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Discussion (57 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

pyridines•about 1 hour ago
> Before approving construction, I would want communities of humans to understand why the design works and what justifies confidence in its safety. I would hope that we all would.

Until very recently, I pored over every single line of code Claude generated with razor sharp scrutiny. I would usually catch issues with every response. I'm catching fewer problems these days. Maybe the model is just getting better, and maybe I'm being less careful while under pressure to ship more and more often. But model capability is obviously growing. Even back in March, you could tell it "give me a function that adds two numbers" and you could be 100% confident that it would write the correct function. There was almost no point in looking at the code. Since then, the complexity floor of problems in the category "this is so simple that the model couldn't possibly get it wrong" is rising, and with it, my cognitive surrender to the model is increasing too. Why check it? It's obviously going to be correct.

If AI designs a terawatt fusion plant, then of course we're going to meticulously pore over every detail to ensure safety, reliability, efficiency, whatever. If we find no flaws in the design whatsoever, will we be less careful about the second one? The third one? What about the ten thousandth one? Will "a nuclear fusion plant" become something that models couldn't possibly get wrong?

Terence Tao is arguing that the human involvement in research is crucial, but doesn't convincingly justify why, in my opinion. He says that "human agency is a value of fundamental importance" and that we will need to build "thriving human communities that can understand [AI ideas] together" - not for the sake of correctness, which AI may surpass us on, but for, I guess, the possibility of reclaiming human meaning and purpose. I don't disagree with this at all, but it's not an argument, it's a statement of values. Unfortunately, the stark reality is that if AI does surpass humans, it will become the economically dominant strategy to not verify them and not double check them, but to just do whatever they say. This seems like a great way to raise p(doom). But as the models get better and better, and as I'm scrutinizing Claude's output less and less... I just hope that there are more Terence Taos out there than people like me.

etrautmann•about 1 hour ago
Nit, but Terrence Tao did not write this article, it’s a guest post.
xtracto•about 1 hour ago
Imagine the first time electric calculators calculated the square root of 5. I'm sure people would verify again and again if what the circuits calculated was right.

Then in the 80s, you presses 2 buttons and there you had it in your classroom without thinking twice if the electricity arrived correctly at the transistors.

How crazy will the world be once our [current gen] ANN are like that!

What an amazing thought.

vinyl7•about 1 hour ago
Given the disappointing levels of intellectual decay that our current technology has thrust upon civilization, I only see humans reverting back to neanderthal levels of intelligence in short time with the advent of AI
Seattle3503•about 1 hour ago
> One wonders whether a generation that demands instant satisfaction of all its needs and instant solution of the world's problems will produce anything of lasting value. Such a generation, even when equipped with the most modern technology, will be essentially primitive — it will stand in awe of nature, and submit to the tutelage of medicine men.

- Eric Hoffer

LoganDark•about 1 hour ago
The more likely AI becomes to produce working code every time, the more likely it will become that a one-in-a-thousand or one-in-a-million error goes unnoticed at generation time. It sucks.
ipsod•about 1 hour ago
Bugs have existed since before AI, though. It's remarkable how bad a lot of very successful software has always been.
MattGaiser•about 1 hour ago
Sure, but we currently find that acceptable. Codebases are full of such bugs.
metalspot•33 minutes ago
There is a failure to understand that the process is the result. You don't study mathematics or computer science and information theory to produce commodities. You study them to transform your mind. The output of an LLM is useless without a human mind to comprehend it. We can have Super Intelligence, but if humans are incapable of comprehending it, it is just another useless dead artifact. Practice, applied over a lifetime, is what creates the capability for comprehension. Asking an LLM to give you an answer creates an artifact. Humans being humans, most of their requests boil down to "make me rich without having to work for it," so the request itself is paradoxical and impossible to satisfy. Philosophers have only been saying this for all of human history, so don't hold your breath for any breakthroughs.
delis-thumbs-7e•7 minutes ago
Precisely. I don’t really care whether LLM’s can produce code more and better than me. I learn languages, program and study computation to understand better the world we live in. Being a human being means increasingly being technologically augmented. To have any deep understanding of that world requires deep understanding of maths, physics, programming etc. that you can only gather by doing those things and solving problems with your meat brain.

There’s a Twitch-streamer Tsoding who programs on C for fun calling it “recreational coding”. Maybe human programming will be a form of art in the future, virtually useless for big corporations to make money. I don’t care, I love it anyway.

charcircuit•5 minutes ago
>The output of an LLM is useless without a human mind to comprehend it

This is like saying software is useless if the user doesn't read the source code of it. This what happens >99.99999% a person uses software. People want to be entertained or have their problems solved.

gjskngnf•9 minutes ago
> The output of an LLM is useless without a human mind to comprehend it.

I don’t understand mRNA vaccines, but they are useful to me. The output of an LLM could at least in theory be the design to a major technological advancement, and its implementation with automatic tooling. We don’t have to understand that for it to be useful.

echelon•31 minutes ago
> You don't study mathematics or computer science and information theory to produce commodities. You study them to transform your mind.

That's nonsense. Of course you study them to meet demand.

siavosh•about 2 hours ago
Like most of us I go back and forth between sheer optimism and fear for the future that AI may usher in. Recently I started vibe coding a fun video game with my ten year old. The experience is different than my work because it’s been such a joy to basically have a personal genie in a bottle help me make some personal art with a loved one regardless of either of our skill sets. The concept the author of this post is arguing now resonates with me more than it would have a few weeks ago. The sheer surface area that AI can create in our intellectual life is limitless and needs humans to explore. There can never be enough of us in that sense. Whether it’s as validators or creators.
willtemperley•about 1 hour ago
> The sheer surface area that AI can create in our intellectual life is limitless

I agree with this statement, though I think this Brave New World is incredibly exciting to some and dystopian to others. The former group might include those that value the intellectual process above financial reward and status.

The flip side is there are many people, especially in tech, where their area of expertise has evaporated along with their lucrative and previously high status careers. It used to be possible to have a technical job by essentially following recipes and it turns out AI is far better at that than a human.

The linked article lays out why human understanding of mathematical models remains essential and I think the same applies to software. We're gonna need more software engineers who are able to think critically.

demibabs•about 2 hours ago
Certainly humans can enjoy exploring such things, but will they really be needed?
dozerly•about 2 hours ago
What does needed even mean? To produce shareholder value? Maybe not. To explore thoughts and ideas humans have for fun? Certainly
awepofiwaop•about 2 hours ago
To make money in order to eat food and have a home.
cjfd•about 1 hour ago
If we accept that AI is going to do all of these things humans will be superfluous and will just be optimized away. It looks a lot like we see the birth of silicon based life by the efforts of carbon based life. Carbon based life will die and it will not even be because AI decided to kill it, it will be because feeding and watering it was less important than other concerns. Bacteria may continue to exist, though.
imranq•about 1 hour ago
The main reason to learn something is actually being able to communicate in the language of that subject. There are complex ideas in math that cannot be easily captured by the language of other fields. Pepole who don't study math cannot even understand what a worthwhile goal in math even is or how it could be useful to other fields.

You can't simply prompt a model to be "better" when "better" isnt even properly defined

macrolocal•about 2 hours ago
Russell once remarked that all of mathematics would be trivial to a sufficiently intelligent being. It builds conceptual tools for limited minds, that lets them understand far beyond their natural reach.

In a world with ASI, having that capacity is vital.

bluejay2387•about 1 hour ago
"I have in mind something like a “deployable intellectual reserve”: communities of mathematically sophisticated people that humanity can call upon to help understand consequential AI-enabled breakthroughs. " -- I can't be the only one who thought about the scene where the scientists ask Deep Thought the ultimate question...
calf•32 minutes ago
I think this is the most beautiful letter on the subject I've read all year, it brought a tear to my eye. It's like reading those famous STEM letters/essays from history.
algorithm314•about 2 hours ago
Life is all about tradeoffs. Mathematics have no tradeoffs. We need more engineers.
inopinatus•about 2 hours ago
Life is all about purpose. Mathematicians are instead concerned with meaning. We need more philosophers.
inopinatus•about 2 hours ago
> Imagine that a future AI system proposes a radically new design for a one terawatt nuclear fusion power plant

This is an unfortunate example to choose, being as it is entirely confounded by the canonical illustration of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_triviality.

etrautmann•about 1 hour ago
How is that relevant at all?
atleastoptimal•about 2 hours ago
It would be nice to have more mathematicians, but we don't need more. Once AI math goes so far beyond human abilities, any human involvement is like an ant trying to understand quantum physics
dgacmu•about 1 hour ago
We've been those ants for a million years, and only in the last 100 did we start to wrap our heads around quantum physics. We are the purpose behind creating LLMs. There's plenty in the universe we don't understand, and it's very human to keep striving to do so.

If you believe that math is discovering, it's natural to think that all of that AI math already exists and is just waiting for us to find ways to discover and understand it.

Don't write us out quite yet. :)

jahbrewski•about 2 hours ago
Even if that happens, what’s the point if there’s no human involvement? AI doing math for math’s sake? And doing what with it?
itishappy•about 1 hour ago
> AI doing math for math’s sake? And doing what with it?

Stuff! Inscrutable stuff, maybe, but that's not "doing math for math's sake."

rudy6912•about 1 hour ago
> AI doing math for math's sake?

Yes, why not? And, of course, AI doing math for AI.

We may not be needed forever...

alex_sf•about 2 hours ago
I don't understand how to make a modern CPU. I'm not involved in the manufacturing of it. From my perspective, there may as well not be any human involvement. I can still use the resulting chip (in an larger system of other things I can't make and wasn't involved in) to argue with you on the internet.

It becomes another abstraction, really. As long as we can use it for something useful, it's still valuable.

awepofiwaop•about 1 hour ago
At some level of abstraction it's all built around allowing you to do some work/play/etc that you understand. Some of that work allows you to make money and eat food.

If the LLM is operating at such a high level that it never actually constructs a useful product for humans to use, then how will that be good for humanity?

gaigalas•about 2 hours ago
Need? We don't need lots of things, including computers. We did well without them for hundreds of thousands of years.

We want to understand. Quantum physics, mathematics, how stuff works. Ants don't.

That want is not a given, not all of us have that drive. In fact, very few of us have it. So far though, it seems multiple disconnected civilizations learned to keep that trait going instead of suppressing it and focusing only on practical ant-like activities.

rvz•about 2 hours ago
> Once AI math goes so far beyond human abilities, any human involvement is like an ant trying to understand quantum physics

This makes no sense whatsoever.

We need more, because there will always be far more difficult problems yet to be discovered and solved, and that means, we certainly need expert humans to define and verify them.

If you cannot even explain the problem you are facing, not only you don't understand it, but you certainly would not be able to know if the AI solved your problem correctly.

WarmWash•about 2 hours ago
>and that means we need expert humans to define and verify them.

And this will be true for how long? 3-4 months?

rvz•about 2 hours ago
As long as there are problems to discover and solve, which is forever.

The risk of liability is a social problem that is far more difficult to be solved with technical solutions even with AI.

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