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#europe#european#semiconductor#taiwan#intel#asml#steel#ireland#capacity#chips

Discussion (100 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

HPsquared•about 2 hours ago
Semiconductor fabs involve a lot of hazardous chemicals, process changes and high energy consumption. Exactly the kind of thing European regulations tend to deter or slow down. Which is somewhat fine if there is nowhere else to build it, but if other places are easier, well...
l5870uoo9y•about 2 hours ago
> high energy consumption

Just to address this separately: there is effectively energy rationing in several European countries, where the government intervenes to prioritize who should receive energy first (e.g., the Netherlands and Denmark).

vovavili•about 2 hours ago
A consequence of a totally self-imposed handicap.
alephnerd•about 2 hours ago
Most fabs build their own separate power grid.

And Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan are also energy poor states that have been able to maintain capacity.

The energy excuse is true for some manufacturing processes like automotive in CEE which were pants that were built in the 1990s to 2000s and leveraged Russian ONG, but is a red herring for a lot of other manufacturing processes in Europe.

European states have a coordination problem as Draghi pointed out 2 years ago.

peri-cl•about 2 hours ago
TSMC alone uses 1/8th of Taiwan's electricity (and rising). They make it work.

https://spectrum.ieee.org/taiwan-semiconductor

https://www.datacenterdynamics.com/en/news/tsmc-could-accoun...

piltdownman•about 2 hours ago
I mean Ireland has some of the most strenuous regulations in this regard, with dozens of data centres blocked over planning and environmental impact assessments. Despite this Intel still put €30 billion in turning a 360-acre former stud farm in Kildare into a semiconductor wafer fabrication facility, powered entirely by green energy, and acting a key location for production of Intel’s 14nm process technology. They currently pull 1,677,197 MWh/year from our grid.

More to the point, from 2019 they built €17 billion new fab development which doubled the manufacturing capacity available in Ireland and enabled the production of Intel 4, the company’s most advanced process technology.

mikeyouse•about 2 hours ago
For better or worse, Ireland’s extremely lax tax rules resulted in a ton of multinational corporate cash ‘stuck’ there with companies having the option of spending there roughly tax free or repatriating back to the US at some rate higher than that. It also really helps sell the ‘of course an Irish subsidiary owns all of our IP’ tax claims if there is actual spending there, hence you got all the pharma investment and the capital projects from others like Intel and Apple.
piltdownman•about 2 hours ago
Rather the US lax rules regarding their own enforcement.

The Double Irish (& Dutch Sandwich) where Companies routed profits through two Irish-registered subsidiaries, attributing intellectual property royalties to a management seat in a tax haven like Bermuda, is closed since 2015.

Subsequent sequential mismatch structures (the "Single Malt" tool) that replaced the Double Irish for certain firms using non-EU residency loops were also banned. Finally there's a 12.5% charge on unrealized capital gains when a company moves its assets or tax residency out of Ireland.

The headline tax rate and the effective tax rate are also very different things. France's effective corporate tax rate was actually lower than Irelands - but France is an absolutely brutal place to do business in for employers and they've comparatively no english-language tech FDI to speak of.

alephnerd•about 2 hours ago
"Trapped capital" is not why Intel has doubled down on Ireland.

It's because whenever Intel asks for anything, the Taoiseach, IDA, and Invest Ireland will move mountains to do it.

Ireland is extremely business friendly because their leadership actually listens to industry.

upupupandaway•about 2 hours ago
>construction kicked off in 2019 on a €17 billion new fab development which will double

I think what the OP wanted to highlight is right here: in China or Taiwan etc. this would not have taken 7 years.

piltdownman•about 1 hour ago
I mixed up a tense or two there. It was done in 4 years, even accounting for Covid. The timeline looks like this

2019: Kick-off

2020: Construction in Ireland basically halted due to Lockdown for 18 months

Q3'2023: Fab 34 begins running a ‘First Full Loop’ of silicon

Q4'2023: Fab 34 completed. Doubles the manufacturing capacity available in Ireland, enabling the production of Intel 4 and Intel 3, some of the company’s most advanced process technologies, and the first to incorporate EUV lithography

2024: Intel sold 49% stake to Apollo GM for $11.2bn

2026: Intel buys back stake for $14.2bn

Q2'2026: Intel announce a further $5.7bn investment to upgrade existing capacity for server chips, slated for completion by late 2027

Zagitta•about 2 hours ago
Everyone loves a good race to the bottom with the environment
alephnerd•about 2 hours ago
Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, and the US all share comparable living standards to Western European states yet are able to maintain and expand semiconductor manufacturing.

The issue is with policymaking - coordination between the EU, national, and local governments is weak so high capex projects become risky.

Edit: can't reply

> Your first 3 countries are also incredibly poor comparisons for living standards as they have horrendous work/life balance.

Their hours worked are comparable to most Western European states as well now [0]. Germany is unique in Europe based on hours worked, and is why German industry is pushing to bring back the 40 hour work week.

[0] - https://www.oecd.org/en/data/indicators/hours-worked.html

Zagitta•about 1 hour ago
So now we're suddenly talking about living standards and not environmental regulation?

Your first 3 countries are also incredibly poor comparisons for living standards as they have horrendous work/life balance.

throwaway132448•about 2 hours ago
> comparable living standards

So vague as to be utterly meaningless.

And slow moving regulation literally incentivises high capex long-horizon investment.

cromka•about 2 hours ago
This is some ridiculous speculation, we do plenty of such critical manufacturing in EU. Regulations is not why we don't make highly-integrated chips here.
scotty79•about 1 hour ago
Why then?
mdp2021•about 1 hour ago
A probably non negligible weight is that decadence is bearish.

Those alive invest in long term planning, those with a dead drive get conservative in their action.

yomismoaqui•about 3 hours ago
I'm european and I would buy an ASML t-shirt, will this move the needle enough?
wvbdmp•about 2 hours ago
I would buy that Lego set.
andy_ppp•about 2 hours ago
Oh man… a whole fan would be good https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bReWaZz5Grg but the actual did it already :-)
trvz•about 2 hours ago
Best I can do is half a pair of ASML socks.
aaronbrethorst•about 2 hours ago
Very Red Hot chili peppers of you
m00dy•about 2 hours ago
I would wait for its regulation before the buy :D
Kim_Bruning•about 3 hours ago
So currently europe is exposed to russia-ukraine, us-iran, and shortly china-taiwan. This is not a great place to be in.
HPsquared•about 3 hours ago
The beatings will continue until morale improves.
soco•about 3 hours ago
The brainless policies continue as we speak: traditional parties keep you exposed to financial masters because money talks, and extremists keep you exposed to their masters because, again, money talks. So: money talks and Europe is still a good milking cow.
bilbo0s•about 3 hours ago
Not really much of a consolation, but it's pretty obvious that the standing committee is perfectly happy to sit back and chuckle while watching the rest of the world burn from that nice safe distance. So at least there won't be any china-taiwan issues.

But that's little consolation I understand. I get that when there are two elephants sitting on you, someone telling you how fortunate you are to not have a third one on top of you as well, is a little annoying.

t43562•about 2 hours ago
It seems to be "dump on Europe" day which I'm sure is popular but lets just stop for a second and ask what the sales of ASML machinery to the US would be without the CHIPS act .... a massive subsidy. Aren't subsidies supposed to be a bad European thing??? I'm confused. Are we free market proponents or planned economy proponents?
upupupandaway•about 2 hours ago
I don't think this is the main point (subsidies). ASML sold nothing in Europe because Europe is not a factor in semi manufacturing, primarily due to regulations and bureaucracy.
hn_submit•about 2 hours ago
Europe is continually complaining about its dependency on Chinese steel, cars, electronics and semiconductors yet their carmakers are buying cheap Chinese steel instead of European steel and European semiconductor manufacturers are preferring cheap Chinese semiconductor equipment over ASML gear.

The European Commission wanted to put hefty tariffs on dumped Chinese steel but the carmakers sought an exemption. They don't care about European sovereignty, only about their profits. Penny wise and pound foolish. I doubt there will still be a European car industry in two decades or so.

Europe is a lost continent.

DarkNova6•about 2 hours ago
> Europe is continually complaining about its dependency on Chinese steel, cars, electronics and semiconductors yet their carmakers are buying cheap Chinese steel instead of European steel and European semiconductor manufacturers are preferring cheap Chinese semiconductor equipment over ASML gear.

You clearly have no idea about the value creation chain. Steel is a commodity, why shoot yourself into the foot by buying expensive one. And semiconductors are not commodities.

But I guess this logic only makes sense to a country that insists on using its own overpriced steel to save a couple jobs.

hn_submit•43 minutes ago
How are you gonna fight a war when you can't make the steel for your bullets and artillery grenades? Yes, that's the scary logic we need to take into account these days.

Steel is not a commodity, it's a basic ingredient in any industrial base.

petcat•about 2 hours ago
> Another concern is that even advanced silicon produced in Ireland or at ESMC is then shipped to other regions for packaging, meaning that European companies have largely lost their ability to produce sophisticated chips entirely in Europe. In turn, this means that, for now, there is hardly any strategic point for European authorities to create demand for chips that are 'Made in Europe' because they are either not assembled in Europe, not produced in Europe, or not developed in Europe. We have no idea whether this is eventually going to change, but there are currently no signs that it will.

This is just such a dire situation to be in. Even USA has seen the writing on the wall regarding China-Taiwan which is why it has been strategically re-homing all the most advanced chip fab technology to Arizona [1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TSMC_Arizona

alephnerd•about 2 hours ago
This was a major flaw that I and others brought up a couple years ago when the EU was consulting industry about making its own CHIPS Act.

While bleeding edge backend processes got the bulk of reporting, the major push for the American CHIPS Act was the rebuild packaging capacity in the US (Samsung is working on this in Texas).

This was also the same approach Taiwan, Malaysia, and China used to climb up the semiconductor value chain.

The EU also failed to tie design capacity together as well, as semiconductor design capacity is almost nonexistent in Europe.

piltdownman•about 2 hours ago
Semiconductor design capacity is a massive issue almost always overlooked in these conversations. Spot on.
hn_submit•32 minutes ago
There's certainly semiconductor design capacity in Europe, but it's mostly geared towards low-end semiconductors, like the ones used in automotive and industrial. NXP and ST are designing ICs in Europe but relatively commodity stuff like low-end MCUs and motor controllers.
expedition32•about 2 hours ago
The Netherlands has always put its economic chips on America and Asia.

Europe is just a geographic accident as far as the Dutch are concerned.

okokwhatever•about 2 hours ago
Amusement Park continent. And yes, I'm European and know what I'm talking about.
Tade0•about 2 hours ago
You must be living in one of those nicer parts where tourism is present.
PorciiVorbesc•about 2 hours ago
High tourism doesn't make a place more livable for teh locals.
nwatson•about 2 hours ago
Sounds interesting. Now go make me a cappuccino before my next ride.
bethekidyouwant•about 3 hours ago
What is perhaps more important from ASML's standpoint is that none of the ongoing fab projects in Europe are leading-edge fabs set to use EUV and eventually High-NA EUV lithography scanners. The tools that European fabs use today and that new facilities are set to use in the future are mature tools that cost considerably less than advanced EUV or immersion DUV scanners. This is perhaps a concern for ASML, as the company is naturally interested in selling its more sophisticated and expensive equipment.

Missing from article is where they are selling which I assume is mostly Taiwan and America.

cl42•about 3 hours ago
Bloomberg[1] has a breakdown based on ASML filings. For Q2, Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan made up 77% of ASML's orders, with China representing another 14%. Given China is on the list, I imagine this includes non-EUV tech as well given the sanctions.

The fact that Europe has incredibly limited frontier chip making capability is the issue, though. Even if they can produce other chips, its position is not at all resilient.

[1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-09-22/asml-exec...

ChrisArchitect•about 2 hours ago
tehjoker•about 3 hours ago
I can't imagine it is cheap to get EUV machines these days. Maybe they don't want to get into a bidding war with America and Taiwan and are waiting for things to cool down?
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Culonavirus•about 3 hours ago
They don't call us Europoors for nothing
rvz•about 3 hours ago
Europe has no money.
joinHNtheysaid•about 2 hours ago
Cultures that make, europe has lost that,imported a ton of culture that takes. Same as the us, empire might might be a ressource curse in disguise.
468854259853•about 2 hours ago
Are you saying the surgeons and phamacists practicing their trade on the streets are not an enrichment?