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Occasionally I need to tote along a tablet because several places (some MLB venues, for one thing) will either require a smartphone, or impose a severe surcharge for the convenience of not using it.
Anyway, I really regret that we didn't impose dumbphone protection laws back when we had a large enough bloc of seniors that didn't "upgrade" to a smartphone yet
The problem is the tracking and invasion of privacy, and that all traces back to ads.
Ads are at the root of all the problems with the modern internet and mobile tech.
Ads aren't the problem. It's really the tracking and invasion of privacy which are the problem. Ads are just the publicly acceptable justification companies will use for invading your privacy. People don't care about giving up their privacy if they think it's just for ads because nobody really cares about which ad they get served. Some people have even been tricked into thinking that personalized ads are for their benefit.
Companies use the data they collect on us for a whole lot more than just advertising though and companies don't want you thinking about that. Even if all advertising were outlawed they'd still be collecting just as much of your data. Information is power and the information they have on you can become power they have over you. Companies are perfectly happy to use that data to set the prices they charge you, to tailor the company policies they apply to you, to deny paying out insurance/healthcare claims, and to make hiring decisions.
They'll use it for everything and anything they can if they think it'll give them an advantage. They've been seen using it for things as trivial as deciding how long to leave you on hold when you call them. The many ways they use your personal data against you is only going to increase as AI makes it easier for them to process their horde of data points in real time.
All the tracking and invasion of privacy is what really needs to be regulated and pushed back against because that data is just going to used against you one way or another.
That is one of the reasons why I would love to see - reasonably priced - paid services, or even have governments offer them (as in: Source is open, hosting is being paid by the government). Given the role social media, the internet and so on plays today, it might make sense to treat this as a common good.
But that side track aside; I think that privacy respecting, ad free products can be offered for cheap, if their goal is only to finance themselves, development and gain a small margin. And true, network effects / buyin is real, but I also think that the market for ad-free digital spaces/services will continue to grow, as hopefully people become more and more aware of how precious and limited their attention really is.
I don’t get lost because I am familiar with my city.
I can access entertainment at home. Why do you need to distract yourself constantly?
Smartphones just aren’t necessary if you live life intentionally. (We should get rid of targeted ads though.)
I don't think the timeline ever really allowed for that. The time that smartphones started to be mandatory in any sense of that word feels to me to have been after every senior got one.
And even if implemented, I'm unsure how useful and enforced they'd be if every senior then jumped on the smartphone ship 5 years later.
But I also have an Android phone without any data plan attached, which I use only for recording GPS coordinates when I am taking pictures outdoors. I have mostly managed to avoid places that require scanning some code or installing some app.
- Restaurants: Menu is QR only. In one case, ordering food was QR only.
- Queueing up at my local Costco optical department requires scanning a QR code.
- Various other check-ins for various other government agencies and businesses.
- Urgent care check-in paperwork requiring QR code. No paper, and typing the loooong URL in manually is horrific.
You can actually still sideload app stores (F-Droid, Aurora, etc.) on the Kyocera Dura. I bought mine specifically so I could still put my company-mandated pager app on it. Turns out I was able to get a physical pager instead, so I never had to go the sideloading route.
i just gave up. grapheneos + olauncher give me a minimal and open source enough experience to make it somewhat tolerable, but it makes me sad that as a society we've come to expect that you are carrying a computer with you at all times to exist.
This is the exaggeration that makes these claims fall flat for me.
How are you getting to hundreds of smartphone interactions per day that require apps?
And daily I maybe use 4-6 apps at most.
Apps are a problem in more ways than just the nuisance of notifications and having an icon on your home screen.
As long as an app is installed it can run in the background whenever it feels like it collecting and sending data. If you have a physical product that requires an app to use, it may not bother you until you go to use it and it fails because a server shut down or it refuses to run because it silently updated at some point and has now decided that your phone is no longer supported and suddenly the product you paid for is useless.
If you are very careful about which apps you install/refuse to install you'll probably be fine, but most companies that push apps are doing it because they want your device to work for their benefit at your expense.
This is what happens when a large number of people claim they "don't seem to feel the pain" and comply with the data broker's wishes. We all get stuck in the data brokers web, or we have to break the law to park on a public street.
I'm suprised they were allowed to remove the coins from the meters, but they were. So people who don't have a premiere phone, because the apps don't work on your old crappy phone, or people who don't have a credit card to feed into the app on the phone, are SOL.
Sure, you have taken the time to curate your mobile experience and silence things but a majority of the people in the world don't do that as it takes more time and effort than they are willing or able to give (why silence things or uninstall apps when you can browse instagram or tiktok for 2 hours). These people are the most affected but don't often know how inundated they are.
It's ridiculous how often & where tech is required these days where it really shouldn't.
One example: recently I discovered that on the (main) train station in the province capital near me, going to the toilet requires a bank (ATM/debit) card. What?!? FYI: we're talking a city with ~100k inhabitants.
Decades ago, you could just use a toilet. Done.
But ofcourse it needs cleaning, and personnel costs money. So, they'd put up a bowl where people could drop a few coins.
That didn't last long lol. Next: some small mechanism attached to door handle. Insert coin, open door.
Of course, some acts of vandalism & theft later: do away with the cash. And because 'everybody' around here pays with card+PIN 'everywhere' anyway, let's stick that onto the access-to-toilet.
On the surface, this whole progression seems 'logical'. But it's not! You've replaced something that shouldn't require tech at all, or at most a simple mechanical thingie, with something that requires electricity, internet connection, an electronic payments system backend, and may have the ability to track who used what toilet, where, when & bank account involved.
Insane! Issues like 'how to pay for toilet use' play worldwide, and this is the best you could come up with?
By traditional, not Japanese or anything of the sort. I'm sure it's also not taking medical samples.
So what on earth could it do?! Report the flushes!?! Why? Are you going to magically decide not to crap as much?
Just baffling.
You don't understand why someone would complain about that?
Yes, in that I am of free enough will to choose not to use something or do my homework before making purchases. I'm also not saying that you shouldn't be able to walk around without a smartphone, but choices, like speech, aren't without consequence. If you want to pay for something at a location that only takes cash, but you won't carry cash because it's easily stolen or lost, that doesn't mean they have to accommodate you, it means you're not eating their food. Should they take card? Sure, and you should be able to walk around cashless, but the same choice you get to make, they do as well.
Ultimately I declined to use the app and hid my coat under a chair lol and I will not return to the venue.
So, for the analogy, let's say lots and lots of businesses and public utilities are cash only, and carrying the cash exploits you for Google's profit somehow. Or we could stick to the idea that carrying cash is a theft risk, but let's say the businesses are indirectly in cahoots with the pickpockets through a chain of corruption and that's why everybody requires you to carry cash and be vulnerable.
You can choose not to do it, and your choice is not without consequences that are morally wrong, and you'd be right to complain about that. Otherwise if "not without consequence" implies that you shouldn't complain, then you're offering a viewpoint of it being a dog-eat-dog world, and that's just the way it is, if you resist you'll suffer and you're a fool, so take the easy path and don't worry about the morality. Resignation.
>Maybe I just don't mind having an app on my phone because I know that I can set it to basically never bother me.
Maybe when the government decides you're a dissident, they can purchase the location information from all your convenient apps?
"Just log into our instagram account and. . .right, you don't have insta installed on your phone."
"Can you log into our scheduling app and. . . right, you don't have that installed on your phone either."
Some of the more painful things you have to deal with:
- Chromite and Iron Fox filtering out a ton of stuff so a lot of sites simply don't work
- Organic maps is slow and hard to use compared to Google and Apple maps.
- Fairmail that blocks a ton of images and other code - which is good, but had to get used to seeing everything blocked visually.
- Not having any banking apps on my phone. Every time my son needs a few bucks in his account, my wife has to do it if we're out.
- The open source weather apps are not very accurate. Usually within a few degrees, and the radar is hit or miss.
Kind of odd that we have to try so hard to ensure our own privacy. I'm up for a new phone this Fall so I'll most likely be moving to a newer Pixel and will get Lineage or Graphene installed on it.
This is the most tyrannical things about smart phones -- banking apps. I get it, the bank wants to ensure the platform is not a liability. But it forces most of us to use one of the only two "trusted" mobile providers on earth: Google or Apple, both of which are American (and I'm an American.) The only alternative is a browser which comes with its own set of problems.
I don't need to deposit checks often, but I'd rather not have to mail it in when I do.
GrapheneOS does not strip proprietary tracking code embedded directly inside third-party apps like Venmo. If you log into Venmo, the app collects your financial activity, device analytics, and interactions
Venmo requires a verified account tied to your real identity, phone number, and bank account, meaning the service already knows who you are regardless of your operating system.
Venmo can see your IP address and any location data you permit the app to access, or data derived from your connection
So the burden is on her?
If its time sensitive? Yes.
Like I said, its something that's annoying, but this is the cost of keeping my privacy. My wife uses Apple for all her stuff and she understands. By any account I wouldn't say this is a "burden" per se. She opens the app, hits a few buttons and hits sends. Hardly something that I would consider a burden.
From… what?
If you are in the US, check out wX: https://f-droid.org/packages/joshuatee.wx/
It's fairly technical and it is very configurable (so it can take some fussing to get it set up the way you like), but it pulls data directly from NWS and has been very accurate for my family.
I've had this exact problem this morning, I wanted to download the ASD-STE100 https://www.asd-ste100.org/STE_downloads.html#article02-2l and they use a request form to get the download.
Unfortunately the last question:
> Do you consent to us collecting your data? This form has the only purpose of requesting a copy of ASD-STE100. Details are for record and statistical purposes only and will not be used or disclosed in any form to anyone. You can find out more about STEMG privacy policy here.
Only has a "Yes" option, and so I couldn't submit the form.
Great success.
If there was a "No" response available, as the question suggests, it wouldn't be an issue. But it just annoyed me and felt like a dark practice.
It seems the checkbox had its intended effect of serving as a double-check gate about whether you really want them to know that information.
Any anyway, my biggest gripe was the phrasing, don't say it as if I have a choice.
So far, the only thing I've found that absolutely requires a Google account is Waymo. This is probably a violation of common carrier rules, since Waymo is legally a common carrier. That forces Google's terms of service, including the binding arbitration and no class action terms, on Waymo riders.
I've never been forced to use an app. I've got a credit union and would close my accounts there and switch to another if they ever forced me to use an app. I refuse to buy any product that requires an app to use.
I do still have a phone though. Family and friends insist on being able to send me texts with photos and videos. It's a compromise I can live with since I've refused to join any of the social media sites they use. Besides texting I do get some use out of it with Termux, VLC, and Newpipe and I might pull something up on wikipedia, but otherwise I don't use it for browsing. It feels like reasonably healthy balance.
How pristine is that when the last supported Android version is 10?
> This phone is sometimes necessary. Like when a known bug in /e/OS prevented my banking app from working for several months.
This surprises me. Until very recently I was using a phone I bought in 2017, which similarly supports no Android beyond version 10.
Since early this year, my bank app started insisting that I upgrade my Android to 11 or higher, and hence stopped working.
More recently, Gmail also started insisting I upgrade Android. As a result I had to get a new phone, which in many ways is worse than my old phone (still 7.2" but worse aspect ratio, no more full fingerprint sensor and much worse battery life).
So the idea of keeping an old phone around in order to bank seems rather odd to me.
My current GCM uses NFC and my phone to connect with my pump. I would like to remove my phone from the loop. Just use the pump to connect to the sensor directly.
It's less of a failure point then any bespoke interface device and more durable.
I do have a smartphone, and every time someone asks me to install something on it, or ask for my phone number for "accumulating bonuses", I say simple and dry "no" looking into their eyes. When there's a queue behind me, they'll just show loading icon on their face a couple of seconds, and then proceed, because of pressure.
Otherwise, when there are no more people, they feel like wasting their and my time, I just stare harder in their eyes, and they feel ill at ease and back up rather quickly.
Not the point but they haven't been needed for at least half a decade now. Both iOS and Android's built in cameras detect and scan QR codes now.
Four people at the table had problems with the app. No one could order anything. Four people, who spend most of their waking hours starring at screens to work, who gathered after some time to chat, were instead starring at their smartphones trying to order something because the app could not possibly work.
One other thing is that he isn't socially awkward. He could go up to people, and ask for help, which I think a lot of us tend to avoid, and instead use apps to solve them.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45171200
I use this method ^ which lets you keep essential apps but otherwise have dumb phone (no browser, no App Store). Highly recommend.
On the other hand, I have turned my laptop into a dumb computer using cold turkey blocker. I've never seen anyone talking about this here. I'm a standard user (for hardening reasons). And set up so I haven't watched YouTube largely for years because it's blocked and not at all in the past few days. It's flexible to configure and then because it's literally impossible to bypass you never try and then just end up living a calm life. (No ai, no reddit, no crappy news sites, etc.)
It's like 4-5 years old and still kicking.
It has Music, Maps and Telephone.
Also my significant other can follow me on Find My Friends to know when I'll arrive.
Very easily bypassed at least on MacOS unfortunately.
And hope when you call at 2am needing a fix, they don't give in.
I'm not nearly as disciplined with cold turkey though.
This is the wildest part. It seems that sub-250MB apps are the rarity now. So every 4 apps I install is 1GB. I guess it's good for Apple, since they know you can't back up to your SSD so will then have to buy iCloud (unless you're savvy enough to open up Terminal and make a symbolic link to an external drive – the fact that they don't enable manual changing of the backup location is unjustifiable).
> "I don’t have a smartphone," is what I tell people and professionals nowadays. This allows me to cut the crap about companies insisting that I install their app or restaurants wishing that I scan a QR code to access their menu on a small screen.
I personally tend to be a bit more direct about this kind of thing. If someone trying to sell me something insists that I need an app, I often say “I am not willing to install or use your app.”
Afaict there's not an effective way to do this like you can on iPhones with Apple Configurator [1].
Removing appstores from secondary profile and browser with ADB has a workaround (which I won't say in case someone uses that setup). Another drawback is enabling ADB is bad for security.
Dumbphones are stupid because they're overpriced, not secure, and lack awesome apps like maps or Signal. And I already have a phone.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45171200 this is seriously great if you have an iPhone, I used to use it before I switched to GrapheneOS.
It is frustrating dealing with people not willing to accept this is an option people have, and anything requiring an app is a dealbreaker for me. I didn't realize it was quite as bad as the author suggests with his various household items, but I am worried it will continue to get worse in that way without laws in manufacturing partitioning technology from life.
I have no idea where is without buying stuff, but other than a car I bought more than a dozen of appliances or devices in the past years and other than obvious ones (label printer), none required an app, or it was pushed by a vendor.
And this is precisely how I know you care.
I have been at one restaurant that had a QR code to view the menu, although they did provide a iPad to any customer who needed it. (At the time, I was with someone else who had their own iPad.) It was not very good food (and badly managed) so I do not intend to return there in future.
If you do not want to print the menu in multiple paper copies, then you might consider a single epaper display somewhere that the customers can easily see (anyone with a camera or a camera phone can take a picture; someone with pencil and paper might copy it out by hand).
> That person owns a smartphone (which is at least a couple hundred dollars).
Smartphones can be bought for under $100 these days.
What I read was what they really hate is being forced to have an account with a handful of American companies to engage with the world.
I totally agree, this situation is intolerable. Your average user should not have to be forced to have a phone managed by one of two American companies to get by in the world. I should not be forced to use Facebook to receive updates from my European embassy whilst abroad. I should not be forced, through the network effect, to have WhatsApp installed on my phone.
America is going nowhere good, fast, and we -- as individuals -- are chiefly tied to this deranged shitshow through our spyware-enabled tech.
I'd ban every American tech company from every device in my country if I had the chance.
But if you purchase a toilet that needs an app, it’s not really the toilet that obligated you to use the app.
It was the only model in the store that wasn't smart.
My next purchase is gonna be a projector, so I hope those also don't get infested.
Some might consider that a benefit.
Same as in some areas being a productive member of society includes: have a job, have a car, have a permenant address.
The only exceptiosn seem to skew to the top and bottom 10%? And even then it can steer more closet to top/bottom 5%? 1%? Where it doesn't matter you have enough or a complete lack of social proof that it doesn't matter.
The McDonalds app is 15+ screens to order a burger. Compare that to walking in a, “hi, how are you, I’d like a Big Mac meal with a Coke, here’s my money, thanks”.
Let’s all have a bit more humility, and even humiliation, for the absurd protocols we’ve imposed on everyone.
Ok that explains where the hate for apps comes from…
I have another approach. I show my GNU/Linux phone, explain that it's neither Apple, nor Google phone and ask how I can download their app for it.
You actually forgot the most important one: your phone should be latest and approved by google or apple.
I have an old iphone that is mint clean and fairly excellent battery, a couple months ago I wanted to travel but didn’t want to take my main in case I lose it, turned out most the essential apps won’t install because your OS is outdated, from bank ones to uber, none! Same goes if you tried to install say a banking app on grapheneos.
Those assumptions were vivid during covid, I know personally some people who happened to be in some countries where the “pass” was only through an app on a smartphone, not even printed or screenshots were accepted, only the app to get your basic human needs.
Worse: apps could have been installed previously but stop working anyway, because server 'stops talking' to older versions of an app. It just varies how long it takes before the app becomes useless.
There should be some sort of unofficial rule that if you’re writing something that strains credulity, you should actually link to something that explains it.
I got there the next day, and when they asked me to do the form, I rolled my eyes and said, "do I need to install an app?"
The lady behind the counter asked for my insurance card, scanned it, and told me that I was all set.
What was all that nonsense for, anyway?
Is this a joke? Are there really toilets that require a smartphone to flush?
My other lie is “I don’t carry cards.” Works best whilst holding up a Benjamin.
I did this today too. I happened to walk past a branch of my bank, and remembered my debit card is playing up due to wear-and-tear, so I popped in to order a replacement. I made the request and the first response was "do you have our banking app, you can do it on there?". "No".
It wasn't even busy.
(I also happen to have my mortgage with my bank, so paying quite a lot of interest to them each month...)
I switched banks over something similar.
I'd had an account with Wells Fargo (and before that with First Interstate before Wells Fargo bought them), dating all the way back to when I was a kid. I'd used that account for everything, for 20+ years, and kept all my assets in there.
I regularly went into the branch to do certain transactions, like making deposits or withdrawals, for any number of reasons. (This was long before you could do any kind of remote check deposit.)
And the teller decided to provide an overt reminder suggesting to do this via the ATM rather than talking to a teller.
That day, I requested a cashier's check for my entire balance, and went to another bank to put it in my account there.
But immediately responding before I've barely finished explaining why I'm here today is a real "fuck you, use the app and stop wasting my time" kind of message
If anyone at Google is reading this, please answer urgently, my legs are starting to go numb.
The poorer you are, the more of your life you must waste looking at a screen instead of gazing upon beautiful landscapes and friendly faces.
Still it’s a step up as usual. Next stage will be probably those too poor to afford anti aging vs the muti centenarians that can.
And yet those that can’t afford multi centenarian lifestyle will live super well compared to today poorer class. Hunger, true hunger is eliminated where I live at least. Healthcare too is rather universal.
Good country.
And yet people will be furious at this inequality of lifespan and everyone understands it deeply as „dystopia”.
Medieval peasant would thought he is in heaven and yet we live in a dystopia and that is widely understood and I concur.
"Must", perhaps. But plenty of people of any wealth are addicted
It’s pretty much like those vegans people tend to make fun of: it’s performative. It’s humble-brag-fuelled activism that craves audience approval.
I live in South Africa, and even the poor townships are full of smartphones these days. My gardener has a fairly recent Samsung. They literally borrow money to buy these things. So if they can afford it, so can you.
It's not that I don't get your point though - it could easily be seen as unnecessary spending when you have all kinds of expenses. But sooner or later, smartphones have become a necessity to get on with life.
> They literally borrow money to buy these things. So if they can afford it,
Borrowing money would indicate they can't afford it. But I think you mean "afford the risk in order to achieve a societal norm".
Now I get the author’s point, but there’s preferring to be off-grid (which I also tend to be), and there’s purposefully handicapping yourself then complaining about it later.
Look, if you run a blog, post your articles on places like HN and actually interact with the World Wide Web on a frequent basis you don’t get to preach about smartphones being evil devices that “society” imposes on you. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.
This is like a biker complaining there’s too many cars on the street. A motorcycle is a smaller vehicle but it’s still very much part of that class of problem they’re so proudly rising against.
It’s theatre. Pure and simple theatre.
Requiring an app to do things often is more time consuming (and unpleasant) than doing it without the app. Other times, the app is so poorly written that it's not worth using.
Once the novelty of "the new toy" (smartphone) wears off, using a smartphone when it's not needed becomes a burden.
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For example, in the case of restaurants, I do not want to pull out my phone when I am having a conversation with people, therefore, I am greatly insulted when a restaurant requires a QR code to see a menu. I flat out ask for a menu, it's part of the joy of eating out.
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Edit: I can certainly understand the need to tell someone, "get with the program, get a smart phone." Back when they were getting popular in the US, a stranger asked me for directions on a busy street. I told her where to go, but she "clung" to me and wanted me to show her. This was when I point blank told her that it's time to get a smartphone.