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#game#more#games#don#companies#industry#software#business#money#same

Discussion (219 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

munificent•about 14 hours ago
1. Human attention is a finite resource.

2. Digital media allows a single authored work to consume the attention of an unbounded number of people with near zero marginal cost. Further, once a work has been authored, it is available to be consumed forever.

3. Computers, software, the web, and now AI have drastically lowered the cost to produce a work of digital media.

You can't have fixed demand and have the supply increase 10x every year without something going off the rails eventually.

Now, granted, a unit of digital media is not a commodity good. People have preferences and not all works are created equal. But people are also demonstrably not that discriminating at what they spend their attention on now matter how unsatisfying the experience was, once it's spent it's gone.

Our economic systems around making and consuming media were not set up to handle this level of imbalance between creator and audience and something will have to change if we want to still have a functioning world where people make good art and others are enriched by it.

lackoftactics•about 14 hours ago
This seems to extend even beyond the arts. I would say that the race to add more features to web and mobile apps will face a similar obstacle.

How long can we continue making 10x more features just because we can, until somebody realizes that users do not have the attention to spend on them? There might be a shift, but currently, we are too focused on pleasing shareholders.

ryandvm•about 13 hours ago
Damn, enshittification was already one of the toughest unsolved problems that successful software platforms face. It had not yet occurred to me that AI was going to increase the pace.
fzeroracer•about 13 hours ago
I think as a developer this is one of the biggest takeaways I've had from this whole thing. I used to view features sitting endlessly in a JIRA backlog as a bad sign; a signal that we weren't prioritizing the right thing. But in reality this serves as a natural selection mechanic; if devs don't care enough about it to get it done and PM doesn't see the value in it then it slowly fades away.

With agents you can just throw them at every JIRA ticket and get them (badly) implemented. There's no rhyme or reason if it's needed or even wanted, and spending time to think about it is 'wasted'. So the numbers on the burn down chart go up, but actual productivity is stagnant or becomes negative as unnecessary bloat sneaks into your app or game.

threetonesun•about 11 hours ago
I'm a big fan of forgetting. I throw out the phrase "forgetting is the point" a lot, loosely paraphrased from some musician (I forget who!) that said if you couldn't remember the lyrics they must not have been very good. Somewhere in the original spirit of Agile there was no Jira board, because the next thing to do was obvious to the team, and if it wasn't obvious it was easily discoverable, just go ask some users what they need. The idea of writing down every idea and letting AI crap out the features is entirely antithetical to creating good software.
s_dev•about 13 hours ago
Let it collapse get rid of patents and copyright. They are holding us back.

People will assume that means that you can copy and distribute for free and profit without work. You already can.

The business model will have to shift to collecting money BEFORE making something rather than trying to collect it AFTER making. You want a new Christoper Nolan film on his new idea, invest in it. That investment is a risk. Once made the money is made people can copy and distribute however they like. In a cinema, on a DVD, on a streaming site etc.

You've pointed it out yourself, we have these old notions of economics that we apply to a new world where it simply doesn't make sense.

hatthew•about 12 hours ago
Investments need a return on investment. If "the thing you wanted to exist now does" is the only return, that's not enough to support anywhere near the current amount of digital product creation happening today.
wewtyflakes•about 12 hours ago
Sounds fine to me! Less inane, pointless, content? Only left with what people chose to exist? Sign me up!
philipov•about 13 hours ago
And this is precisely the business model that platforms like Patreon and Kickstarter facilitate.
smcg•about 13 hours ago
If you want to get rid of patents and copyright then entire industries would have to roll over and die (the music industry, publishing, Disney, etc).

Also, people only invest in things if there is an expectation of profit. Your model for raising capital does not make sense.

markerz•about 12 hours ago
Property rights are not the only way to create profit. That's a very capitalistic mindset. Plenty of societies have functioned adequately without our current form of property rights, either physical or intellectual. Before AI, it was the internet that really challenged intellectual property rights. When information flows freely, what happens? Example: many musicians make their pay by performing live, not from royalties on the properties they sold to producing companies.

Intellectual property rights rewards the first-comers, not the innovators. For example, you give a drug researcher a patent on their discovery, that discourages innovation on making that new drug cheap and readily available. The same can be said about AI models: the heavy investments by OpenAI and Anthropic to make these frontier models forces them to charge pretty expensive prices, but if we only had them, we would not have much innovation in making fast tiny models that are more cost and energy efficient. That drive comes from China because they are resource constrained and price-conscious.

fzeroracer•about 13 hours ago
In a world without patents and copyright, there's nothing stopping companies from just hiring the Pinkertons or something to threaten you into compliance. These sort of 'if we just get rid of patents things will be great' ideals will just benefit large corporations with the capital to get their way anyways.

This doesn't mean our current system of patents and copyrights doesn't favor them either especially as they shred it to train their AI models but it's not a system you can fix by simply tearing it all down.

izacus•about 12 hours ago
That's just absolute nonsense, where do you get these kind of ideas?

Just because you don't have monopoly on your stupid ideas, you don't get to hire Pinkerton's to beat others.

watwut•about 13 hours ago
The article starts by video companies being as profitable as ever. Issue is not with economics not being there.
QuadrupleA•about 13 hours ago
Love this quote, seems to apply to all software these days and maybe business generally: "They're trying to have a CEO press a button that makes a game, and then everyone else somehow buys it without a job."
madrox•about 7 hours ago
If you take away the cynical edge, though, if this actually happens we're talking about an age of mom-and-pop businesses in industries that have not traditionally had them. It can't/won't be all software, but mom and pop stores were only about serving their neighborhood to begin with.
sleight42•about 3 hours ago
LOL no it won't because mom and pop won't be able to afford to run a business and no one would be able to afford to buy from them either.
newtonianrules•about 14 hours ago
Does it seem like companies just aren’t that well run anymore? I mean, companies seem to be having massive layoffs and placing ever more work on the remaining employees. At what point will the remaining employees just collapse?

Are we just reverting to the mean after years of zero interest rate policy? Would love for folks with experience working in tech in the 90s and 00s especially to chime in.

altairprime•about 14 hours ago
Previously on “companies just aren’t run that well anymore”, HN considered this analysis of Boeing’s collapse following a reverse-takeover by an acquired, collapsing, competitor that ended up kicking out the quality-focused management in favor of profits: (6 years ago, 281 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21971040

I assume a similar analysis exists somewhere for the big names in gaming that financial engineers have similarly destroyed other formerly-great companies; ZA/UM comes to mind as one example.

reactordev•about 13 hours ago
Ubisoft, Bungie, id software…

Blizzard

altairprime•about 13 hours ago
Bungie, in its post-Halo standalone incarnation, was running a microtransactions empire from day one and funded itself on the debt owed by those; it was not ‘taken over’ by financial engineers, so to speak, because the call was coming from inside the house from day one. They executed on some very nice tricks to get funded but their business was operated consistently (impeccable scenic and gunplay, variable-quality story and voicing, catastrophically-bad management) throughout.

The others are all well-known acquisitions or acquirers, but I’m not seeing a clear link to my point. Certainly they’re stellar examples of ‘greed minmaxers’ but not so much of ‘profitable incompetence through financial engineer takeover’ like happened to, say, Toys R Us or Wizards of the Coast. Perhaps you could explain in more detail?

louthy•about 14 hours ago
> Does it seem like companies just aren’t that well run anymore?

If you mean the games industry, it was always poorly run. I worked in games in the 90s and 00s it was a cottage industry of nerds, many of whom had success with an 8bit game in the 80s (where they did everything: a one person team), to then have to run large teams of devs/artists/designers/etc without any leadership experience and more complex hardware.

Happy days :D

not_the_fda•about 13 hours ago
Companies haven't been well run in decades, if ever, especially American ones. I've worked for about a dozen companies in my 30+ year career. None have been well run, most are out of business. I do design services now, and have worked with dozens of companies through that, and the pattern continues.

We don't have leaders, or people that can make hard decisions, or think for themselves. They all follow the same book of the day business trends. If you do think outside the box you aren't a team player and are rocking the boat.

badpun•about 13 hours ago
Most follow the herd, but there are often noticeable exceptions. See e.g. how Toyota refused to jump on the electric vehicle bandwagon and stuck to hybrid engines. Or Mazda, which didn't even do hybrid.
LgWoodenBadger•about 12 hours ago
Toyota is (was?), all by their lonesome selves, almost 100% bet-the-farm on hydrogen vehicles instead of electric.
dalyons•about 10 hours ago
Is that supposed to be an example of a good decision? Outside the US hybrids are quickly becoming irrelevant. The decision is looking like it will cost Toyota the crown
wil421•about 12 hours ago
Toyota made un-Toyota like mistakes on the new v6 twin turbo. They are not immune anymore.
Gud•about 13 hours ago
Uhm, seems to me the companies that are spearheading the rollout of electric vehicles will be still existing in the future.

BYD will dominate, not GM.

noduerme•about 13 hours ago
I was working at a web shop in San Francisco when the Web 1.0 bubble burst. The period leading up to that was characterized by company execs buying themselves all kinds of expensive new cars and toys, and a kind of hysteria on the part of clients that their brick and mortar businesses were being left behind if they didn't spend gobs of money on websites that had all kinds of gizmos and information but were, essentially, just brochures with a contact form. The FOMO of "AI", whatever that means to individual decisionmakers, feels similar to that time. As does the grift. Every plumbing company and real estate agency back then wanted to say their business was online. Not being online was being left behind. Now they all want to say they're AI powered. Well, business owners and managers need to sound like they know what they're talking about, and brag about whatever they think they've gotten for their spending, especially when they don't have a clue whether it pencils out or not. That's why they were happier back then with a website they could say they paid $30k for than if they'd somehow gotten it done for a tenth of that.
wil421•about 12 hours ago
A former professor went through startups to acquisition with 7 or so startups during this era. He said one VC kept funding them. The VC visited their new office and said this is why we love you guys everyone else we are funding drive brand new Mercedes.
pavel_lishin•about 14 hours ago
Were they ever well run?
BiscuitBadger•about 13 hours ago
Look at Strange Scaffold for a game dev company built around being a sustainable business where there aren’t any single ambitious “Bet the business” releases.
vkou•about 12 hours ago
> Does it seem like companies just aren’t that well run anymore?

They've never been well-ran, but the laws of physics and economics put hard limits on the amount of stupid bullshit that they could produce.

Now that those limits have been largely removed, an exec at the head of a company in the post-AI age is a chimp with a machinegun.

Anything they ask for can and will be built.

cyberax•about 13 hours ago
It seems like Google, Microsoft, and Apple have all switched into "extract max profit" mode. They don't care about quality or even features anymore.

And it comes from the top: the CEOs are not caring anymore, so their lieutenants are not interested in doing any work either. So the companies get turned into fiefdoms without any central guiding direction.

martythemaniak•about 14 hours ago
I'll give you my diagnosis, which is derived from this: https://www.semafor.com/article/04/27/2025/the-group-chats-t...

The thing to realize about the SV executive class is that they have constructed a closed ecosystem around them where they only talk amongst themselves and a small number of supporting actors who say what the execs need to hear. A CEO will talk to other CEOs he will not talk to his skip reports. Alternative viewpoints or dissent are not part of this social circle, and despite their 'conterarian' self-image, there's an immense amount of social pressure to conform.

You can can see hints of this outside - for example this site used to see YC folks as regular commenters, but no more. Twitter was changed so that only views favoured by Musk show up prominently in replies. These people certainly do not encounter normal people in their day-to-day lives.

In this information environment you see extremely rapid horizontal spread of weird, stupid and esoteric ideas - one CEO does a layoff, all of them will do layoffs. One turns MAGA, they all turn MAGA, etc. One guy starts yapping about some snake oil, they all yap about snake oil. There no negative feedback loop there.

astrange•about 13 hours ago
> Twitter was changed so that only views favoured by Musk show up prominently in replies.

This doesn't happen anymore, it's actually relatively good at sorting bad comments to the bottom now. The current problem is it's full of wannabe LinkedIn influencers with "Building for AI agents in business in public" in their profile using LLMs to reply to everything.

mschuster91•about 14 hours ago
> In this information environment you see extremely rapid horizontal spread of weird, stupid and esoteric ideas - one CEO does a layoff, all of them will do layoffs. One turns MAGA, they all turn MAGA

As for the layoffs, that one was to be expected, a correction after the insane hiring sprees during the ZIRP phase.

As for MAGA... well, Trump made it clear. Either you walk the line with him, or you get screwed.

martythemaniak•about 13 hours ago
Well, we don't see a slight trimming of workforces, we see 20-80% layoffs in most cases with good financial performance. You see breathless claims of AI doing all the work one year, tokenmaxxing, then less than a year later everybody says don't spend so much on AI, progress wasn't as far as we expected. You see this in what people say about AI as well - one year everybody will be jobless in 5 years, next year "actually jobs are gonna be ok".

My point is that its hard to ignore just how in-tune and well-coordinated all these people are, and I don't think it's a coincidence. If CEOs were responding to actual political, economic and company developments, you'd see far more diversity of opinion. Some you see their companies are growing and profitable and wouldn't jump on the layoff bandwagon. Others may ask "Don't we need rule of law? What happens when the other party gets in power?" and fight the administration in courts etc.

dfxm12•about 14 hours ago
I don't go back quite to the 90s, but this has been true across my entire experience working in a few big multinationals (including one in tech).

Companies will do what Wall Street wants (Wall Street likes layoffs), and at a certain level, they don't want unemployment to get too low, lest their workers gain too much leverage.

jmyeet•about 12 hours ago
Companies under a capitalist mode of production are funddamentally incompatible with creative output because companies want a reproducible formula that they can scale. This is why we get endless sequels, annual FIFA, CoD, etc releases, adaptations of successful IP and so on. Creative output, be it music, movies, TV, games or books, doesn't scale.

There is an insatiable appetite for increasing profits. Eventually that means raising prices and/or cutting costs and the most significant cost is labor.

Game studios can only sruvive and keep excelling as long as they can maintain their culture and key talent and avoid getting finance people and accountants in charge. This is one reason why acquisitions usually mark the beginning of the end.

We're coming up on the much-ancitipcated release of GTA6. People might say that Rockstar has thus far avoided this rot but I kinda disagree. What made GTA magic for me was the social commentary and satire. I personally thought GTA5 lost its soul. Every previous GTA game I'd replay just to have fun, even if it's to do dumb stuff like causing mass pileups and explosions on the freeway in GTA:SA. I can honestly say that I never once played GTA5 again after finishing the main story and I also almost quit before I did. I have zero interest in the online crap but it's a huge cash cow for Rockstar.

So I imagine GTA6 is going to be visually stunning and I'm sure many will enjoy the new era of online gameply but I am fearful it will be even more soulless.

So, back to your point, I think the real problem is that the game devs need to own the studio. That's the only sustainable model. One could even call that the workers owning the means of production.

hluska•about 13 hours ago
In the 1990s, the adage in game development was that you knew you were a game developer when you had sat at the same desk, had seven different positions with three different companies over 30 months, brought in all your own equipment and still hadn’t gotten paid.

So, the game development industry really hasn’t changed that much. But the way we talk about things certainly has changed.

Generation X had a lot of bad things written about us, but we could write and we could think. We were also significantly tougher than the modern generation.

Things weren’t easy and running companies had always been hard. We didn’t think in terms of ‘employees just collapse’ because we were tough enough that that would have been silly. A few may collapse and that sucked for them, but for the most part we did our shit and lived our lives. We didn’t expect lives of leisure or for companies to speak to our personal missions. We had jobs and we had lives.

There were massive layoffs back in the day too. They sucked. But employees didn’t collapse, the world kept spinning and honestly, having been through those years it’s very very hard to relate to the young now. Younger generations do not have a monopoly on struggling or on shitty bosses, but you sure talk about them too much.

neutronicus•about 13 hours ago
I think they just want, broadly, to divest from the American tech work force, whether that's via AI or outsourcing. If "the remaining employees just collapse" it's a data point in support of the thesis that developing software in HCOL markets is unsustainable, and if they don't, margins are better!

So I think decision-makers are seeing layoffs as win/win.

madrox•about 11 hours ago
When we've used software to disrupt other industries to deliver more with fewer people we called that a good thing. And it is, because consumers tend to win. Games are a hit-driven business, so they're going to feel the squeeze faster than, say, SaaS, but it's coming for all of us. Software is now being disrupted. Reap the whirlwind.

I worked at a (very) well known media company in Hollywood during the Netflix disruption. This really doesn't sound all that different from a Hollywood exec mocking internet media in the early 2000s. People are trying to understand it and leverage it. Quality is bad. Then one day you wake up and it's taken over, because it kept improving. Setting aside the debate on AI use in the creative process, even if models never get better there are years of optimizations to be done on the tools/business side.

As a gamer, I'm actually excited for it. I want more diversity in games beyond what the current indie scene provides. If we can give smaller teams the horsepower to make what was considered AAA 5-10 years ago I will be quite happy as a consumer.

invalidptr•about 10 hours ago
Netflix disruption might be an apt metaphor, since it did severely damage the industry and reduce the quality of its output. Those Hollywood execs were right, even if they were ultimately doomed. It's another step in the Sheinification of everything. If it happens to software too, it won't be a victory for anyone except the owners of software companies.
madrox•about 7 hours ago
I think people who long for pre-Netflix era are looking at the past with rose colored glasses. Distribution was terrible compared to now without a lot of choice. Anyone who thinks that time was better and the quality was higher don't actually remember it. They just remember the best of the era and TV shows they liked when they were younger.
tstrimple•about 5 hours ago
Distribution got better for a time and then became the same old bullshit. When Netflix was the only dominant streaming service it was great. Now ever other person has their own custom streaming service and content is distributed across them. Back to the high seas for me. I don't mind paying. I mind the inconvenience. There was a brief window when Netflix was improving TV quality. But now it's almost all non-native US made originals that are cheap as fuck. They aren't all bad. My wife has a weakness for Spanish and Korean dramas for some reason. But it's all noise to me.
vablings•about 9 hours ago
I honestly couldn't disagree more. With the advent of online services, the quality of both tv series and movies have massively increased. Budgets are larger the appetite is larger and grass roots non-Hollywood creators have a serious shot at disrupting the market.

I am personally no longer interested in the same shitty nostalgia rehash of previously garbage marvelslop and the same 15-20 actors on my screen and that has started to change because I have way more choice.

unknownfuture•about 9 hours ago
Sure. Who doesn't love 10 episode seasons every three years that are regularly and unceremoniously cancelled whenever the algorithm says so. I know folks in the industry absolutely love the total lack of job security...
tstrimple•about 5 hours ago
I think that was absolutely true for a time. But now outside of Apple TV who is doing high budget quality TV? Certainly not Netflix. Best they can offer is a Korean or Spanish soap opera.
unknownfuture•about 9 hours ago
Who's we? You're certainly not speaking for me.

Making things previously impossible possible? That's the business I joined.

Destroying people's livelihoods without care for the consequences while pursuing monopolies, capturing the value as rent seekers, and ultimately enshittifying entire industries?

Yeah, no, I know I didn't sign up for that, thanks.

And if you're thinking "wait that's not AI". Yes. That's precisely what these companies are trying to do.

madrox•about 7 hours ago
That's honorable, but software has been used in no small way to disrupt traditional business. Uber. Doordash. Netflix. Tesla. Airbnb. Zillow. And yes, AI is coming for another round.

It's a part of the culture. You can say that isn't what you signed up for, but I find it hard to believe that you don't know it's part of the culture you're participating in, which is the "we" here.

unknownfuture•about 7 hours ago
Maybe first define "participating" and then perhaps I'll respond.

Because if this a case of "well you use a computer so you're part of the system, man" then I probably won't waste my time. Cynical fatalism usually involves moving goalposts IME.

archagon•about 9 hours ago
It's a huge mistake to think that indie teams would make better games if only they could balloon their projects to AAA-size.

Some of the most meaningful and engrossing gaming experiences of my life have come from 1-3 person teams, especially over the past few years. Meanwhile, the vast majority of AAA titles just feel like time-filling entertainment chow to me: fun-shaped but ultimately pointless. I would strongly argue that artistry and auterism is nearly impossible to preserve beyond a certain game size; the experience can't be focused by definition.

In any case, many of the most talented indie game devs are rejecting this technology outright.

tayo42•about 6 hours ago
Which games we're those?
archagon•17 minutes ago
Recently Silksong, Celeste, Rhythm Doctor, Star of Providence, Spelunky 2, then classics like Fez, Cave Story, La Mulana, and many more...
daemin•about 12 hours ago
The one that sticks out to me is the last quote lamenting the fact that you can't talk about AI in games any more since the term AI has been hijacked to mean LLM instead. I wonder how long it will take for job ads in the game industry to bifurcate into AI (LLM) developer and Behaviour (game AI) developer.
wccrawford•about 10 hours ago
I'm old enough to remember when AI meant a certain things, and games hijacked that to mean "some routines that make NPCs do things" and it's just gone from there. Gamers at the time were vocal about the "AI" not actually being AI, but they lost that battle.

The current use of AI for LLMs is a lot closer to the original intent that the "AI" in games ever was. It wasn't hijacked. It was retaken.

asdff•about 11 hours ago
They already bifurcate in most any tech related job posting. You have the "AI/LLM" jobs that are full on llm koolaid and pretty vague about what your role in the job even entails, and then there's the "AI/ML" jobs that are just how they are calling the same old ML jobs these days. The title could be the same between the two, but its usually obvious from the post description what the job actually is.
ThrowawayTestr•about 12 hours ago
Unrelated but are there any games using LLMs or ML for the NPCs? I really want enemies that adapt to the player.
joegibbs•about 6 hours ago
I did it for story events in my grand strategy game (Fall of an Empire) with a set of finetuned local models. It doesn't affect performance (for most people) since the game is bottlenecked on other things. Players seem to like it, there are some issues since the models are so small they are more prone to hallucination, and you also have to give them preset topics or they go on the same track again and again.

I haven't been able to use it for more than events since the tokens per second aren't high enough - I would like to use the models to e.g. generate actions for characters based on their history of interactions with other characters, but that ends up taking so much time that the player never gets any events.

I also did a demo of an LLM-powered NPC, I think the issue here is that you need more than just the LLM in e.g. a 3D RPG where you can actually go up and talk to the character. You can generate the text, but from there you also need to generate speech, from that you need to dynamically generate realistic facial and body animations that match up with it - this means you need 3 or 4 models chained together in a pipeline.

polytely•about 11 hours ago
I think there is a skyrim mod that lets hook up an LLM to the NPCs so you can talk to them, the problem is that the rest of the game design doesn't really support that. So the novelty wears off quite quick.

There is probably some limited utility for using ML in games, lifelike multiplayer bots trained on behaviour of different types of players.

I think in most scenarios good gameplay comes from iteration which comes from tweak-ability, you see players get stuck in area x so you do a minor or major adjustment to area layout, enemy composition, or give the players more tools. If something is controlled by an LLM it becomes unpredictable and hard to reason about for both player and designer, and consequently also hard to adjust.

I think it is possible there is some role for LLM's in games, like how Left 4 Dead had an AI (this is classic AI not ML) director who would decide how to structure enemy waves and for example send a boss after a player who strays too far from the rest. But even there rules based AI is probably easier to adjust for the designer.

daemin•about 11 hours ago
I don't know of any that use LLMs and my educated opinion would be that there won't be any in the next decade or ever. The main reasons are that games already run with tight margins of both frame time and memory consumption, and that designers/game developers want to control the interactions with the player and what the player experiences in the game. So an LLM won't be used for any story relevant NPCs in the game as what they say is tightly curated, and it's never going to be good/fast/slim enough to get used for crowd NPCs.

Using machine learning to make enemies smarter has been thought about and talked about for decades, but I don't see it being used either for similar reasons. Training a ML algorithm takes resources which are in short supply and time which could take longer than for the player to finish the game (if you want smarter enemies play against real human players). There's also the fact that the game has to run on the minimum specification computer, which means different players will have differently skilled enemies and their experience of the game will suffer.

There have been some games in the past which used some form of machine learning as a core gameplay feature, but they have been pet breeding simulators.

drugstorecowboy•about 11 hours ago
In my completely unqualified and baseless opinion, I think the reason machine learning in games isn't more popular, is that ruthlessly difficult enemies that learn and adapt to the player just aren't.. fun. Level playing fields between characters and enemies just don't work. For example, the Dark Souls series is generally known for being "difficult but fair", however enemies are not smart by any means, they ultimately have a very limited number of attacks and very basic AI that consists of "Wait until player is in range, Run in a straight line toward the player until in attack range, attack". Even with that simplistic AI its pretty difficult and enjoyable.The player is meant to triumph over hundreds of enemies, its the player that learns and adapts to a static set of obstacles. If enemies in Dark Souls learned and adapted to the player, it would go from difficult to impossible very quickly and would not be enjoyable.

The purpose of AI in games isn't making something thats impossible to beat, its making something that is ALWAYS possible to beat while remaining fun and engaging.

addandsubtract•about 11 hours ago
I've only seen proof-of-concepts, like Vaudeville[1]. I think more work is currently done in the modding scene, for example with Mantella[2] which, "brings every NPC in Skyrim and Fallout 4 to life with AI."

[1] https://store.steampowered.com/app/2240920/Vaudeville/ [2] https://art-from-the-machine.github.io/Mantella/

nitwit005•about 10 hours ago
Excepting strategy games, the industry's experience has been that most players won't notice clever AI.

There have been a number of games that have tried AI conversations, but you're basically trying to sell a Chat GPT prompt, and many players are aware they don't have to pay you to get a similar result on their own.

AshamedCaptain•about 11 hours ago
Right until you release it and a minor gets the NPC to talk about rape or something.
hackable_sand•about 6 hours ago
Related, but we've had multiplayer for decades now.
square_usual•about 13 hours ago
In the first paragraph:

> While videogames are as profitable as ever on paper

And the linked article is about revenue going up YoY, not profit. And then it says:

> It's remarkably dissonant with, say, the current 'Xbox reset' which has Microsoft cancelling games and looking to ax studios left and right

Xbox in their own earnings report said their revenues dropped by 7% YoY.

Yeah OK, I guess games journalist are as bad as they've ever been.

prophesi•about 13 hours ago
Are there sources for this? I'm seeing an 11% increase in revenue from their 2025 Q4 report[0], and still a 1% increase in their 2026 Q1 report[1], the off-season for the videogame industry. Hardware revenue's falling, but it's propped up with their Game Pass and game sales.

[0] https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/investor/earnings/FY-2026-Q1...

[1] https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/Investor/earnings/fy-2025-Q4...

edit: Tarn Adams is also an indie game developer, not a game journalist. Dwarf Fortress is highly influential in the indie game scene.

teamonkey•about 12 hours ago
Revenues overall are rising, but the only real growth right now is in China + East Asia, and in Roblox.

https://www.matthewball.co/all/presentation-the-state-of-vid...

xboxnolifes•about 11 hours ago
The video game revenue growth is mostly mobile game and gacha game mtx, primarily in the Asian markets.
chias•about 12 hours ago
The number of dickovers[1] this website pops up while you're trying to read the article is truly astounding. I gave it my best shot, but after the third one i figured I'd probably gotten enough of the gist of it and gave up.

[1] https://daringfireball.net/2026/05/what_is_a_dickover

profstasiak•about 14 hours ago
We need Dwarf Fortress creator to lead Butlerian Jihad
tedd4u•about 13 hours ago
Instead, we got Universal Paperclips ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
bob1029•about 11 hours ago
Game dev is the last thing I think will be genuinely disrupted by AI. It can do everything at the edges with superhuman ability, but the core magic happens in the scene where all the disparate systems come together to provide the final experience. Working in arbitrary world space is pretty much the hardest thing I can imagine asking an LLM to do. I also think things like animation, sfx and mastering will never be disrupted meaningfully at the AAA level.
Ancapistani•about 12 hours ago
I’m in the front of the line for the Tarn Adams fan club, but I don’t think he’d be my first pick for advice on the state of software engineering. DF is exceptional in many ways, not all of them uniformly positive.
pandaman•about 4 hours ago
The article makes note about profits as high as ever, which is true for the revenues. Revenue of the industry used to grow every year until 2020, when it stalled and had been the same for the past 5 years. While revenue remains the same, the cost raises - people want more money due to inflation, benefits cost more, capital costs more etc. etc. So no, profits are not as high as ever, they had been falling steadily over the past 6 years and as the result we see all the layoffs and studio closures.

Is AI the reason? I somehow doubt that AI caused the revenue to stall in 2021. In 2021 AI could not even draw hands, least write decent code. What we had around that period was a lot of M&A in the industry. Insane capital went into buying up game studios and even publishers like Zenimax and Activision. Embracer alone acquired ~200 studios in 2019-2022. If I wanted to know why the industry is fucked up now I'd be looking there, not at the AI.

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qw_qrtx•about 14 hours ago
I have never been a gamer, but I have gained huge respect for gamers, gamer magazines and game developers for pushing back against this AI curse.

Contrast this with "open" source where some Gen-Xers who are too tired to program need the AI wheelchair and simultaneously build power in their corporations for selling out everyone else.

I fell that also gamers are still able to articulate themselves rather than just spewing corporate talking points all day long.

ctoth•about 14 hours ago
You may wish to check if the screen name JackWeinberg is available.
slowhadoken•about 12 hours ago
It’s been in bad shape for the last 11 years.
insane_dreamer•about 7 hours ago
> now said CEOs can still see an end result that mimics the thing they don't understand—and are able to self-delude themselves into thinking it's replicable at scale, or that it's even producing the same quality as the product they've actually been selling.

this is happening across all industries

mock-possum•about 5 hours ago
But will people buy it?

(Spoiler: more than you’re comfortable with, yes they will)

shevy-java•about 12 hours ago
AI is very disruptive. I'd wish people would stop boosting Skynet.
bigstrat2003•about 12 hours ago
More accurately stated, people's reactions are disruptive. The tech itself sucks and doesn't do any of the things boosters claim it does.
tiahura•about 14 hours ago
The argument that it is in shambles wasn’t particularly persuasive. “videogames are as profitable as ever”

It seemed more like the understandable frustration of someone whose profession is being automated. Schumpeter creative destruction, but not shambles.

moshun•about 14 hours ago
Part of the problem is that some investor somewhere making profits is considered the only real marker for success. It’s an insane perspective that devalues all other (arguably more important) aspects of a work’s success.
tiahura•about 13 hours ago
How is that any different than the market for toilet paper or ovens?
ctoth•about 14 hours ago
It sounds like you're complaining about capitalism, not AI?
sm-silversight•about 14 hours ago
Shareholder capitalism as milton friedman argued for it. Ford had a different vision but the Dodge brothers stamped it out.
titzer•about 14 hours ago
Welcome to growthism.
dexwiz•about 14 hours ago
Profit in video games as an industry is largely the gambling industry hiding under the another umbrella. I'm not even talking about loot boxes. Just old school gambling games like roulette and slot machines but in a digital format. Once you strip that away and loot boxes, the numbers are great for classic games.
bhewes•about 14 hours ago
Worse then gambling at least I can take cash out. These are pure extraction machines. When I was part of a game studio startup all the VCs wanted the loot gambling games, some of the teams they funded hired casino guys.
spwa4•about 14 hours ago
Yes, then this part was regulated. And so if you allow cash out, you're regulated.

The result was not regulated gambling but extermination of cash out options (well, and sometimes very obvious illegal gambling houses).

megagpt4•about 13 hours ago
The profitable videogames are mobileslop appstorespam games loaded to the brim with microtransactions, as well as the really good games that everyone wants to play, which are impossible to create more of on a whim.
qw_qrtx•about 14 hours ago
"the industry" also includes "human resources", previously known as personnel or humans.

Any why always call critics "frustrated" in order to depict them as weak and spiteful? Isn't the Dwarf Fortress guy independent anyway?

makerofthings•about 14 hours ago
Which is exactly the problem. All the folks in charge care about is money. Money has absolutely nothing to do with whether a game is fun to play or not.

An eternal curse on the houses of anyone involved with these AIs.

wilg•about 12 hours ago
Money has to do with whether you can make the game. Games are regularly funded by many non-profit options such as co-ops or grants, etc. Developers are free to make games however they want.
andrewmutz•about 14 hours ago
Don’t you make more money if the game is fun to play? (People buy the game)
makerofthings•about 14 hours ago
A huge marketing budget can push a mediocre game far further than a really good indie game that doesn't get lucky with youtube.
jasonlotito•about 14 hours ago
No.

100% not. To equate fun to play to people buying the game is 100% not how you should say making more money is more people buying the game. Money is money. If the game is mediocre but it is fun enough, it can get more money than a game that is more fun but doesn't have as many opportunities to spend.

This is why things like dark patterns exist that try to get you to spend money through FOMO and other mechanisms like loot boxes.

You can argue that all of these things are people having "fun," but I wouldn't define that as fun to play.

Finally, none of these necessitate people buying the game, but rather spending money in the game. Usually, it's free games where people buy a secondary currency to spend on virtual items. Mobile apps, for example, are huge with this.

So the real answer to your question on multiple grounds is no.

Edit: Now, I will give you that people do have to make a choice, but that's like saying that gambling addiction is not real and it's a choice, or drug addiction is real and it's a choice. The reason for alcoholism and Alcoholics Anonymous is bogus because it's just a choice, but it would be dangerous to classify it as just a choice.

mcphage•about 14 hours ago
Video games are profitable as ever, but they take years to produce, and the mass layoffs makes me wonder who’s going to be making the games coming out in 2-5 years. Also it has required a lot of write-offs from closing studios to maintain this profitability, and that’s not a trick you can keep up for long.
fzeroracer•about 13 hours ago
Profitability can only matter as long as the ecosystem is sustainable; otherwise once the floor collapses there's no more money to be made. A game can be profitable, but when the entire team that made it is laid off or furloughed before launch there isn't a team anymore to follow up. Eventually those people leave the industry and there isn't enough capital made by your average worker to fund their own gaming studio, relying on investors or the rich to parasitize their work in order to create more games.

This is part of the reason why we see endless games as a service despite 90% of them failing. Teams have to do the bidding of the rich, but the rich don't know what's 'fun'.

hax0ron3•about 14 hours ago
>They're trying to have a CEO press a button that makes a game, and then everyone else somehow buys it without a job.

If AIs get just a few times better than they are now, the CEO probably actually will be able to press a button that makes a good quality game. The problem for the CEO is that every other CEO will be able to do the same thing, so what will be the distinguishing factor?

The buying without a job part isn't necessarily a devastating problem for now. Blue collar workers and service industry workers aren't in immediate danger of being replaced by AI, so there is a cushion period in which there is still a large number of people who have jobs.

>Since the advent of modern capitalism (and likely a long while before that), those in charge have often misunderstood, underestimated, or dismissed the hard work that goes into labour they don't understand.

I'm no big capitalism fan, but this sentence is funny. The author just had to put in a dig against capitalism, mildly qualified with the "and likely a long while before that". What do you mean "likely"? Lol. It's absolutely obvious that this has been true for a long while before modern capitalism.

voidfunc•about 14 hours ago
A sizable portion of the blue collar economy collapses too if the white collar portion stops having money to spend or suddenly has an influx of time to do some of the stuff the blue collar workers were doing for them like lawns, home repair, painting etc.

Its all tied together. The current system cannot function if unemployment goes double digits.

dibujaron•about 14 hours ago
"Blue collar workers and service industry workers aren't in immediate danger of being replaced by AI"

I wouldn't be so sure about this; robotics is advancing rapidly. I do think there'll be a substantial market for "human-made" products and services as luxuries, though, so at least some humans will retain these jobs.

bryanlarsen•about 12 hours ago
Blue collar workers such as plumbers are in danger of being replaced by robots, but not any time soon. But by the time this happens, enough people from more vulnerable fields will have been forced out that a "solution" will have been found. The "solution" is much more likely to be dystopic than utopic though.
ThrowawayR2•about 13 hours ago
I'll believe that when I can get a robot plumber or electrician to come to my house for less than what a senior SWE makes per hour. Until then, it's just an empty promise.
pkaye•about 13 hours ago
> Blue collar workers and service industry workers aren't in immediate danger of being replaced by AI, so there is a cushion period in which there is still a large number of people who have jobs.

There will just be a lot more workers competing for those blue collar and service industry jobs in the future which will drive down their wages.

bena•about 14 hours ago
The issue isn’t every other CEO having access to the “make game” button, but who will buy that game when the customers have access to their own “make game” button?
SirMaster•about 12 hours ago
Well, people often play games not because they are the best game, but because their friends are playing it and they want to join in the experience. This seems to have more to do with marketing than game or code quality, and marketing is not exactly cheap.
hax0ron3•about 14 hours ago
Good point. Except, the problem is that at AI prices similar to current ones, it would cost someone thousands of dollars to make the game for himself.
JaumeGreen•about 12 hours ago
Luckily for us China based companies are pushing the price down and bringing it to those who can afford a decent hardware. Which might not be everyone, but enough people to make it matter.

The day AI goes good enough to work in place of a principal engineer, and 10.000 people get fired, is the day when 10.000 new 1-person companies will appear that will make you whatever software you want at a fraction of the cost the big companies want to rent it to you.

Software is becoming a true commodity. Data, Hardware, specialised knowledge, good taste and engineering practices, and connectivity. Those might be key points that might keep people on a certain infrastructure, not just the software.

MattDamonSpace•about 13 hours ago
Not to mention “labor they don’t understand” is only possible with specialization and modernity.

Back when everyone was a farmer, yeah sure everyone understood the job

hax0ron3•about 13 hours ago
I think that even back in early farming days, there were usually some guys who were good at using spears and didn't know much about farming who would go around taking part of the farmers' output. If the farmers were relatively lucky, the guys with the spears would stick around and defend the farmers from other guys with spears in a long-term arrangement of trading protection for material goods instead of just roaming around robbing farmers without giving anything back.
georgeecollins•about 13 hours ago
It's possible to be very talented and a crank.
tptacek•about 12 hours ago
I say this with all possible respect, reverence even, for what Tarn Adams has accomplished and what continues to work on, but there may be no worse messenger for the problem of disintermediating game designers and creators from actual code authorship than the author of Dwarf Fortress. It's an amazing game that succeeds in spite of and not because of its code. Had Adams been able to use Opus or Sol when he started with DF, that game would be a broad cultural milestone today, and not just a nerd affectation.
stryan•about 12 hours ago
I don't think there's a way to really say a comment like this "with all possible respect" given the (albeit meager) content of the article.

Either way, I'd be much more willing to bet that if Toady had Opus/Sol/whatever we wouldn't have Dwarf Fortress, we'd just have Rimworld: perhaps a technically better game, but not !FUN! in the same way Dwarf Fortress is fun.

krapp•about 8 hours ago
There is no universe in which Dwarf Fortress becomes a "cultural milestone." It's core concept and gameplay would never appeal to the mainstream.

The premise that the only thing holding it back is not using an AI seems far fetched. How much game code have you looked at? If it shipped, chances are it's a goddamn mess. People made memes about Undertale's thousand-line switch statement. But it isn't the code quality that makes a game (unless it breaks, if it works literally no one cares) but the design and intent behind it. Using an AI wouldn't result in anything as unique or as innovative as Dwarf Fortress. It would just get something forgettable and mediocre to market faster.

shevy-java•about 12 hours ago
This seems to be miss the topic. Isn't the topic about AI and how damaging it can be? I am not sure why you want to discredit the messenger; the message appears to be correct. That should be a better focus.

> Had Adams been able to use Opus or Sol when he started with DF, that game would be a broad cultural milestone today, and not just a nerd affectation.

Well, that is an assumption. You have to demonstrate this claim. Right now I do not believe that claim.

Supermancho•about 12 hours ago
> the message appears to be correct.

"in shambles because of AI" no. It's the same as it always was.