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#gzip#language#text#compression#https#txt#llm#prompt#models#llms

Discussion (55 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

networked•19 minutes ago
I wanted to see how this would work with bzip2 and zstd. The source is public at https://github.com/nathanrs/gzipt, and I asked MiMo-V2.6-Flash to fork and modify it. The answer is that bzip2 produces sequences that don't resemble human language:

  gzipt \
      --corpus data/tinyshakespeare.txt \  
      --prompt $'MENENIUS:\n' \
      --length 200 \
      ;
  
  MENENIUS:
  MtLUMSeptuttyyyxyxyxyxyvyyyxyxyxyxyvyyyxyxyxyxywyvzyxyxyx
  yyxyyyxyxyxyxyxPlyxyxyxyxyxyxyxyxyxtoxzfTUS.zxzzzyzzzvzzz
  vzzzxvzyvyxyxyxyvyxyxyxyvy--,Vdvyxyxyxyxyxyxyxyxyxxy!zFlx
  zzyyxyxyxyvyxyxyxyvyySPffuyuy
(Line breaks added.) This looks roughly optimized for the most repetitive Burrows-Wheeler transform (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burrows%E2%80%93Wheeler_transf...).

Zstandard produces whitespace with the occasional letter thrown in. To quote MiMo: "As you can see, zstd does not speak Shakespeare. ... zstd encodes a run of one repeated byte as a near-free run-length sequence, and space and newline are the cheapest literals in the corpus: ten newlines cost about the same to append ten bytes of genuine corpus text and less than nonsense does."

berkes•about 1 hour ago
I've been pondering on something related: can an LLM be a chat?

Some models are reproducible, in that the same prompt will generate the same output. Say that we could wire up such a model to generate some code.

In that case, we could create a prompt that generates, say, an entire codebase, or a large piece of text. The prompt (or really, the tokens) would then be the compressed version of the codebase or the text.

I am not talking about an "AI agent", but really a model that we call in a reproducible manner. Preferably one call, with one prompt. An agent could just run `git clone` to "decompress" a codebase, which conflates the idea of compression. If that were compression, then the "compressed version of the git kernel" would be a single line of text: `git clone https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/lin...`. I am really talking about having an LLM re-generate text based on a prompt.

Does that make sense? I can imagine that this is highly impractical and inefficient. But would this count as "compression" at all?

eru•38 minutes ago
You sound a bit confused.

A large language model itself (the network) give you the probabilities for the next token given some prefix of tokens so far. You can use arithmetic coding to go from these probabilities to a deterministic compression / decompression algorithm.

When you use an LLM to generate text, you sample from that probability distribution. You can use a true random sample. Or you can make it trivially deterministic by using a seeded pseudo-random-number-generator or you just pick the highest probability each time. But that's all a red herring; really, what you want is arithmetic coding.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arithmetic_coding

evgpbfhnr•about 1 hour ago
You're describing https://bellard.org/ts_zip/ ("Text Compression using Large Language Models") ?
stackbutterflow•38 minutes ago
Man,did that page load fast. It made me realize how slow the rest the (my) web is.
flyinglizard•1 minute ago
It makes a lot of sense. I thought about it in the context of pull requests or change sets: if the text-to-code process is reliable, why don't you give me prompts instead of code? Code becomes just an intermediate representation.
jll29•about 1 hour ago
Yes: you can classify a test file by topic with gzip as follows:

  gzip -9 sports.txt   testfile.txt

  gzip -9 politics.txt testfile.txt

  gzip -9 business.txt testfile.txt
(ass. sports.txt politics.txt and business.txt are text docs pertaining from the sports, politics and business domains, respectively, and have equal size)

The test file belongs to the topic with the smallest size *.gz file.

Witten's group at Waikato uni were perhaps the first to work on this.

Also check out the Hutter prize if you are interested in this.

Culonavirus•about 3 hours ago
This tracks perfectly with Winrar being more profitable than OpenAI... coincidence? I think not!
wolfi1•about 2 hours ago
winrar is profitable? sure? well, on the other hand, they sure don't make losses
GodelNumbering•about 2 hours ago
3blue1brown did a series on this topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6DKRf-fAAM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlYgs6v2YfU (i think one more is yet to release)
mg•about 3 hours ago

    give it a normal text prompt, and it
    continues that prompt by searching
    for the byte sequences that compress
    best.
One moment, how are we supposed to know how well that search was done? There is no way to search a meaningful part of the search space.

So the result only gives us some lower bound of how well gzip works as a "plausibility tester" of a continuation of a text. The space of possible sequences is many orders of magnitude larger than what was searched. So there might be sequences in there that compress much better.

The text mentions beamsearch, but I don't see a discussion about how well beamsearch performs in finding the global optima when it comes to gzip compressibility of a text?

modin•33 minutes ago
R. Hendricks, D. Chugtai, and J. Dunn, "Lossless compression via optimized middle-out bitstream processing," Pied Piper Inc., Palo Alto, CA, Tech. Rep. 42, Apr. 2014.
montebicyclelo•about 2 hours ago
This is fun, but historically people have gone a bit overboard with saying that models like this, or n-gram language models, are anywhere close to large neural network models. There is certainly a connection though.
Matumio•about 1 hour ago
Yes, but it is a useful insight that both methods try to solve the same mathematical problem. It's better than thinking of LLMs as magic.

When you say "cross-entropy loss" people without stats background go to Wikipedia, take a glance, and adjust their mental model to "inscrutable magic".

Thinking of the main difference as the trade-off in how much CPU, memory and storage is allowed is not really wrong.

The part that is wrong is to think of gzip as a method that might reach similar complexity or generalization. And more importantly, to ignore the advanced way how training data gets curated or generated for (instructed, chain-of-thought) LLMs. But even then. The mental model that the LLM's goal is text compression is not wrong. The question to ask next is what kind of text it is expecting to compress.

adityaathalye•30 minutes ago
I think language itself is compression, so the arxiv paper tracks for me.

Viz. if Language is compression (of thought / culture / the tacit je ne sait quois of being-to-being communication etc.), then definitionally, Language Modelling must also be Compression.

Except, language is an arbitrarily lossy compressor, who's "compression-prediction equivalence" is indeterminate and unstable, because Language co-evolves constantly; both as a function of or response to culture, as well as an influencer of culture.

So, the subjective-objective goodness of Language Models (of any kind of language) would be, at best, upper-bounded by the compression-prediction equivalence of the Languages corpus itself. And that is assuming the language corpus is perfect in every way---it captures all knowledge expressible by language and it is always in-sync with live evolution of all language expression and evolution (i.e. LLM training is not a batch job, but a real-time present continuous process).

For example, to my layperson eyes, the mathematical language of proofs actively weeds out ambiguity of subjective interpretation. Ideally, a proof ought to lead to the exact same conclusion on every single reading by any reader who can follow the steps. A proof also holds only if the rest of the formal, explicit, inviolable, internally-consistent set of axioms and results holds.

So it stands to reason that mathematical prose of proofs, being optimised as mechanical procedure of taking an open question to a deterministically closed solution, has better odds of approximating the tacit aspects of mathematical derivation.

Which makes an LLM able to construct a mathematical proof, which is mind-melting to say the least.

However, I wonder, can LLMs dream of mathematical sheep?

tromp•about 2 hours ago
I'm more interested in the converse question: how well does an LLM perform as a compressor, compared to gzip (ignoring its insanely lower speed)?
gkbrk•about 2 hours ago
Top contestant in the Hutter Prize uses a neural network for compression. So fair to say, LLMs would perform pretty well compared to gzip.
asdfsa32•about 2 hours ago
lossless vs lossy is the question.
relevant_stats•about 1 hour ago
Yay, another mostly AI authored piece with vibe-coded aesthetics.

Some will say that I should 'judge the idea, not the form'.

But if the author didn't find enough strength to write alone a short ~700 words summary about his work, it means he himself isn't that interested or enthusiastic about it. Why should others bother then? Particularly since low-effort like that signals possibility the whole work is superficial and derivative.

marand23•17 minutes ago
I thought it was interesting.
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elendilm•12 minutes ago
Good article.

Compression is a property of language.

A seemingly simple sentence like "I had lunch" has enormous amount of information compressed inside it.

The word lunch is a compressed form of "having food at noon" and "noon" in turn is a compressed form of "Sun's position against Earth's rotation" and so on and so forth.

Every sentence has layers of compressed sentences. How many layers one chooses to decompress is up to the person.

Tornhoof•about 2 hours ago
Previous discussions of that specific page https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48557691
mentalgear•about 2 hours ago
Interesting approach, I wonder how this could be used as a classifier. :)
networked•about 2 hours ago
Check out "Text classification with Python 3.14's zstd module" (https://maxhalford.github.io/blog/text-classification-zstd/, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46942864). I wanted to link it somewhere in the comments. :-)
Sesse__•about 2 hours ago
I've used LZO as a spam classifier on chat. Spam tends to be very content-less and repetitive...
nelox•about 1 hour ago
Only if it can run DOOM.
0x20cowboy•about 2 hours ago
.
bob1029•about 2 hours ago
Not without attention or something approximating it.

The fact that gzip is relatively fast should be your first clue that something important is missing.

Gzip is great at predicting the next token for one very specific narrative. LLMs can predict next tokens for entire universes of narratives. Searching for the correct next token across this space scales ~quadratically with the input size. Gzip scales linearly. I can gzip a one terabyte file. Imagine feeding that much into an LLM. These are wildly different animals that happen to overlap in a very small way. Equating compression to intelligence looks increasingly silly to me.

If we must compare language models to compression, they are much more like jpeg and mp3 than they are gzip and flac. I can go fuck with a jpeg file pretty severely at the bitstream level and still have something resembling performance on the other side. Gzip cannot remotely approach this.

Retr0id•about 2 hours ago
> Gzip scales linearly. I can gzip a one terabyte file.

In part because gzip only has a 32KiB window size, and I think it'd be at least quadratic within that window if you were going for optimal compression.

Sesse__•about 2 hours ago
Match-finding does not need to be quadratic. However, truly optimal gzip block splitting is very slow, indeed.
amelius•about 2 hours ago
Perhaps a better question is if LLMs are used as compressors, how well is that expected to work.
magicalhippo•about 2 hours ago
> if LLMs are used as compressors, how well is that expected to work

Quite well. This project[1], by Fabrice Bellard of ffmpeg fame, is quite old in AI years and uses an ancient LLM, but still beats xz by a solid margin.

[1]: https://bellard.org/ts_zip/

Retr0id•about 2 hours ago
Extremely well, aside from speed.
bob1029•about 2 hours ago
> aside from speed.

And energy consumption.