazon to run Home Assistant on, it came with windows 11 out of the box and immediately got wiped. If I'd gone buying only the equivalent hardware that came with no OS or linux on it I would have paid hundreds more for the exact same thing.