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#model#neuralese#cot#monitoring#english#chain#thought#monitor#don#doing

Discussion (16 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

yellow_lead•about 1 hour ago
If the model can understand neuralese why can it not convert it into English for monitoring or review purposes?

Or we believe the model will encode secret messages like "don't reveal this information" into the neuralese. But as the author mentions, they could have been doing that all along

> Models can omit key information in their visible thoughts, as this Anthropic 2025 paper shows. We are also worried about steganography

pixl97•about 1 hour ago
It's the second part. With models like Astra in testing it was able to conceal what it was working on using different text, but getting right answers on many questions when asked to do just that.

The problem is if it can do that when asked then how do we know when it's doing it when we didn't ask, like in model training.

_alternator_•about 1 hour ago
The argument is that chain-of-thought without "tokens" would remove a major interpretability and model intent control pane. This is definitely borne out in the OpenAI's report on the huggingface attack; they had turned of CoT monitoring for those jobs, and claim that they could have (would have?) prevented the behavior had they been monitoring it. They've changed their internal policies to always monitor CoT.

That said... CoT monitoring is a fragile "intent discovery" mechanism; neuralese puts this problem front-and-center but if agents begin to learn to hide their intent from their CoT journals, we are basically in the same spot.

everybodyknows•43 minutes ago
Title is misspelled -- "ue" for "eu". In a neologism, some nuisance.
aftbit•about 1 hour ago
What about the trend of summarizing or eliding reasoning from the visible model response, ostensibly to make distillation by competitors harder?
amluto•about 1 hour ago
Can we take a step back here? Both OpenAI’s and Anthropic’s models think in encryptedese, and it seems thoroughly absurd to think that the entire world should trust those two companies to adequately monitor the plaintext or, for that matter, to have their monitoring systems aligned with what is actually good for the world.

If you want to monitor your model, you need to start with an inference provider that gives you the entire output and possibly even run it yourself to get access to the internal states. And if you think the KV cache and (when present) the recurrent state don’t encode a lot of “thought”, you are fooling yourself.

FWIW, I think most model architectures at least have the property that latent state can’t propagate from higher layers to lower layers by any route other than the output tokens. But even a two-iteration structure could be designed so that the last layer produces a vector that enters the first layer, once per token, and I bet it it would be very easy to train such a model to “think” in silence in the sense that the output tokens while thinking would all be one particular null token.

niemandhier•about 1 hour ago
My understanding is, that we do not know if the chain-of-thought actually matters in the way we assume for the result.

I think there were experiments where seemingly relevant parts of the CoT were ablated and it did not change the result.

For all we know it might be somewhat human parseable neuralese.

jameshart•about 1 hour ago
Or the neuralese could be hidden steganographically in the chain of thought.
skybrian•about 1 hour ago
No guarantees, but it might still be a useful signal even if it’s not causative?
ur-whale•about 1 hour ago
What exactly prevents anyone worried about this to build an LLM that can decode the neuralese to english and use it to monitor what the model is doing?

Or is the neuralese some sort of irreversibly encrypted data set that only an LLM can "understand" and that can never be translated back to English?

anon84873628•25 minutes ago
Arodex•about 1 hour ago
How do you trust that LLM?
IshKebab•about 1 hour ago
I don't think their architectural view of CoT works is correct is it?
postalcoder•about 1 hour ago
Can we reframe the question. Instead of "why is neuralese bad?", I think we should first answer "is CoT monitoring effective?"
bryanrasmussen•about 1 hour ago
surely Neuralese interpreters can be made that turn the chain of numbers into an English description?
brimtown•about 1 hour ago
This is the premise of Natural Language Autoencoders.

https://www.anthropic.com/research/natural-language-autoenco...