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#liver#more#don#neurons#cell#human#heart#why#cells#lot

Discussion (104 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

senfiaj•29 minutes ago
Most of the body doesn't regenerate because there was not enough evolutionary pressure. Even with regeneration you could still easily die from some severe injury, blood loss or disease. While salamander regeneration is impressive, it has its limitations. For example, no known adult salamander can regenerate an entirely removed eye. Also if you chop a salamander, it will not regenerate like a Planarian worm, it will just die. And a fun fact, Axolotls can regrow a limb yet cannot regenerate an adult eye lens.

Also, although the article is mostly true, there are some inaccuracies:

>> Neurons and cardiac muscle cells don't reproduce after childhood

There is some evidence showing a slow cell turnover in cardiac muscle, estimated around ~1% per year in young adults, falling toward ~0.5% in older people. Most neurons don't regenerate, but there an evidence that some parts of the adult brain (such as hippocampus) still produce new neurons, although the number is very low.

Liver regeneration is not perfect either: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOv7Sr3X-eo .

asdfman123•3 minutes ago
Actually I would argue that the evolutionary pressures run against it: if one generation dominates then the species can't evolve.
cityofdelusion•about 2 hours ago
The author suggests humans are overturned to repairing skin and blood, but I strongly disagree. People with problems with wound healing can face significant disability and mortality. Wound healing allows us to have surgery and close up with simple sutures. A lot of complications post-surgery in humans and other animals are specifically from impaired wound healing capability. It’s a good trade-off: nearly everyone will eventually get cut open by accident or on purpose. The skins ability to heal is so amazing that many types of wounds require nothing other than some cleaning, the body will fully clot, bridge, build, and scar back to most retained function. Wound healing allows us to heal large burns and even simply leave many wounds open to air.

Complications with healing are pretty brutal. Necrosis, amputation, infection are all common without the built-in cascade we have.

WhiteOwlLion•about 1 hour ago
Your liver makes platelets so if your liver function is not optimal, wound healing is harder.

Some people also have rare diseases where they don’t have clotting factors so require a transfusion of clotting factors before surgery for optimal wound healing.

Noe2097•about 2 hours ago
> And even after taking [immunosuppressants], there’s a 30% chance the kidney will be rejected within 10 years. This is not helpful.

To the author: thank you, you made my day. It had been a very, very long time since I last read an article on the Internet that felt written by a human being - with humor, some poetry, and science.

WhiteOwlLion•about 1 hour ago
Immunosuppressants like tacrolimus given at too high of a level for many years can wear down your kidneys faster requiring a transplant potentially after ten years.
epcoa•about 2 hours ago
"Some day, your immune system may decide to attack your pancreas."

Immune attack of the pancreas is usually a disease of youth. Type 2 diabetes which is overwhelmingly the diabetes associated with aging is not an autoimmune disease.

joshmarinacci•about 1 hour ago
Adult onset Type 1 has become a lot more common in recent decades. Ask me how I know.
mschuster91•about 1 hour ago
Just like a ton of other autoimmune diseases.
vconnor•about 3 hours ago
The punishment for Prometheus stealing fire from the Gods and gifting it to humanity, was to be chained to a rock and having an eagle feed on his liver which would regrow the next day.
bheadmaster•about 3 hours ago
For what it's worth, Prometheus was a Titan, and Titan was immortal, so his liver regrowing the next day wasn't really that special. If eagle fed on his heart, or lungs, they would've regrown too.

The Greeks chose liver because it symbolized the defiance Prometheus had against gods.

bryanrasmussen•about 2 hours ago
There's really no knowing why the Greeks chose liver, or some specific Greek chose liver.

It could have been because the liver was regenerative and they were using the titan with the regenerating liver as another reference to humanity, or it could have been as someone pointed out because predators like to eat the liver first, or it could have been that you can take damage to the liver and live for hours afterwards in agony whereas the same amount of damage to the heart or lungs is apt to cause death to come much quicker.

Perhaps there are undiscovered variants out there were the eagle or a serpent or some other animal attacks his genitals, or his eyes.

But at any rate the Eagle ate his liver, it means nothing in particular, and at the same time it means every particular interpretation we can place on it.

bheadmaster•about 2 hours ago
Whatever the actual reason for choosing the liver was, we can be certain it wasn't its regenerative property, since such proprerty was unknown to the Greeks at the time.
pazimzadeh•about 2 hours ago
I don't know about the Greeks but I know a lot of ancient cultures thought the liver was the most important organ (probably because it's full of blood).

For example in Persian poetry the word liver is found pretty much everywhere you would expect to see the word heart.

"You are my liver" is a nice/romantic thing to say to this day.

mwigdahl•about 2 hours ago
I thought they chose it because it tastes great with some fava beans and a nice Chianti.
seizethecheese•about 3 hours ago
Why would liver signal defiance?
Sleaker•about 3 hours ago
It was the believed area of emotion, passion and 'soul'. I think western/modern religion has morphed from the liver to the heart essentially.
jephs•about 3 hours ago
There are a bunch of Japanese words (including a several loanwords from Chinese) that use the liver / gallbladder metaphorically for courage. Both derive from associations between the humours and personality / behavior. I have no idea, however, why both Eastern and Western naive psychology associate gall with, well, gall.
bheadmaster•about 3 hours ago
I phrased it awkwardly. Simply put, in Ancient Greece, liver was something like heart in modern society. It was the seat of human emotions.

So by destroying Prometheus' liver, Zeus attempted to destroy his human emotions, including his pride and defiance against gods.

Bluestein•about 3 hours ago
Humors perhaps. Not my area, so I do not recall the correspondence ...
bell-cot•about 3 hours ago
I'm thinking the Greeks chose liver because it is the first thing that many predators will eat from a kill - large, more nutrient-dense than almost any other tissue, and relatively quick to access.
joshmarinacci•about 1 hour ago
Many if not most of these oddities about humans come down to either they don’t affect reproduction, or because humans are social animals. Menopause makes sense because a grandmother will have more successful descendants if she stops having babies and helps her daughters with the grandkids. I would guess the few other species that exhibit menopause are also social animals.
amluto•about 4 hours ago
The lack of heart cancer might be more complex than the OP imagines:

https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/no-heart-cancer-th...

jaggederest•about 3 hours ago
Other animals do get heart cancer, which is fascinating. It's still very uncommon compared to other cancers, but not virtually absent as it is in people.
schnuri•about 4 hours ago
I am in awe about how wonderfully engineered by evolution the body is. E.g., what we are able to do with it and how it heals itself when we have an injury. Sure, many people would not live long without external intervention, but many others would. I still want to see the robot that can survive 80 active years without maintenance.
onlypassingthru•about 1 hour ago
The human machine doesn't just survive without external intervention, it actually gets better at being a machine. Speed, endurance, power, coordination... all improve with usage.
fhn•about 1 hour ago
until you get old and goes the opposite direction
dgunay•about 3 hours ago
Well, we do at least have to eat enough food and sleep ~1/3rd of our lives. That's kinda maintenance
vconnor•about 2 hours ago
Compared to most animals that spend their entire day foraging for food, it's not too bad. Adapting to eating dense and very nutritious animal flesh is a great time-saver, and as we didn't evolve long fangs, we had to learn to use tools instead, and the rest is history. (mixing cause and effect here for dramatic purposes)
nerdralph•about 2 hours ago
I think learning to cook food was likely a greater benefit. It's like we externally expanded our means of digestion.

I watched a Ted talk where the speaker suggested our large brains with their high energy consumption would not have been possible were it not for cooking.

yhjc2692•about 2 hours ago
quite the delightful maintenance too
micromacrofoot•about 3 hours ago
that's absolutely maintenance, without it you have a total system failure in a week
ericmay•about 3 hours ago
When you watch those sci-fi shows and folks have nanobots implanted in them that heal wounds really fast or do other cool things I can't help but think in many ways we already have that technology we just need it to do more, faster as our brains and ability to create things have outpaced the rate of evolutionary change.
RobotToaster•about 3 hours ago
Humans don't last long without topping up their fluids and consumables.
markyc•about 3 hours ago
no you don't
arcanemachiner•about 3 hours ago
Well, so much for that discussion.
chistev•about 3 hours ago
The human body can't survive 80 active years without maintainance. They take drugs, they see the doctor, etc.
CookieCrisp•about 3 hours ago
What did people do 500 years ago?
EduardoBautista•about 3 hours ago
Die as a child at alarming rates
daitangio•38 minutes ago
Very nice, well written and interesting! Amazing!
warumdarum•about 3 hours ago
Because alcoholism forces hunter gatherer cultures into settlements, which are the next stage of civilization and reward those doing that choice?
danecek099•about 1 hour ago
I love this theory
randomImmigrant•30 minutes ago
The author cops to teleology, apologizes for it, then continues to use it to explain these behaviors.

This is always a problem when one tries to view biology through an engineering lens. The functions we see today emerged well after the genes themselves started on the path that allowed them to support these specific functions in us. Nor are the genes restricted to exactly identical functions even when their sequence is identical. The context of each cell matters.

Rather than beginning from external function and going down to find energy, replication and cancer/escape from multicellularity as factors affecting these organ’s behavior, it’s a lot better to go cell up, where metabolism, DNA replication, waste clearance, and cell to cell communication and cell-microenvironment sensing are all constantly having to be balanced.

The functions we see from ensembles of cells are composed of these cell level behaviors multiplexing.

And when we look at the eukaryotic cell, we don’t just see linear DNA. We also see mitochondria. Our mitochondria reproduce and proliferate in all cells, depending on energy requirements. The process also produces a lot of reactive oxygen species which need to be kept tamped down to prevent damage.

And the mitochondrial endosymbiotic event also potentially explains why we have linear DNA in a separate compartment. From first eukaryotic common ancestor (FECA) to the last eukaryotic common ancestor (LECA), you had two genomes inside one cell, and by the time we got to LECA a bunch of DNA from the alphaproteobacter that became mitochondria migrated to the core genome, leaving the mitochondrial genome to remain circular.

The exact time and reason for linearization of DNA is (as yet) lost to deep time. But we can see a path from two circular genomes to one linear one circular and construct a fairly believable hypothesis to why you got linearization: as cell type increased, you needed more transcript copies, and access to different transcripts at different times at different rates. A linear genome is much better able to accommodate these requirements. And this has resulted in prokaryotes also partially or fully linearizing some of their genomic material when the need arises (Cyanobacteria, the first autotrophs, have some strains with linear ends, and Lyme disease and streptococcus also break from full circularity).

This linearization is also critical for mitosis and meiosis.

As far as the exact causal chain, we are, at the moment, groping in the blind, since the FECA->LECA transition occurred some 2 billion years ago, and we don’t have candidate fossils. They are reconstructed from genomic puzzle pieces, which is why we have these holes.

In that transition timetable, it is possible commitments were made that shape everything we see today.

Beyond doubt, those commitments had to thread everything a single cell has to thread.

And then came multicellularity, which had its own tradeoffs.

Teleology doesn’t help because none of these early commitments were being made with the specifics of our current lifestyle in mind, or even that complex beings like us could exist.

Evolution is a blind watchmaker. Ignore that and you’ll end up with nice sounding ideas that may not quite fit what we see.

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agumonkey•about 3 hours ago
Anybody on HN knows platforms to discuss this ?
gchamonlive•about 3 hours ago
This is a platform and we are discussing this, which means such a platform isn't enough for what you need. Not judging, actually I've felt a degradation in engagement quality as of late, maybe it's personal bias, but the discussions seem more shallow or aggressive.

In any case, what would you expect from such a platform? That would help with recomendations.

agumonkey•about 2 hours ago
Hacker news is dedicated to 'tech' and I'm looking for advances in biology.
thisisauserid•about 2 hours ago
Shouldn't the question be, "Why isn't everything else?"
Aeolun•about 3 hours ago
I feel like this is obvious. Eventually dying of all the weird body failures doesn’t inhibit your ability to procreate, but if you cannot survive alcohol or other various poisons you’ll never make it to a fertile age.
nofunsir•about 1 hour ago
It's more than possible to make it to adulthood without ingesting a drop of alcohol, even if you're talking about fermented fruit. It's easy, in fact.
nomel•about 3 hours ago
Picking the wrong berry from a bush isn't so difficult. Ask me how I know. And, for my second encounter, don't think because you see an animal eating it, it's safe!
colechristensen•about 1 hour ago
And onions are mildly toxic to cats and dogs. There is a lot less shared responses as to what is toxic or edible across species.

Basically every flavor compound in an herb or spice we eat is a poison directed at insects, microbes, or other creatures. (much less every medicinal or psychoactive compound found in nature)

cratermoon•about 2 hours ago
Did you know birds do not have receptors for capsaicin? They can eat any pepper and it doesn't affect them. So if you see a bird snacking on a pepper that's red or greenish-yellow, wrinkly, and has a pointy end, well ... watch out
kypro•about 2 hours ago
My guess is that this is half the story. It seems like there would be some advantage to some creatures of not aging, or having individuals who have significant longer life spans.

This is common in evolutionary algorithms anyway so it's notable we don't see it in nature, at least not in the form of extended lifespan perhaps measured by average lifetime heart beats. It's easy to imagine a world where nature might want to keep the alpha lion around longer than the others so it can have more offspring, for example.

colechristensen•about 1 hour ago
>It seems like there would be some advantage to some creatures of not aging, or having individuals who have significant longer life spans.

There is, if there were no advantage a whole lot more species would die immediately after reproduction like the octopus.

Many simpler organisms are vaguely immortal.

>It's easy to imagine a world where nature might want to keep the alpha lion around longer than the others so it can have more offspring, for example.

The utility of genetic diversity puts a lot of pressure against this.

card_zero•about 4 hours ago
> Evolution decided the good outweighed the bad, and I expect that evolution was right.

We can expect evolution to do the right thing for the genes. Not for us.

cortesoft•about 3 hours ago
I get its just a framework to understand what is happening, but I always hate the phrasing of describing a 'decision' to a process like evolution. There are no decisions being made in the process, just a series of outcomes that lead in a direction
someonebaggy•about 3 hours ago
Evolution is literally just the observation that there are lots of things that self-replicate.

That's it. That's the entire thing. Plus some nuance about things that self-replicate faster than other things...

It occurs at all levels. Amyloid protein in Alzheimer's patients is self-replicating. So are cells. So are individual parts of cells. Sometimes things replicate by being parts of a larger thing that replicates, sometimes they don't. It's all one big chaotic tangled mess with no particular purpose or design. Human cells evolve, so do humans, so do human societies. So do rocks.

cwillu•about 3 hours ago
Rocko can't have kids, because Rocko is just a stupid rock.
dekhn•about 2 hours ago
No, evolution is not an observation that there are things that replicate. Darwin's view, which has survived mostly intact, is that there is replication with variation and that more fit individuals replicate at a higher rate ("survival of the fittest" isn't a correct description; plenty of less fit individuals do replicate, but they contribute very little to the population genetics in the long run)

And amyloid protein doesn't self-replicate. An instance of the misfolded form causes other folded proteins of the same type to transition to the misfolded form. It's a form of catalysis, not self-replication.

CookieCrisp•about 3 hours ago
Indeed, I’ve heard so many people misunderstand it because of this type of wording. Like there is still some plan and series of steps we’re following - which really misses the whole point and why it’s worth knowing in the first place
card_zero•about 2 hours ago
Oh, fair point, I did the pathetic fallacy (too). Beneficial thing, then.
bbor•about 4 hours ago

   I greatly resent having to be a biological organism and subject to all the poor engineering and design decisions that entails.
The first word of that sentence implies its absurdity quite beautifully. She resents, therefor she is.

And then this:

  Brains. After you reach adulthood, neurons don’t divide. If some of your neurons die—which happens every day—then they’re gone. If you get a brain injury, the other neurons will try to “learn around” the injury, but the neurons themselves are never replaced.
We need more neuroscience in schools! This summary is technically correct ofc, but to imply that the brain is missing some obviously-better option is absurd. We're meat that thinks, y'all; it's far from crap.
someonebaggy•about 3 hours ago
IIRC the slow loss of neurons is more than balanced by the additional fine-tuning - unless you get dementia, if course.

Loss of neurons isn't disastrous as long as it's not too many. Babies are born with several times more neurons than children have, and spend a few months letting all the useless ones die. Apparently it's better to start with a random tangle and prune it to shape (like cutting a box hedge) than to make a hedge grow in a box shape to begin with.

And IIRC brains can grow more neurons under some circumstances (certain drugs?) - they just normally don't.

rzzzt•about 3 hours ago
"While questions remain regarding the precise extent, rate, and functional relevance of adult neurogenesis in the human brain, as well as important methodological considerations, multiple independent approaches now converge in support of its persistence throughout adulthood."

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S193459092...

done_lurking•about 3 hours ago
Why is it absurd to say that the human brain could be better? That seems obviously true to me.
dekhn•about 3 hours ago
the claim isn't complete, either. Recent research has demonstrated adult neurogenesis (growth of new cells that originate from neural stem cells).
monster_truck•34 minutes ago
Is there something that causes every substack article to be several times longer than it needs to be? There's just so much color and filler around the information I was interested in